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On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:07 Sneakyz wrote:On May 25 2012 06:57 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 06:56 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 06:54 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 06:49 NB wrote:On May 25 2012 06:37 NEOtheONE wrote: [quote]
Why can't i get gear that maxes both? If I keep finding gear that gives me better Vit and Int I'm going to keep using it. Heck I'm going to have 5800+ dps next level up. Seriously, I'll play the game how I want because I think going strict stereotypical glass cannon is stupid. That's my opinion, and I am sticking to it. well dont just straight up dis his side of the argument like that... this is a discussion thread and if you just gona do things your way, why would you post here? On topic: there is 1 reason why mass HP doesnt work: Elites in Inferno all has enrages timer. As far as i know, not only it put the champions you kill in 1 shot KO mode, there is also a buff placer on you that deal %dmg over time based on your HP. This means that if you cant kill them fast enough, you will die. Not even counting that bosses also has soft enrage timer (butcher fire floor for example) make it even harder to tank. The only usage of a tank wizard is to mass tank disable in a party full of Demon hunter but that isnt really efficient simply bc tank classes such as Barb and Monk has much better skills/mechanics for tank play (heal, increase party armor HP etc...) and WD has a better disable play. Thats my 2cents  The other big thing being that enemies in later inferno acts hit for so much that it doesn't matter how much vit you have, you still need force armor, which makes hp more ineffective. You want enough to make FA work properly so you're not oneshotted, everything else is just a waste since you'll still always be three shotted (I'd love to see a wizard who can get enough vit and resistance to not need FA on inferno act 3-4, I doubt it's possible even with best in slot). 'Enough to make FA work properly' might as well mean 'as much vit as possible' when stuff is hitting near 100k. 35% of 100k is 35k, which is easily attainable without going all-out vit. The mobs before azmodan ovekill me for 60k+ so GL with that  Well, how much vit do you have? How much armor, how much resistance? Which is obviously besides the point anyway, going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. You can get other mods on items besides vit you know. I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target.
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On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:07 Sneakyz wrote:On May 25 2012 06:57 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 06:56 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 06:54 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 06:49 NB wrote:[quote] well dont just straight up dis his side of the argument like that... this is a discussion thread and if you just gona do things your way, why would you post here? On topic: there is 1 reason why mass HP doesnt work: Elites in Inferno all has enrages timer. As far as i know, not only it put the champions you kill in 1 shot KO mode, there is also a buff placer on you that deal %dmg over time based on your HP. This means that if you cant kill them fast enough, you will die. Not even counting that bosses also has soft enrage timer (butcher fire floor for example) make it even harder to tank. The only usage of a tank wizard is to mass tank disable in a party full of Demon hunter but that isnt really efficient simply bc tank classes such as Barb and Monk has much better skills/mechanics for tank play (heal, increase party armor HP etc...) and WD has a better disable play. Thats my 2cents  The other big thing being that enemies in later inferno acts hit for so much that it doesn't matter how much vit you have, you still need force armor, which makes hp more ineffective. You want enough to make FA work properly so you're not oneshotted, everything else is just a waste since you'll still always be three shotted (I'd love to see a wizard who can get enough vit and resistance to not need FA on inferno act 3-4, I doubt it's possible even with best in slot). 'Enough to make FA work properly' might as well mean 'as much vit as possible' when stuff is hitting near 100k. 35% of 100k is 35k, which is easily attainable without going all-out vit. The mobs before azmodan ovekill me for 60k+ so GL with that  Well, how much vit do you have? How much armor, how much resistance? Which is obviously besides the point anyway, going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. You can get other mods on items besides vit you know. I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target.
On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did.
Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing.
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On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:07 Sneakyz wrote:On May 25 2012 06:57 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 06:56 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 06:54 Tobberoth wrote: [quote] The other big thing being that enemies in later inferno acts hit for so much that it doesn't matter how much vit you have, you still need force armor, which makes hp more ineffective. You want enough to make FA work properly so you're not oneshotted, everything else is just a waste since you'll still always be three shotted (I'd love to see a wizard who can get enough vit and resistance to not need FA on inferno act 3-4, I doubt it's possible even with best in slot). 'Enough to make FA work properly' might as well mean 'as much vit as possible' when stuff is hitting near 100k. 35% of 100k is 35k, which is easily attainable without going all-out vit. The mobs before azmodan ovekill me for 60k+ so GL with that  Well, how much vit do you have? How much armor, how much resistance? Which is obviously besides the point anyway, going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. You can get other mods on items besides vit you know. I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, then you find an item which raises your damage a lot while lowering your HP. If you decide to not go for that damage item, you're doing it wrong. You're getting twoshotted regardless, so why gimp your dps? Obviously, you shouldn't remove vit gear just to lower your HP, that's pretty damn obvious.
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On May 25 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:07 Sneakyz wrote:On May 25 2012 06:57 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 06:56 Dfgj wrote: [quote] 'Enough to make FA work properly' might as well mean 'as much vit as possible' when stuff is hitting near 100k.
35% of 100k is 35k, which is easily attainable without going all-out vit. The mobs before azmodan ovekill me for 60k+ so GL with that  Well, how much vit do you have? How much armor, how much resistance? Which is obviously besides the point anyway, going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. You can get other mods on items besides vit you know. I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, I was going on the assumption that someone in Inferno would want items with a ton of vit AND a ton of int.
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Lalalaland34490 Posts
Wish I had the gold for that, right now I'm stuck with choosing either mediocre in both areas or good in one and meh in the other.
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On May 25 2012 07:24 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:07 Sneakyz wrote:On May 25 2012 06:57 Tobberoth wrote: [quote] 35% of 100k is 35k, which is easily attainable without going all-out vit. The mobs before azmodan ovekill me for 60k+ so GL with that  Well, how much vit do you have? How much armor, how much resistance? Which is obviously besides the point anyway, going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. You can get other mods on items besides vit you know. I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, I was going on the assumption that someone in Inferno would want items with a ton of vit AND a ton of int. I would want items with a ton of vit, a ton of int, a ton of crit chance, a ton of magic find, a ton of armor and a ton of everything else. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, you have to weigh the benefits, and if you have a 4:1 ratio, chances are you're weighing them incorrectly, or you had bad luck with the gear.
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On May 25 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:24 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:07 Sneakyz wrote:[quote] The mobs before azmodan ovekill me for 60k+ so GL with that  Well, how much vit do you have? How much armor, how much resistance? Which is obviously besides the point anyway, going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. You can get other mods on items besides vit you know. I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, I was going on the assumption that someone in Inferno would want items with a ton of vit AND a ton of int. I would want items with a ton of vit, a ton of int, a ton of crit chance, a ton of magic find, a ton of armor and a ton of everything else. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, you have to weigh the benefits, and if you have a 4:1 ratio, chances are you're weighing them incorrectly, or you had bad luck with the gear. Who's said anything about a 4:1 ratio? That's more common for players who aren't in Inferno yet, because weapon damage scales up dramatically at level 60 but you can get pretty high vit prior to that.
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On May 25 2012 07:28 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:24 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: [quote] Well, how much vit do you have? How much armor, how much resistance?
Which is obviously besides the point anyway, going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. You can get other mods on items besides vit you know. I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, I was going on the assumption that someone in Inferno would want items with a ton of vit AND a ton of int. I would want items with a ton of vit, a ton of int, a ton of crit chance, a ton of magic find, a ton of armor and a ton of everything else. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, you have to weigh the benefits, and if you have a 4:1 ratio, chances are you're weighing them incorrectly, or you had bad luck with the gear. Who's said anything about a 4:1 ratio? That's more common for players who aren't in Inferno yet, because weapon damage scales up dramatically at level 60 but you can get pretty high vit prior to that. The whole argument is about the dude who said said he had a buttload of HP and very little damage. All that was pointed out was that in inferno, you'll be a glass cannon no matter what gear you chose since wizards do not have the survivability to tank damage.
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On May 25 2012 07:30 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:24 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Dfgj wrote: [quote] You can get other mods on items besides vit you know. I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, I was going on the assumption that someone in Inferno would want items with a ton of vit AND a ton of int. I would want items with a ton of vit, a ton of int, a ton of crit chance, a ton of magic find, a ton of armor and a ton of everything else. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, you have to weigh the benefits, and if you have a 4:1 ratio, chances are you're weighing them incorrectly, or you had bad luck with the gear. Who's said anything about a 4:1 ratio? That's more common for players who aren't in Inferno yet, because weapon damage scales up dramatically at level 60 but you can get pretty high vit prior to that. The whole argument is about the dude who said said he had a buttload of HP and very little damage. All that was pointed out was that in inferno, you'll be a glass cannon no matter what gear you chose since wizards do not have the survivability to tank damage. That dude was level 51, and thus isn't a valid example for any discussion about Inferno, because high survivability does work in NM/Hell, and sub-60 characters can't generally get weaponry that pushes their dps sky-high.
The second guy you quoted, who said he had 40khp in Inferno, is more relevant - and you can easily get 40k+ dps with 40khp anyway. My point there is he's not sacrificing DPS to get that much HP, which is why I take issue with your statement.
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On May 25 2012 07:31 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:30 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:24 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote: [quote] I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, I was going on the assumption that someone in Inferno would want items with a ton of vit AND a ton of int. I would want items with a ton of vit, a ton of int, a ton of crit chance, a ton of magic find, a ton of armor and a ton of everything else. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, you have to weigh the benefits, and if you have a 4:1 ratio, chances are you're weighing them incorrectly, or you had bad luck with the gear. Who's said anything about a 4:1 ratio? That's more common for players who aren't in Inferno yet, because weapon damage scales up dramatically at level 60 but you can get pretty high vit prior to that. The whole argument is about the dude who said said he had a buttload of HP and very little damage. All that was pointed out was that in inferno, you'll be a glass cannon no matter what gear you chose since wizards do not have the survivability to tank damage. That dude was level 51 -_- Seriously, what's your point? O.o
EDIT to your edit: Indeed, which was my point all along.
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On May 25 2012 07:30 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:24 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Dfgj wrote: [quote] You can get other mods on items besides vit you know. I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, I was going on the assumption that someone in Inferno would want items with a ton of vit AND a ton of int. I would want items with a ton of vit, a ton of int, a ton of crit chance, a ton of magic find, a ton of armor and a ton of everything else. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, you have to weigh the benefits, and if you have a 4:1 ratio, chances are you're weighing them incorrectly, or you had bad luck with the gear. Who's said anything about a 4:1 ratio? That's more common for players who aren't in Inferno yet, because weapon damage scales up dramatically at level 60 but you can get pretty high vit prior to that. The whole argument is about the dude who said said he had a buttload of HP and very little damage. All that was pointed out was that in inferno, you'll be a glass cannon no matter what gear you chose since wizards do not have the survivability to tank damage.
You mean me who had a ton of HP and more than decent damage because I'm still only on nightmare difficulty. If I can keep finding gear with 90+ vit and Int then I am going to keep buying it. I honestly have no clue how the ratio turned out to be 4 to 1 considering I have 1003 Int and only 770ish Vit.
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On May 25 2012 07:32 Tobberoth wrote:Seriously, what's your point? O.o
because the difference in gear even between level 55 and 60 items is immense.
I mean, a 20k lvl 60 weapon is easily higher dps wise than a 250k lvl 55 weapon. so, the point is that if you aren't in inferno yet, you shouldn't talk about what will or will / not work frankly.
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On May 25 2012 07:34 red_b wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:32 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:31 Dfgj wrote:
That dude was level 51 -_- Seriously, what's your point? O.o because the difference in gear even between level 55 and 60 items is immense. I mean, a 20k lvl 60 weapon is easily higher dps wise than a 250k lvl 55 weapon. so, the point is that if you aren't in inferno yet, you shouldn't talk about what will or will / not work frankly. Exactly. Which is why it's weird how he's saying he doesn't like glass cannon builds, when he hasn't played inferno, which is where you're forced to be a glass cannon, which was my argument from the start.
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On May 25 2012 07:34 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:30 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:24 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:11 Tobberoth wrote: [quote] I know, which is why I specifically mentioned resistance... My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, I was going on the assumption that someone in Inferno would want items with a ton of vit AND a ton of int. I would want items with a ton of vit, a ton of int, a ton of crit chance, a ton of magic find, a ton of armor and a ton of everything else. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, you have to weigh the benefits, and if you have a 4:1 ratio, chances are you're weighing them incorrectly, or you had bad luck with the gear. Who's said anything about a 4:1 ratio? That's more common for players who aren't in Inferno yet, because weapon damage scales up dramatically at level 60 but you can get pretty high vit prior to that. The whole argument is about the dude who said said he had a buttload of HP and very little damage. All that was pointed out was that in inferno, you'll be a glass cannon no matter what gear you chose since wizards do not have the survivability to tank damage. You mean me who had a ton of HP and more than decent damage because I'm still only on nightmare difficulty. If I can keep finding gear with 90+ vit and Int then I am going to keep buying it. I honestly have no clue how the ratio turned out to be 4 to 1 considering I have 1003 Int and only 770ish Vit. It's pretty normal because you can't get a weapon with high base damage. I was on that sort of ratio until I finished hell (9k~ dps, 36k hp~), and then when you get inferno weapons and lv60 items, your damage catches up fast.
In NM/Hell, having more hp than damage isn't a major tradeoff, it's simply a result of equipment limitations.
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On May 25 2012 07:36 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:34 NEOtheONE wrote:On May 25 2012 07:30 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:24 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:12 Dfgj wrote: [quote] My point is that having high vit isn't going to mean you have low dps. Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, I was going on the assumption that someone in Inferno would want items with a ton of vit AND a ton of int. I would want items with a ton of vit, a ton of int, a ton of crit chance, a ton of magic find, a ton of armor and a ton of everything else. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, you have to weigh the benefits, and if you have a 4:1 ratio, chances are you're weighing them incorrectly, or you had bad luck with the gear. Who's said anything about a 4:1 ratio? That's more common for players who aren't in Inferno yet, because weapon damage scales up dramatically at level 60 but you can get pretty high vit prior to that. The whole argument is about the dude who said said he had a buttload of HP and very little damage. All that was pointed out was that in inferno, you'll be a glass cannon no matter what gear you chose since wizards do not have the survivability to tank damage. You mean me who had a ton of HP and more than decent damage because I'm still only on nightmare difficulty. If I can keep finding gear with 90+ vit and Int then I am going to keep buying it. I honestly have no clue how the ratio turned out to be 4 to 1 considering I have 1003 Int and only 770ish Vit. It's pretty normal because you can't get a weapon with high base damage. I was on that sort of ratio until I finished hell (9k~ dps, 36k hp~), and then when you get inferno weapons and lv60 items, your damage catches up fast. In NM/Hell, having more hp than damage isn't a major tradeoff, it's simply a result of equipment limitations. I don't really agree with that. It's true that it's natural to get far more hp than damage because of equipment limitations, but it's still perfectly possible to do major tradeoffs, if you want. My friend had about 18k dps when he finished hell, probably less HP than that, because he bought AH gear with a ton of damage but little survivability (because there were no items with both/the items with both were far to expensive).
Bear in mind, this is not what I recommended our lvl 51 friend to do, I said his hp was probably overkill (not as in "it's way too much you need to lower it", but as in "this is more than enough") and that he should probably focus on getting his damage up from this point on. That doesn't mean he shouldn't use items with high damage and high vit on, it means he shouldn't be afraid to use items with a lot of damage and little vit on, because he already has a good amount of HP.
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Yeah, but that's my point. Below Inferno gear and top levels, to get a high stat, you have to trade off because you can only get so much on your level of gear (equipment limitations). Above that, you can reasonably aim to get both high dps and high hp, and we're really talking about Inferno here.
It doesn't cut into dps much to get enough health/armor/resist to survive any single hit, and with that noted, there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't. Unless you like getting 1-shotted by a gentle breeze.
As for the level 51 guy, I did Hell with a 4:1 ish ratio easily because I wouldn't die to things, and my 9k dps was enough to easily take down Diablo. Most of his 'catching-up' of damage is probably going to come from when he can get level 60 weapons and armor, where a 4:1 ratio will become next to impossible anyways (maybe if he intentionally buys items with vit and dex or something ._.)
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On May 25 2012 07:45 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:36 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:34 NEOtheONE wrote:On May 25 2012 07:30 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:24 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2012 07:21 Dfgj wrote:On May 25 2012 07:16 Tobberoth wrote: [quote] Which I never claimed either. I'm saying, if you have 4:1 ratio survivability/damage, you're probably overstacking on survivability which isn't going to help. If you can have perfect in both, that's obviously awesome, but survivability should be seen as an awesome bonus, not as the target. On May 25 2012 07:10 Tobberoth wrote: going allout vit isn't going to help make you less of a glass cannon, you'll still be two/three shotted, but have way less dps. Uh, yeah, you did. Anyways, having enough HP/resist to actually survive hits that would otherwise 1hit you is a pretty useful thing. Yes, because I'm talking about a realistic scenario where you have tons of vit on your gear and little int, I was going on the assumption that someone in Inferno would want items with a ton of vit AND a ton of int. I would want items with a ton of vit, a ton of int, a ton of crit chance, a ton of magic find, a ton of armor and a ton of everything else. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, you have to weigh the benefits, and if you have a 4:1 ratio, chances are you're weighing them incorrectly, or you had bad luck with the gear. Who's said anything about a 4:1 ratio? That's more common for players who aren't in Inferno yet, because weapon damage scales up dramatically at level 60 but you can get pretty high vit prior to that. The whole argument is about the dude who said said he had a buttload of HP and very little damage. All that was pointed out was that in inferno, you'll be a glass cannon no matter what gear you chose since wizards do not have the survivability to tank damage. You mean me who had a ton of HP and more than decent damage because I'm still only on nightmare difficulty. If I can keep finding gear with 90+ vit and Int then I am going to keep buying it. I honestly have no clue how the ratio turned out to be 4 to 1 considering I have 1003 Int and only 770ish Vit. It's pretty normal because you can't get a weapon with high base damage. I was on that sort of ratio until I finished hell (9k~ dps, 36k hp~), and then when you get inferno weapons and lv60 items, your damage catches up fast. In NM/Hell, having more hp than damage isn't a major tradeoff, it's simply a result of equipment limitations. I don't really agree with that. It's true that it's natural to get far more hp than damage because of equipment limitations, but it's still perfectly possible to do major tradeoffs, if you want. My friend had about 18k dps when he finished hell, probably less HP than that, because he bought AH gear with a ton of damage but little survivability (because there were no items with both/the items with both were far to expensive). Bear in mind, this is not what I recommended our lvl 51 friend to do, I said his hp was probably overkill (not as in "it's way too much you need to lower it", but as in "this is more than enough") and that he should probably focus on getting his damage up from this point on. That doesn't mean he shouldn't use items with high damage and high vit on, it means he shouldn't be afraid to use items with a lot of damage and little vit on, because he already has a good amount of HP.
Thank you for clarifying that. My plan is to get gear with high Vit and Int as long as possible. What I am looking into is armor with multiple sockets and high vit and int. I got beat out on AH a couple times already on some really nice 2-3 socket gear with about 80-90 Vit and 80-90 Int.
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On May 25 2012 07:49 Dfgj wrote: Yeah, but that's my point. Below Inferno gear and top levels, to get a high stat, you have to trade off because you can only get so much on your level of gear (equipment limitations). Above that, you can reasonably aim to get both high dps and high hp, and we're really talking about Inferno here.
It doesn't cut into dps much to get enough health/armor/resist to survive any single hit, and with that noted, there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't. Unless you like getting 1-shotted by a gentle breeze. Absolutely, but here's the thing: 22k HP is enough to never get oneshotted in Act 1 Inferno (unless by special things like the butchers megasmack after a hook, which can still be blocked by diamond armor). So if you're in a situation where you have 22k HP and you get two new items for the same slot, one raises your dps by 2k, one raises your hp by 2k, you should always pick the dps item, because it gives far more value for your money. If you then get an item which raises both dps AND hp by 2k, it's the obvious choice. It's just far less likely to get such an awesome item, so I think it's a good thing if people go into Inferno with the mindset that they will have to go for a glass cannon build where they should prioritize dps-heavy items over survivability-heavy items (as long as you're not getting oneshotted, of course).
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what are good farming spots in inferno for wizards? a1 inferno seems to give shit items
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On May 25 2012 07:52 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:49 Dfgj wrote: Yeah, but that's my point. Below Inferno gear and top levels, to get a high stat, you have to trade off because you can only get so much on your level of gear (equipment limitations). Above that, you can reasonably aim to get both high dps and high hp, and we're really talking about Inferno here.
It doesn't cut into dps much to get enough health/armor/resist to survive any single hit, and with that noted, there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't. Unless you like getting 1-shotted by a gentle breeze. Absolutely, but here's the thing: 22k HP is enough to never get oneshotted in Act 1 Inferno (unless by special things like the butchers megasmack after a hook, which can still be blocked by diamond armor). So if you're in a situation where you have 22k HP and you get two new items for the same slot, one raises your dps by 2k, one raises your hp by 2k, you should always pick the dps item, because it gives far more value for your money. If you then get an item which raises both dps AND hp by 2k, it's the obvious choice. It's just far less likely to get such an awesome item, so I think it's a good thing if people go into Inferno with the mindset that they will have to go for a glass cannon build where they should prioritize dps-heavy items over survivability-heavy items (as long as you're not getting oneshotted, of course). That's reasonable, for Act 1, I agree.
I'm referring more to A3/A4 where 40k hp gets oneshotted and you're really aiming to buy items that boost both stats anyways.
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