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On September 10 2012 09:03 Ig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 02:23 InoyouS2 wrote:On September 09 2012 23:39 oneofthem wrote:
if you are aiming for fast runs tankiness is almost as important as dps and gets even more important at the upper ranges. each death is very costly. either the run is abandoned or you have to backtrack a lot. without tankiness you also have to kite a lot, can't use toc aggressively, and lose a lot of effective dps. there's no exact numbers but i'd say you should be comfortable vaulting through mobs without fear of dying.
good places to get survivability for cheap:
look for phys resist on all types of gear.
belts and shoulders can give high resist and vit if you trade 30 dex.
dead man legacy quiver
+vit on pants and cloak are very cheap
+vit on weapon if you can get a good deal
of course, you also need a nats set to fully take advantage of the tankiness, not to spam gloom but to spam vault and go faster through the content. This is pretty silly IMO, since all it gives you is maybe the ability to tank 1-2 hits and then you are dead, while the DPS sacrifice is usually very high unless you are willing to pay something in the region of 40-50m. DPS is way more important than health/AR, DH isn't meant to be able to tank hits (at least by how Blizzard has been nerfing tank builds and skills). Glass cannon is generally the only way to go. I don't think glass cannon is the way to go. Rubberbanding is still an issue and from the way the game has changed, it promotes gearing for some defense instead of pure glass cannon (mob ai improvements + dmg nerfs). Being able to take up to two hits is a huge quality of life buff in A3, especially for those without a nats 4p.
I agree completely, but some people will take "defensive stats are good for DH now" too far and invest way too heavily in it. DH's are still primarily about killing stuff before it kills you, and as long as you have maybe 70-80k EHP tops there's no reason to go beyond it. There's a plethora of defensive abilities that should keep you alive and happy if you're competent, so as long as you aren't getting one-shot, it really shouldn't be a problem. If you're burning all your disc trying to stay alive and still are dying, that doesn't mean you don't have enough health... it means you don't have enough DPS, and are running out of disc before you can burn stuff down (or you're using your disc poorly).
edit: it's also worth mentioning that if you're still farming A1 you can pretty much ignore defensive stats beyond ~40k EHP because everything except maybe leapers are so retardedly easy to avoid damage from and stacking pure DPS will net much faster farm runs as you work towards A3
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
adding further unwanted fire to this survivability for dh discussion, i made some changes that sums up to -10k hp and about 100 physical res for an increase of 30k dps and 12% movementspeed.
total dps non ss is 170k. total ehp 125k.
the experience is not as smooth as 140k dps and 220k ehp.
then again i was playing with some lag so will test in a lag free environment soon.
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How does anything have time to hit you with 170k dps wo ss?
And I have found extra movement speed invalueable, a must. It makes dodging projectiles a million times easier plus is a necessity for the most efficient farming.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
if you are waiting for stuff to hit you you are playing it wrong. it's not as fast as vaulting past mobs. time spent kiting is time spent not moving forward and finding new packs
i had to switch out some emeralds for vit gems
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I wonder how Good a 2 sock dex manticore really is? I' m currently using a 1350 dps socketed x-bow and dps calc only Shows me a 5-10k dps increase from a 1100 dps 2 sock 90% crit 180 dex manticore. A 1450 dps socket rare x-bow should wield about the Same dps increase and it costs like 5-10 times less?
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I play a non ToC style with Cluster Arrow (Loaded for Bear) and Gloom. Recently, I made 2 significant changes:
- Dropped the archery passive for vengence.
- Bought Inna's Temperance (the new Inna's Pants).
I must say, each of those changes were VERY significant and I estimate that it improved the speed of my runs by 15% EACH.
Taking vengence was a DPS drop but the continual replenishment of hatred allowed me to keep using Cluster Arrow for longer. Inna's Temperance made me feel my DH handled like a rolls royce lol - the movement speed and attack speed buff made WORLDS of difference. I'm now looking at experimenting with hatred regen gear.
I wouldn't recommend those changes for DHs struggling in Act3 though - Inna's Temperance is expensive and the vengence passive will only benefit once you feel your runs capped by your hatred.
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Yea, vengeance is pretty good especially for teams. I've been using it for a while. I was using hot pursuit before, but gets a bit pointless since u can't go above 25ms. Hope next patch allows it to go above 25ms cap.
How much is everyone paying for their inna's temperance? Thinking of dropping on one, but 50-60m puts me off.
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i paid 26m for my temperance, it's pretty ordinary, but i don't have the funds for a better one.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/op6pr.png)
speaking of attack speed boosting items, beckon sail seems to be widely neglected and i wonder why? money wise i am nowhere near having enough for the natalya cloak, and looked around for decent chests and found this one:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0G14Z.png)
sure it lacks defense, but imo the 7% ias and 1% cc are a decent trade for that. i paid 2.6m for this, and got almost the same DPS boost as with inna's temperance for 1/10th the cost.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i paid 80m for mine but that was a RAGEBUY after i lost out on an auction by being retarded
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Beckon Sail doesn't have movespeed, that's why its overlooked. A cheap semi-alternative to Inna's is The Inquisitor (if you don't want/need the IAS much) since it has the movespeed, high AR and hp regen. If you have a high budget you can get a pretty good one too with vit and a socket.
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i need another gear assessment if anyone is willing. i think i need to upgrade my weapon to one with crit and/or a socket, but not sure if that's the best thing to save for. suggestions appreciated. I'm poor (~1.5 M in the bank) but willing to save; just want to spend wisely. Thanks!
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/JustJonny-1849/hero/5453646
also, if anyone wants to add me pls do....vast majority of my bnet friends have stopped playing d3 but i still play almost every day 
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After not playing for almost 2 months, I need some help getting my build updated. I came back because of the new legendaries and paragon levels, but the balancing has changed a lot in the meantime and I want to be more efficient.
First things first:
Armory: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Alvin-2887/hero/281196
Full stats on d3up: http://d3up.com/b/917 (DPS doesn't include steady aim here)
My current farming route is Tower of the Cursed Level 1 all the way to Azmodan, killing Cydaea on the way, and takes me about 20 minutes if the elites work out, a little longer if I have to go somewhere else to get my 5th stack before I kill Cydaea. Depending on how much time I have I continue with Skycrown Battlements, Stonefort, Keep Depths 1-3 and then Fields of Slaughter all the way to Tower of the Cursed where I started. So pretty much a full clear in 1.5 to 2 hours.
Looking at other DHs I realize my DPS is really low, but I rarely die ever, and time spent lying on the ground or running back to the battle is time not spent shooting. My build was about surviving back when act 3 was really hard, and I'd like to keep it that way. Now I can't afford a Legacy Natalya's set, the ring is probably worth more than my entire gear, so I need to keep my eHP high.
This is where the hard part starts; I got about 30M gold to spend on upgrades. Should I be looking at small upgrades to my gear, or spend it all on a Manticore, new Natalya's, a DML or something similar? Or upgrade the gems in my current gear?
I currently have a shitty Stone of Jordan for killing elites, that I could upgrade to a good one, but I need a weapon with only physical damage to fully benefit from the elemental damage bonus, right?
I don't think movement speed should be a priority right now, I'm not running that much after all, once I blast through everything I'll look into that again.
Suggestions for improving my farming route or my skills are welcome, I'd like to find as many items as possible. I do MF swap for finishing blows on elites and bosses if it's safe to do so.
My DH friends, help me optimize my build, I just can't find any guides for a "tanky" DH that still work after 1.0.4 patch or don't require Legacy Natalya's set bonus.
ps: If you want to play with me, feel free to add me, I can tank.
Edit: I need to correct the time a little, just did a full clear of act 3 minus battlefields and whatever dungeon is there in 2.5 hours, died 6 times though. Should be plenty of room for improvements.
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On September 13 2012 23:57 Alvin853 wrote:After not playing for almost 2 months, I need some help getting my build updated. I came back because of the new legendaries and paragon levels, but the balancing has changed a lot in the meantime and I want to be more efficient. First things first: Armory: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Alvin-2887/hero/281196Full stats on d3up: http://d3up.com/b/917 (DPS doesn't include steady aim here) My current farming route is Tower of the Cursed Level 1 all the way to Azmodan, killing Cydaea on the way, and takes me about 20 minutes if the elites work out, a little longer if I have to go somewhere else to get my 5th stack before I kill Cydaea. Depending on how much time I have I continue with Skycrown Battlements, Stonefort, Keep Depths 1-3 and then Fields of Slaughter all the way to Tower of the Cursed where I started. So pretty much a full clear in 1.5 to 2 hours. Looking at other DHs I realize my DPS is really low, but I rarely die ever, and time spent lying on the ground or running back to the battle is time not spent shooting. My build was about surviving back when act 3 was really hard, and I'd like to keep it that way. Now I can't afford a Legacy Natalya's set, the ring is probably worth more than my entire gear, so I need to keep my eHP high. This is where the hard part starts; I got about 30M gold to spend on upgrades. Should I be looking at small upgrades to my gear, or spend it all on a Manticore, new Natalya's, a DML or something similar? Or upgrade the gems in my current gear? I currently have a shitty Stone of Jordan for killing elites, that I could upgrade to a good one, but I need a weapon with only physical damage to fully benefit from the elemental damage bonus, right? I don't think movement speed should be a priority right now, I'm not running that much after all, once I blast through everything I'll look into that again. Suggestions for improving my farming route or my skills are welcome, I'd like to find as many items as possible. I do MF swap for finishing blows on elites and bosses if it's safe to do so. My DH friends, help me optimize my build, I just can't find any guides for a "tanky" DH that still work after 1.0.4 patch or don't require Legacy Natalya's set bonus. ps: If you want to play with me, feel free to add me, I can tank. Edit: I need to correct the time a little, just did a full clear of act 3 minus battlefields and whatever dungeon is there in 2.5 hours, died 6 times though. Should be plenty of room for improvements.
Firstly, I disagree with 582 AR - I think it's too much. The reason why you can't find any guides for a "tanky DH" is because it's sort of an oxymoron. Tank DH is not played except by a very small minority.
If you want to play a "tanky DH", my advice is to cut your AR to around 300-350 and upgrade your DPS. You'll find that this will help keep you alive better since you'll kill things faster. In my personal experience (and I'm quite sure other DHs also experienced this), the difference between 250 AR and 500 AR is not really that much - it'll maybe buy you an extra hit or so. Thus, you'll need to kill the mobs whilst you still have disc for your gloom.
A tip is that you can get physical resist instead of AR since it's much cheaper. Thus, for instance, cut your AR to around 300-350 and then have like 450-500 physical resist. In my opinion, the "balanced" setup is around 200 AR with 350 physical resist, 3300 armor, 35k HP and 70k DPS. Once you hit this mark, you can upgrade/mix-match according to your playstyle preferences (i.e. upgrade evenly, or focus on DPS).
As for gear upgrades, in my opinion, if you're not sure what you want to do, you should spend small and experiment with different setups before you commit large sums of money. In your specific case, what I'll do straight away is update your quiver - they can roll up to 300 dex and vit now, and I'm sure you can get a much better one for like 1-2 mil.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
if you can get 600 ar wihtout sacrificing dps, keeping it above 120k or whatever, then it's very helpful. maybe the marginal value of going over 450 or something is not that big but one certainly can see the extreme difference between a dh that can tank 10 hits vs one that can tank 2 hits.
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On September 14 2012 11:33 oneofthem wrote:
if you can get 600 ar wihtout sacrificing dps, keeping it above 120k or whatever, then it's very helpful. maybe the marginal value of going over 450 or something is not that big but one certainly can see the extreme difference between a dh that can tank 10 hits vs one that can tank 2 hits.
Yeah, but not 600 AR with 41k DPS - of course, there is value in high AR, but it's not applicable in this case because of the low DPS.
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350 AR and 3300 armor is a joke. Stacking physical is a bad idea too because you shouldnt even be getting hit by physical attacks if you have ever micro'd in your life. You stack fire resist because the only things in the game that can touch you is mortars, desecrate and the fire pits in act 3. Armor takes care of any ranged attacks such as lurkers, quilbeasts and skeletal archers.
It isn't being "tanky", its being reasonable.
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On September 14 2012 12:39 TheRealDudeMan wrote:
350 AR and 3300 armor is a joke. Stacking physical is a bad idea too because you shouldnt even be getting hit by physical attacks if you have ever micro'd in your life. You stack fire resist because the only things in the game that can touch you is mortars, desecrate and the fire pits in act 3. Armor takes care of any ranged attacks such as lurkers, quilbeasts and skeletal archers.
It isn't being "tanky", its being reasonable.
You seem to lack understanding or you're hopelessly outdated - people have moved away from "completing inferno" to "farming as efficiently as possible". Stacking physical resist is very good because it is cheap and helps you to keep moving instead of kiting backwards. 350 AR is very good if you have high enough DPS/money to support it - hence I refer it as a "tanky DH". However, note that I gave guidelines on what I refer to as a "balanced DH".
Also, no one stacks fire resist since those are the easiest to avoid.
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I currently have 30k hp, 160 AR, and 85k dps. I am having a very easy time with A3. In A3, I find that there's nothing that hits you easily or makes you slow down your fire. Everything is dodgeable without needing to sacrifice dps. I die a few times per run, but it's mostly due to mistakes or being sloppy rather than my build. With higher skill, I think I can tone down to 1-2 deaths per run. So if you are just farming act 3, somewhere similar to my build where you are semi glass cannon is good. I tried a couple act 4 runs. Did not go well. Maybe it's because I don't know how to avoid everything yet, but there was a lot of things that just hit me and I'm not sure what to do about it.
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On September 14 2012 12:39 TheRealDudeMan wrote:
350 AR and 3300 armor is a joke. Stacking physical is a bad idea too because you shouldnt even be getting hit by physical attacks if you have ever micro'd in your life. You stack fire resist because the only things in the game that can touch you is mortars, desecrate and the fire pits in act 3. Armor takes care of any ranged attacks such as lurkers, quilbeasts and skeletal archers.
It isn't being "tanky", its being reasonable.
So you never get hit by Phase Beasts, but you get hit by mortars and desecration(???? I think i lose HP because of desecration once every decade). What you're saying makes little sense...
As for :Alvin853
After a quick glance of your gear I would mos def switch out some of it ASAP.
Helm = while it offers very good survival, it gives you only 75 DEX in forms of damage. For 1,5-2 mill you can get a helm with double that DEX and 4 crit with socket. You have 44,5k HP, so you can afford to lose some.
Amulet = nice defensive abilities, but not worth it sacrificing 40ish crit dmg and 5-6 crit chance for. These cost more than a 1-2 mill, but are worth the money, especially if you can save up for one with 100ish DEX.
Chest = 0 DEX without sockets just doesn't cut it. For under 1 mill, you can get one with 130ish or higher DEX and about the same vita, 3 sockets, but no resistance probably (which you don't need as much of as you have).
Left ring = replace the vita socket with a dex one.
Pants = same as chest.
These are the things I would probably switch out first, for a big DPS boost with some survivability loss. It won't cost insane amounts of gold either.
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On September 14 2012 15:31 McNulty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:39 TheRealDudeMan wrote:
350 AR and 3300 armor is a joke. Stacking physical is a bad idea too because you shouldnt even be getting hit by physical attacks if you have ever micro'd in your life. You stack fire resist because the only things in the game that can touch you is mortars, desecrate and the fire pits in act 3. Armor takes care of any ranged attacks such as lurkers, quilbeasts and skeletal archers.
It isn't being "tanky", its being reasonable. So you never get hit by Phase Beasts, but you get hit by mortars and desecration(???? I think i lose HP because of desecration once every decade). What you're saying makes little sense... As for : Alvin853After a quick glance of your gear I would mos def switch out some of it ASAP. Helm = while it offers very good survival, it gives you only 75 DEX in forms of damage. For 1,5-2 mill you can get a helm with double that DEX and 4 crit with socket. You have 44,5k HP, so you can afford to lose some. Amulet = nice defensive abilities, but not worth it sacrificing 40ish crit dmg and 5-6 crit chance for. These cost more than a 1-2 mill, but are worth the money, especially if you can save up for one with 100ish DEX. Chest = 0 DEX without sockets just doesn't cut it. For under 1 mill, you can get one with 130ish or higher DEX and about the same vita, 3 sockets, but no resistance probably (which you don't need as much of as you have). Left ring = replace the vita socket with a dex one. Pants = same as chest. These are the things I would probably switch out first, for a big DPS boost with some survivability loss. It won't cost insane amounts of gold either.
Also desecration is actually physical damage, not fire, and I'm not sure about mortar, might be physical too.
Anyway I tried following your suggestions, got new helm, amulet, chest, belt, bracers and a quiver, to bring me up to 70k dps even with my shitty Stone of Jordan for extra discipline and damage against elites. With the other ring it's about 75k, but I prefer the Stone of Jordan for now, does its job quite well. Armory should be updated now too.
I still got 390 all resist and over 600 physical resist right now, but already I'm starting to die a lot more, will have to get used to the new playstyle. My old build was from the time when elites reset if you die at all, so I would only die if I really messed up, but since blizzard decided to make the game really easy now I guess dying a couple times is ok.
Thanks everyone for helping, I'll do a run with the new gear later and report back how it works. Also I found a really good Skorn, might be able to expand my budget a little next week 
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EPT
