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On February 25 2011 03:53 Castrophy wrote:
I think you guys are overeacting on the league being invite only. I'm sure theese guys wont just pick any old player they want this league to be the best so in turn they will pick the best.
How can you objectively determine the top 50 players at this moment in time? Especially when you interact with some top players far more often than others? You can't. Hence why it isn't a legitimate event as the best players are not there, and people don't strive to become one of those 50 as there is no guarantee they will be noticed even if they develop the talent.
On February 25 2011 03:53 Castrophy wrote:
I think we all need to get behind this for the good of western e-sports. If this fails I can't see anyone else trying somthing this massive in a long long time.
You are right on their being consequences: NY Times article about what happened to the CGS players after their e-sports died from the league folding. Since this, talks of e-sports on American TV have drastically died down, moving more to a reality TV approach (WCG Ultimate Gamer and The Tester) as it did spook investors. You are wrong about supporting a bad league - a lesson those involved in CGS eventually realized. All of the fake support in the world won't cause a league to explode, rather, a league willing to accept and improve from criticism is what will make a good product and experience that others want to become a part of.
That isn't to say everyone's opinion is right - heck, mine might be completely incorrect as well. No one has a right to dictate exactly how the league should be run or what they should do with their money - all I can do is offer feedback. It is up to league to compile such feedback, determine what is valid and reasonable, and act accordingly to best grow their business. Basically - criticism should be welcome, albeit the personal / derogatory attacks I have seen against iNcontrol and the league as a whole are not something that should be encouraged or supported. That type of thing does serve no real purpose.
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On February 23 2011 16:58 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 12:16 MattyClutch wrote:On February 23 2011 10:20 cheesemaster wrote:On February 23 2011 10:07 Phanekim wrote:
this thing needs tv exposure. not just streaming.
being the psuedo businessman....try to have a professional layout so you can record and establish a video library. you can always show this on g4 or something. but from what i've learned...g4 is on the way out. however, g4 is perfect for sc just like spike is perfect for ufc. but g4 lost its direct tv contract. we'll see.
i am my assessment is that this will fail. i hate to be a downer but i give it 35 40 pct of sucess beyond season 4. Yea i could see the premium service covering the prize pool but there are so many other expenses i couldnt really see this going beyond season 4 just on the internet, gom got a tv deal for code s with anibox im sure that has really helped them out. The prize pool also seems quite high they should have started it out at 60k it still would have attracted a huge number of players. I really cant see a nearly all online tournament being able to generate anywhere near the same revenue as the gsl or even get on tv in this format. Change it to an all offline format and have qualifiers and this could really be a top tier tournament, i would support it 100% Well when they are budgeted for 3 years so they have plenty of time to work out a functional format, why start small?  they are budgeted for three seasons, wich will most likely occur over the course of a year or maybe a bit more im assuming, after listening to sotg and hearing they do have sponsors who havent been announced yet im not so worried about that. Liquidtyler pretty much expressed all of my concerns on state of the game, ive always liked him and respect his opinions. I think they are way too worried about collusion though. Honestly if they had qualifiers and did it in a similair format to the gsl this wouldnt be a problem tyler suggested this briefly but russ and incontrol seem pretty stuck on this format. Like tyler said though this format will pretty much ruin team growth, if the nasl becomes a top tier tournament that everyone wants to participate in, why would a good player want to join a team who had all their spots filled for the NASL this is going to mean more teams competing for sponsors meaning the sponsorship for esports will be spread alot thinner teams are already having trouble finding sponsors i can only see it getting worse if 5 man teams become the norm for north america, You want bigger more elite teams not small diluted teams. =( Its convenient for the NASL to do it this way but not so convenient for e-sports
I ment to say 3 seasons no idea why I put 3 years. Anyway all I was just saying they have enough to fix anything on a second and third go around. I.e. if <X> isn't working out right this time they can change it before season 2. They have some room for error and experimentation.
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On February 25 2011 03:53 Castrophy wrote:
I think you guys are overeacting on the league being invite only. I'm sure theese guys wont just pick any old player they want this league to be the best so in turn they will pick the best. I don't believe it says anywhere that if a player doesn't have a team he can't compete but only that they would prefer people to have a team.
I don't think we are overreacting whatsoever. The league will not be respected if the selection process is seen as arbitrary or biased. It is that simple.
The FAQ on NASL.tv clearly states that you must be on a team.
I think we all need to get behind this for the good of western e-sports. If this fails I can't see anyone else trying somthing this massive in a long long time.
We should only get behind it if it appears that it is going to be something that will benefit E-Sports in America. Frankly, everything that has been released so far makes me skeptical that this thing will really create a positive outcome. Therefore I don't want this to be the "One shot" for American E-Sports due to these reservations:
Unfair selection system:
50 people are chosen via some sort of selection committee. How much does anyone want to bet that the metric for deciding who gets in will not be publicly available?
There is a team requirement. This directly contradicts creating a "World Champion" because team membership has no bearing on one's eligibility towards being in the "Top 50". Excluding potential "Top 50" members based on such a rule clearly undercuts the premise. This also includes limiting the number of players who can participate in a given team. If a team is stacked with the very best players in the world, should they really be excluded?
Limitation of participation based on race. By allowing only a couple Koreans, well, this couldn't be more obvious. To be honest, I don't even think this is legal.
Lack of live broadcasting:
They directly damage much of their purpose due to this. In a league which is trying to emphasize the interaction of players, storyline, and the "drama" created by pitting teams against each other, who really thinks that a day delay helps that? How many of us as kids would try to race commercials to go to the bathroom so that we wouldn't miss anything during a football or hockey game? How many of us now have DVRs, and we tape the same games never to watch them?
My point is that live broadcasts create immersion and an opportunity for interaction. If you stay up for GSL there are sure to be tons of people typing away on TeamLiquid, /v/, or on GOM's chat/forums. This interaction brings the community together, and allows a large group to comment and share an experience as it happens. It also allows real feedback between the community and the casters, as Tasteosis takes questions to match winners, Day[9] has a Q&A, and TL streamers banter about random topics with their fans.
I grant that some people don't care in the slightest about this aspect. However, my contention is that when trying to appease potential customers, one needs to take into consideration that a large number of people do in fact care. Not to mention, MLG, Dreamhack, and GSL are all live. Yes, there are issues that arise from having a live format, but on balance it is minor in comparison. The "gold standard" is already set, and that is live broadcasting. Who here would rather Day[9] just released VODs instead of doing live dailies?
The emphasis on enhancing the videos etc. while creating a delay seems to cause a window dressing (production values) to come at the expense of substance (group interactivity). I think this is horrible, on balance. Why not do both like GSL? This would make both sides happy. Even if it has lower production value live, there are benefits that I feel are being ignored.
Some may say that it isn't fair to compare NASL to GSL because it is already established, but I disagree. NASL has had time to see how the other systems are run and distill that knowledge into something workable.
Questions regarding the interests of league management who are also members of participating teams:
The title is overly long, but the issue is going to be very contentious. Personally, I did not like the fact that Artosis participated in Season 1 of GSL because he was working for the company doing the tournament. I already understand that those things couldn't have been more different, but we must look at this as a business. Why do you think that businesses which offer contests and rewards normally exclude their own employees from winning? It is to prevent any perception of impropriety should someone win who is on their payroll.
The issue with Artosis both casting and playing seems rather minor compared to the conflicts of interest involved in the NASL. The spokesperson of the league, who also will be primary caster and is involved in the league's management and inception should not be allowed to participate as a player in the same league. End of.
This will dip back into the first issue, but are members of Fnatic, EG, Gosu Coaching, or any other group (or their friends) going to have a hand in the selection process for competitors? This is going to be a huge issue, as the lack of a fair and judicious seeding tournament will put a huge magnifying glass on how selections are made. Unless the process is perfectly transparent, then valid objections to the selection process can be, and likely will be raised. This, I feel above all, is the most important issue that needs to be addressed. The legitimacy of the league in the eyes of the spectators, participants, and fans is the foundation of everything that is trying to be accomplished.
I agree though with the OP in that I think if this does fail, then it will really screw US E-Sports for a very long time. Most of us skeptics are simply concerned, and I believe that those concerns are justified.
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Lack of live broadcasting:
They directly damage much of their purpose due to this. In a league which is trying to emphasize the interaction of players, storyline, and the "drama" created by pitting teams against each other, who really thinks that a day delay helps that? How many of us as kids would try to race commercials to go to the bathroom so that we wouldn't miss anything during a football or hockey game? How many of us now have DVRs, and we tape the same games never to watch them?
My point is that live broadcasts create immersion and an opportunity for interaction. If you stay up for GSL there are sure to be tons of people typing away on TeamLiquid, /v/, or on GOM's chat/forums. This interaction brings the community together, and allows a large group to comment and share an experience as it happens. It also allows real feedback between the community and the casters, as Tasteosis takes questions to match winners, Day[9] has a Q&A, and TL streamers banter about random topics with their fans.
I agree. I've never liked the artificial feel of it. Big VODs being streamed just feels like an inconvenient version of youtube.
Some may say that it isn't fair to compare NASL to GSL because it is already established, but I disagree. NASL has had time to see how the other systems are run and distill that knowledge into something workable.
At first, I thought of NASL as a North American GSL (before any details were announced). Turns out it's just a big online invitational with above-average stakes. What do those 2 have in common besides a big prize pool?
-GSL did NOT limit the number of foreigners that could play (how unethical would that be!)
-GSL is a true tournament, not an invitational
-GSL was impartial and didn't (directly) favor people with teams
-GSL is offline and has spectators in the studio
-GSL doesn't require the players to potentially lose up to $250 if their Internet connection crashed
-GSL is LIVE
-GSL is run like a proper business
-GSL does not frequently have lag boxes popping up
Also, I can't think of a way for them to produce something that makes sense of the prize pool. Certainly, it won't be achieved with a small desk and a greenscreen. It seems to me like this is a big cash cow for *some* players, more so than it's an actual funnel to find the best player. Whoever wins, it won't feel legitimate to me as so many potential winners will be left out entirely.
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On February 25 2011 09:26 RPizzle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 03:53 Castrophy wrote:
I think you guys are overeacting on the league being invite only. I'm sure theese guys wont just pick any old player they want this league to be the best so in turn they will pick the best. I don't believe it says anywhere that if a player doesn't have a team he can't compete but only that they would prefer people to have a team. I don't think we are overreacting whatsoever. The league will not be respected if the selection process is seen as arbitrary or biased. It is that simple. The FAQ on NASL.tv clearly states that you must be on a team. Show nested quote +I think we all need to get behind this for the good of western e-sports. If this fails I can't see anyone else trying somthing this massive in a long long time. We should only get behind it if it appears that it is going to be something that will benefit E-Sports in America. Frankly, everything that has been released so far makes me skeptical that this thing will really create a positive outcome. Therefore I don't want this to be the "One shot" for American E-Sports due to these reservations: Unfair selection system:50 people are chosen via some sort of selection committee. How much does anyone want to bet that the metric for deciding who gets in will not be publicly available? There is a team requirement. This directly contradicts creating a "World Champion" because team membership has no bearing on one's eligibility towards being in the "Top 50". Excluding potential "Top 50" members based on such a rule clearly undercuts the premise. This also includes limiting the number of players who can participate in a given team. If a team is stacked with the very best players in the world, should they really be excluded? Limitation of participation based on race. By allowing only a couple Koreans, well, this couldn't be more obvious. To be honest, I don't even think this is legal. Lack of live broadcasting: They directly damage much of their purpose due to this. In a league which is trying to emphasize the interaction of players, storyline, and the "drama" created by pitting teams against each other, who really thinks that a day delay helps that? How many of us as kids would try to race commercials to go to the bathroom so that we wouldn't miss anything during a football or hockey game? How many of us now have DVRs, and we tape the same games never to watch them? My point is that live broadcasts create immersion and an opportunity for interaction. If you stay up for GSL there are sure to be tons of people typing away on TeamLiquid, /v/, or on GOM's chat/forums. This interaction brings the community together, and allows a large group to comment and share an experience as it happens. It also allows real feedback between the community and the casters, as Tasteosis takes questions to match winners, Day[9] has a Q&A, and TL streamers banter about random topics with their fans. I grant that some people don't care in the slightest about this aspect. However, my contention is that when trying to appease potential customers, one needs to take into consideration that a large number of people do in fact care. Not to mention, MLG, Dreamhack, and GSL are all live. Yes, there are issues that arise from having a live format, but on balance it is minor in comparison. The "gold standard" is already set, and that is live broadcasting. Who here would rather Day[9] just released VODs instead of doing live dailies? The emphasis on enhancing the videos etc. while creating a delay seems to cause a window dressing (production values) to come at the expense of substance (group interactivity). I think this is horrible, on balance. Why not do both like GSL? This would make both sides happy. Even if it has lower production value live, there are benefits that I feel are being ignored. Some may say that it isn't fair to compare NASL to GSL because it is already established, but I disagree. NASL has had time to see how the other systems are run and distill that knowledge into something workable. Questions regarding the interests of league management who are also members of participating teams:The title is overly long, but the issue is going to be very contentious. Personally, I did not like the fact that Artosis participated in Season 1 of GSL because he was working for the company doing the tournament. I already understand that those things couldn't have been more different, but we must look at this as a business. Why do you think that businesses which offer contests and rewards normally exclude their own employees from winning? It is to prevent any perception of impropriety should someone win who is on their payroll. The issue with Artosis both casting and playing seems rather minor compared to the conflicts of interest involved in the NASL. The spokesperson of the league, who also will be primary caster and is involved in the league's management and inception should not be allowed to participate as a player in the same league. End of. This will dip back into the first issue, but are members of Fnatic, EG, Gosu Coaching, or any other group (or their friends) going to have a hand in the selection process for competitors? This is going to be a huge issue, as the lack of a fair and judicious seeding tournament will put a huge magnifying glass on how selections are made. Unless the process is perfectly transparent, then valid objections to the selection process can be, and likely will be raised. This, I feel above all, is the most important issue that needs to be addressed. The legitimacy of the league in the eyes of the spectators, participants, and fans is the foundation of everything that is trying to be accomplished. I agree though with the OP in that I think if this does fail, then it will really screw US E-Sports for a very long time. Most of us skeptics are simply concerned, and I believe that those concerns are justified.
The reason (as I understand it) for it being steamed later is to 1) add to the production value and 2) because this is online. Because it is online people could easily cheat if it was casted lived. This seems very reasonable to me. Would you rather wait a bit or have people cheat? Plus the whole community aspect is still there. Everyone is watching it "live" at the same time as if it was live. I don't really see a difference.
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IMO it is a terrible policy to place a cap on the number of koreans that can play. This communicates to the casual viewers the obvious skill differential that requires such a rule to be in place.
I think the koreans should either be welcomed without restriction or banned outright (based on citizenship requirements)
Scenario 1: Koreans allowed without restriction cause the equivalent of GSL Code A in the NASL with perhaps more natives in the mix
Scenario 2: Koreans completely banned create a north american only tournament
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Ok....I haven't posted here but I think I understand the idea behind NASL.
They are trying to emulate American team sports. This is why there is such a strong emphasis on team only players. I know Incontrol mentioned he's played football in the past so I think he is drawing his ideas for a professional league from that sport. Consider the NASL is a longer season type format with the top players from the season advancing to a playoffs. Also in SotG I heard Russel answer a criticism about the selection process saying something to the extent of "That isn't how the NBA works". These players are being selected by a "drafting" system. Sound familar?
They are trying to emulate physical team sports too much. Starcraft is a 1v1, INDIVIDUAL, game. I really think this selection process will be the death of the NASL. People will lose interest once it's established they have no chance of getting into the league unless they have a team, and the teams will become EXTREMELY hard to get into once players get established into them.
I really really want this to succeed, but make it a level playing field. A frat of teams and players is going to be established and it will be nearly impossible to get into that once it's established
If White-Ra is left off this roster or not invited simply because he has no affiliation with a team that is absolutely laughable and ruins and legitimacy this league was trying to build
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On February 25 2011 11:38 1800STFU wrote:
Ok....I haven't posted here but I think I understand the idea behind NASL.
They are trying to emulate American team sports. This is why there is such a strong emphasis on team only players. I know Incontrol mentioned he's played football in the past so I think he is drawing his ideas for a professional league from that sport. Consider the NASL is a longer season type format with the top players from the season advancing to a playoffs. Also in SotG I heard Russel answer a criticism about the selection process saying something to the extent of "That isn't how the NBA works". These players are being selected by a "drafting" system. Sound familar?
They are trying to emulate physical team sports too much. Starcraft is a 1v1, INDIVIDUAL, game. I really think this selection process will be the death of the NASL. People will lose interest once it's established they have no chance of getting into the league unless they have a team, and the teams will become EXTREMELY hard to get into once players get established into them.
I really really want this to succeed, but make it a level playing field. A frat of teams and players is going to be established and it will be nearly impossible to get into that once it's established
If White-Ra is left off this roster or not invited simply because he has no affiliation with a team that is absolutely laughable and ruins and legitimacy this league was trying to build
I am not 100% on this but I didn't think team membership was a requirement. Or at the very least you could just go "Yeah I am TEAM BOB" and that the team bits that were in there were just to dole out how they were going to cap teams to the # of divisions and then spread out the team mates to prevent one player taking a dive for the other.
The OP says "not sure if the team has to meet some set level of sponsorship/notoriety" so sounds like he isn't sure either, so who knows.
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On February 25 2011 12:02 MattyClutch wrote:
[
I am not 100% on this but I didn't think team membership was a requirement. Or at the very least you could just go "Yeah I am TEAM BOB" and that the team bits that were in there were just to dole out how they were going to cap teams to the # of divisions and then spread out the team mates to prevent one player taking a dive for the other.
The OP says "not sure if the team has to meet some set level of sponsorship/notoriety" so sounds like he isn't sure either, so who knows.
Thanks for that clarification.
Just with things I've heard along with what they said on SotG it seems they are slanting heavily towards a sponsored team requirement.
Russel even said that NBA thing specificly when White-Ra was brought up, and he is the mastermind behind the NASL. That alone makes me very skeptical.
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iNcontroL is race picking going to be allowed in NASL? If so what would you do for people with incompatible matchups? If not what would happen to plays who wanted to completely switch race over the 12 week period/finals period? Will they be forced to the 1 race?
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On February 25 2011 12:02 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 11:38 1800STFU wrote:
Ok....I haven't posted here but I think I understand the idea behind NASL.
They are trying to emulate American team sports. This is why there is such a strong emphasis on team only players. I know Incontrol mentioned he's played football in the past so I think he is drawing his ideas for a professional league from that sport. Consider the NASL is a longer season type format with the top players from the season advancing to a playoffs. Also in SotG I heard Russel answer a criticism about the selection process saying something to the extent of "That isn't how the NBA works". These players are being selected by a "drafting" system. Sound familar?
They are trying to emulate physical team sports too much. Starcraft is a 1v1, INDIVIDUAL, game. I really think this selection process will be the death of the NASL. People will lose interest once it's established they have no chance of getting into the league unless they have a team, and the teams will become EXTREMELY hard to get into once players get established into them.
I really really want this to succeed, but make it a level playing field. A frat of teams and players is going to be established and it will be nearly impossible to get into that once it's established
If White-Ra is left off this roster or not invited simply because he has no affiliation with a team that is absolutely laughable and ruins and legitimacy this league was trying to build
I am not 100% on this but I didn't think team membership was a requirement. Or at the very least you could just go "Yeah I am TEAM BOB" and that the team bits that were in there were just to dole out how they were going to cap teams to the # of divisions and then spread out the team mates to prevent one player taking a dive for the other. The OP says "not sure if the team has to meet some set level of sponsorship/notoriety" so sounds like he isn't sure either, so who knows.
From NASL FAQ "How do I apply to be in the NASL?": You must be on a team, must be available to travel to the main event, must be able to play on the NA server.
This is followed up by a questionnaire with questions such as: "Who do you consider your rival?" and "What makes you stand out from other players?"
From SotG, it seems that they want people who are on "Real" teams. However, Liquid Tyler seemed reticent to approve the system that was being discussed, as he lampooned it by saying that Team Liquid can just form Team Gaseous to get around the arbitrary 5-man team cap.
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On February 25 2011 10:35 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 09:26 RPizzle wrote:On February 25 2011 03:53 Castrophy wrote:
I think you guys are overeacting on the league being invite only. I'm sure theese guys wont just pick any old player they want this league to be the best so in turn they will pick the best. I don't believe it says anywhere that if a player doesn't have a team he can't compete but only that they would prefer people to have a team. I don't think we are overreacting whatsoever. The league will not be respected if the selection process is seen as arbitrary or biased. It is that simple. The FAQ on NASL.tv clearly states that you must be on a team. I think we all need to get behind this for the good of western e-sports. If this fails I can't see anyone else trying somthing this massive in a long long time. We should only get behind it if it appears that it is going to be something that will benefit E-Sports in America. Frankly, everything that has been released so far makes me skeptical that this thing will really create a positive outcome. Therefore I don't want this to be the "One shot" for American E-Sports due to these reservations: Unfair selection system:50 people are chosen via some sort of selection committee. How much does anyone want to bet that the metric for deciding who gets in will not be publicly available? There is a team requirement. This directly contradicts creating a "World Champion" because team membership has no bearing on one's eligibility towards being in the "Top 50". Excluding potential "Top 50" members based on such a rule clearly undercuts the premise. This also includes limiting the number of players who can participate in a given team. If a team is stacked with the very best players in the world, should they really be excluded? Limitation of participation based on race. By allowing only a couple Koreans, well, this couldn't be more obvious. To be honest, I don't even think this is legal. Lack of live broadcasting: They directly damage much of their purpose due to this. In a league which is trying to emphasize the interaction of players, storyline, and the "drama" created by pitting teams against each other, who really thinks that a day delay helps that? How many of us as kids would try to race commercials to go to the bathroom so that we wouldn't miss anything during a football or hockey game? How many of us now have DVRs, and we tape the same games never to watch them? My point is that live broadcasts create immersion and an opportunity for interaction. If you stay up for GSL there are sure to be tons of people typing away on TeamLiquid, /v/, or on GOM's chat/forums. This interaction brings the community together, and allows a large group to comment and share an experience as it happens. It also allows real feedback between the community and the casters, as Tasteosis takes questions to match winners, Day[9] has a Q&A, and TL streamers banter about random topics with their fans. I grant that some people don't care in the slightest about this aspect. However, my contention is that when trying to appease potential customers, one needs to take into consideration that a large number of people do in fact care. Not to mention, MLG, Dreamhack, and GSL are all live. Yes, there are issues that arise from having a live format, but on balance it is minor in comparison. The "gold standard" is already set, and that is live broadcasting. Who here would rather Day[9] just released VODs instead of doing live dailies? The emphasis on enhancing the videos etc. while creating a delay seems to cause a window dressing (production values) to come at the expense of substance (group interactivity). I think this is horrible, on balance. Why not do both like GSL? This would make both sides happy. Even if it has lower production value live, there are benefits that I feel are being ignored. Some may say that it isn't fair to compare NASL to GSL because it is already established, but I disagree. NASL has had time to see how the other systems are run and distill that knowledge into something workable. Questions regarding the interests of league management who are also members of participating teams:The title is overly long, but the issue is going to be very contentious. Personally, I did not like the fact that Artosis participated in Season 1 of GSL because he was working for the company doing the tournament. I already understand that those things couldn't have been more different, but we must look at this as a business. Why do you think that businesses which offer contests and rewards normally exclude their own employees from winning? It is to prevent any perception of impropriety should someone win who is on their payroll. The issue with Artosis both casting and playing seems rather minor compared to the conflicts of interest involved in the NASL. The spokesperson of the league, who also will be primary caster and is involved in the league's management and inception should not be allowed to participate as a player in the same league. End of. This will dip back into the first issue, but are members of Fnatic, EG, Gosu Coaching, or any other group (or their friends) going to have a hand in the selection process for competitors? This is going to be a huge issue, as the lack of a fair and judicious seeding tournament will put a huge magnifying glass on how selections are made. Unless the process is perfectly transparent, then valid objections to the selection process can be, and likely will be raised. This, I feel above all, is the most important issue that needs to be addressed. The legitimacy of the league in the eyes of the spectators, participants, and fans is the foundation of everything that is trying to be accomplished. I agree though with the OP in that I think if this does fail, then it will really screw US E-Sports for a very long time. Most of us skeptics are simply concerned, and I believe that those concerns are justified. The reason (as I understand it) for it being steamed later is to 1) add to the production value and 2) because this is online. Because it is online people could easily cheat if it was casted lived. This seems very reasonable to me. Would you rather wait a bit or have people cheat? Plus the whole community aspect is still there. Everyone is watching it "live" at the same time as if it was live. I don't really see a difference.
The reason (as I understand it) for it being steamed later is to 1) add to the production value and 2) because this is online.
I do not disagree with you, as I had suggested in my prior post that a happy medium could be having an unfinished live broadcast to record the audio/video, then release the VODs the next day post-production.
Because it is online people could easily cheat if it was casted lived. This seems very reasonable to me. Would you rather wait a bit or have people cheat?
I must agree that with the chosen online format, your point is valid. Though, I still think it is less than optimal. Ghosting is a significant issue, and I am not aware of a particularly good way to avoid it in live online matches.
However, you have created a false dichotomy in your question. I would rather NASL have gone down the path of a truly live event such as MLG and the GSL, as an online league is always going to create issues that wouldn't happen at a LAN event. The online format is a blunder in my opinion, which can be exacerbated by having teams. While tape delay does solve ghosting, at a high cost in my opinion, there are more issues that are created.
What stops a team from using a ringer? If someone has the best TvT on a given team, wouldn't it be prudent for the members to have him log into their account and give it a go, since it could make them much more money if they split? It would behoove a team to try to get everyone into the money rounds. Unlike online leagues such as ESEA or CEVO which use their own servers, everything will be on Blizzard's. I can't be certain, but I doubt Blizzard will share the personal IP addresses of the players with NASL staff.
It goes without saying that backseat playing will be an issue as well. Having someone or even a team watching over a player's shoulder and providing advice is unavoidable in an online format. There is no way to control the playing environment, therefore there will always be that cloud hanging over it. It is somewhat ironic that on a SotG, I recall talk about how someone could hear a commentator while playing at a live event, and that it could ruin the legitimacy of a whole tournament. Yet, the current format is by far the most liable to be abused.
Plus the whole community aspect is still there. Everyone is watching it "live" at the same time as if it was live. I don't really see a difference.
I understand the point made, but I disagree. I think that there is a qualitative difference between watching something live and something pre-recorded. I had used examples above in which there were interactions that occur on various forums based on the live presentation of GSL. We won't have excited posts as people go crazy over baneling bombs, a failed push, or a mothership rush half way through a game.
Posts such as "Did you guys just see that <insert high level play>?" will no longer exist. Instead, people will watch the game and comment. I think this point may be difficult to get across, as there is an intangible sense of community that is created through this, which is not the same when watching replays, and the sentiment is not shared by everyone.
Though, more concrete examples were provided in dealing with casters, such as how you could ask players questions in GSL when they win. Artosis has said nearly every iteration of the word Grack because of it. Like I said with people who comment on peoples' TL streams, it allows for a real time dialogue to occur between the casters and the spectators.
While I do appear to be very critical of the NASL, it is out of a deep appreciation for E-Sports. I would much rather it succeed. However, I am very hesitant to support it because despite having so much money thrown at it, it is set up in a manner that appears inferior to the extant leagues, and has the potential to dive bomb the whole American E-Sports scene if it fails.
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I don't even watch any sports live or otherwise, but still think they should consider it being a live production, or delayed by an hour at most. When someone wins the $100k, what are they supposed to do? Stay away from TL and twitter for a day, hiding their excitement and not telling anybody? results will inevitably get leaked out, and 24 hours later just loses the immersive feeling that previous posts have described better than I can.
I'm also not liking the focus on teams. SC2 is not a team sport and GSL's system of qualifiers is more appropriate I think.
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On February 25 2011 14:47 dar0za wrote:
I don't even watch any sports live or otherwise, but still think they should consider it being a live production, or delayed by an hour at most. When someone wins the $100k, what are they supposed to do? Stay away from TL and twitter for a day, hiding their excitement and not telling anybody? results will inevitably get leaked out, and 24 hours later just loses the immersive feeling that previous posts have described better than I can.
I'm also not liking the focus on teams. SC2 is not a team sport and GSL's system of qualifiers is more appropriate I think.
The last 16 will be an offline Lan Event that will be broadcast Live I believe.
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The Haterade being dumped on the NASL is really blowing my mind.
Just a few points:
1. There's no such thing as a perfect selection process. Opens might be the best, but NASL has decided they want to push a team format, which is their decision to make. If it really bombs it wouldn't be that incredibly hard to revert to an open system.
2. They can't cast the damn thing live. The integrity of the league's games has to take precedent over everything. There CAN'T be a CHANCE that someone is looking at the stream. In a game like SC2 with imperfect information, a chance of stream cheating potentially turns a great scout pattern and game sense into OMFG SCREEN LOOKING BANBANBAN. I remember in the HDH idrA ran this unbelievable scout pattern vs Orb and found a proxy stargate. If someone didn't know for a fact that Idra was playing legit, they could have been sure it was cheating.
3. While INcontrol is obviously a big part of NASL's production regarding streaming and casting, there's no reason to believe that he will be a decision maker as far as who is being selected to play in the league, or will be consulted on matters where a conflict of interest exists. Russell and Duncan are the head guys, and they have no incentive to turn NASL into a pro-EG or pro-Fnatic or pro-Liquid production. And even besides that, Incontrol doesn't seem like the kind of person who would do something dishonest anyhow.
4. The 5 player limit strikes me as reasonable. How many teams REALLY have more than 5 Star players? Liquid's top players are Jinro, TLO, Ret, HuK, Tyler, Haypro in descending order (roughly, I don't care if you think HuK > Ret or whatever else). Is NASL going to be ruined because Haypro isn't in it? EG has IdrA, Machine, Incontrol, Demuslim, Axslav, Strifecro. Is NASL ruined because Strifecro or Axslav isn't in it? Really?
5. I don't want to dump too hard on it because it isn't confirmed yet, but I'm a little worried about stonewalling the Koreans. I don't want the NASL to be the GSL in NA either, but I REALLY want at least IM and OGS there.
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On February 25 2011 16:26 Sephimos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The Haterade being dumped on the NASL is really blowing my mind.
Just a few points:
1. There's no such thing as a perfect selection process. Opens might be the best, but NASL has decided they want to push a team format, which is their decision to make. If it really bombs it wouldn't be that incredibly hard to revert to an open system.
2. They can't cast the damn thing live. The integrity of the league's games has to take precedent over everything. There CAN'T be a CHANCE that someone is looking at the stream. In a game like SC2 with imperfect information, a chance of stream cheating potentially turns a great scout pattern and game sense into OMFG SCREEN LOOKING BANBANBAN. I remember in the HDH idrA ran this unbelievable scout pattern vs Orb and found a proxy stargate. If someone didn't know for a fact that Idra was playing legit, they could have been sure it was cheating.
3. While INcontrol is obviously a big part of NASL's production regarding streaming and casting, there's no reason to believe that he will be a decision maker as far as who is being selected to play in the league, or will be consulted on matters where a conflict of interest exists. Russell and Duncan are the head guys, and they have no incentive to turn NASL into a pro-EG or pro-Fnatic or pro-Liquid production. And even besides that, Incontrol doesn't seem like the kind of person who would do something dishonest anyhow.
4. The 5 player limit strikes me as reasonable. How many teams REALLY have more than 5 Star players? Liquid's top players are Jinro, TLO, Ret, HuK, Tyler, Haypro in descending order (roughly, I don't care if you think HuK > Ret or whatever else). Is NASL going to be ruined because Haypro isn't in it? EG has IdrA, Machine, Incontrol, Demuslim, Axslav, Strifecro. Is NASL ruined because Strifecro or Axslav isn't in it? Really?
5. I don't want to dump too hard on it because it isn't confirmed yet, but I'm a little worried about stonewalling the Koreans. I don't want the NASL to be the GSL in NA either, but I REALLY want at least IM and OGS there.
Agreed pretty much on all points, and to expand on 4. I understand Tylers concerns about one of their players being left out but ofc NASL has every right to make their own decisions regarding this and with good points as stated on SOTG.
If you're in a team with more than 5 players you might need to make a hard decision, maybe host an in house tournament to decide who goes and who has to stay.
I for one think NASL looks to be simply amazing already with good decisions being made across the board, gl incontrol and the rest of the staff working on this!
+ Show Spoiler +morrow vs idra, please make that happen 
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On February 25 2011 16:26 Sephimos wrote:
The Haterade being dumped on the NASL is really blowing my mind.
Just a few points:
1. There's no such thing as a perfect selection process. Opens might be the best, but NASL has decided they want to push a team format, which is their decision to make. If it really bombs it wouldn't be that incredibly hard to revert to an open system.
2. They can't cast the damn thing live. The integrity of the league's games has to take precedent over everything. There CAN'T be a CHANCE that someone is looking at the stream. In a game like SC2 with imperfect information, a chance of stream cheating potentially turns a great scout pattern and game sense into OMFG SCREEN LOOKING BANBANBAN. I remember in the HDH idrA ran this unbelievable scout pattern vs Orb and found a proxy stargate. If someone didn't know for a fact that Idra was playing legit, they could have been sure it was cheating.
3. While INcontrol is obviously a big part of NASL's production regarding streaming and casting, there's no reason to believe that he will be a decision maker as far as who is being selected to play in the league, or will be consulted on matters where a conflict of interest exists. Russell and Duncan are the head guys, and they have no incentive to turn NASL into a pro-EG or pro-Fnatic or pro-Liquid production. And even besides that, Incontrol doesn't seem like the kind of person who would do something dishonest anyhow.
4. The 5 player limit strikes me as reasonable. How many teams REALLY have more than 5 Star players? Liquid's top players are Jinro, TLO, Ret, HuK, Tyler, Haypro in descending order (roughly, I don't care if you think HuK > Ret or whatever else). Is NASL going to be ruined because Haypro isn't in it? EG has IdrA, Machine, Incontrol, Demuslim, Axslav, Strifecro. Is NASL ruined because Strifecro or Axslav isn't in it? Really?
5. I don't want to dump too hard on it because it isn't confirmed yet, but I'm a little worried about stonewalling the Koreans. I don't want the NASL to be the GSL in NA either, but I REALLY want at least IM and OGS there.
They could cast it live with a delay in the stream of 10 to 20 minutes its not uncommon for tournaments to do this. even make it 30-40 minutes to ensure games will be over, 30-40 minutes isnt a big deal any longer feels like your just watching a replay on youtube.
For the 5 player limit its not really about the current teams its about team growth if the NASL becomes a major league in NA it will completly destroy the way teams work and will divide teams and not allow them to expand i would like to see teams expand and flourish not be divided and fight for sponsors.
Yea i really hope your right that incontrol or xeris will not be part of the process for picking members, but at the same time duncan and russel arent really to versed in all the players in esports so its hard to not see incontrol being involved in this process (russel didnt even know who whitera was) considering that alot of the staff seem to be EG or Fnatic members i am pretty sure a conflict of intrest will be present. Also the fact that incontrol is automatically part of the league just seems a bit unfair, and its possible that gretorp maybe as well (although nothing was said in that regard) If he wants to be a caster then he should cast if he wants to be a player he should give up the position of casting to focus on being a competitor in the NASL, with how busy he is going to be being a figurehead for the NASL i cant see him perfoming very well anyways.
I really hope it wont be this way but as ive said in previous posts if it feels like their is any bias involved in the picking of players this league will not be taken seriously, Honestly i dont think incontrol is a top 50 player(hes really good and im a fan but there are just far better players out there) weather that be in north america europe or korea, or all of them as the case may be in this tournament so that makes me skeptical already. I really hope the NASL succeeds wich is the reason im being so critical, but i am also extremely happy with the way the GSL is being run right now so it wouldnt be a huge deal if the NASL does poorly. The GSL's qualification format makes it a far better judge of who the best players are anyways. Even the way the TSL are doing their tournament is far more commendable , invite the big names and make a qualification process over many open tournaments it seems fair ( everyone wants to see the big names and alot of those korean players probably wouldnt even try to qualify) Where as having Incontrol as an auto invite to the NASL doesnt seem fair if he was so great why didnt get get an invite to the TSL?
Best of luck to the people running the NASL i just really hope you guys do this right!
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Live cAsting should not be done !! Ghosting cheating will occur.
PLEASE RELEASE THE REPLAYS !! and VIODS MAKE THEM PUBLIC
i dont likeit how gomt tv doenst release the voids.
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Just to get it out there, I will not be playing in the league. Want to take any speculation out of that.
Thank you!
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On February 26 2011 04:35 Gretorp wrote:
Just to get it out there, I will not be playing in the league. Want to take any speculation out of that.
Thank you!
Glad to hear that, not because you are a bad player, just because you even said yourself that you havent been playing much recently (job etc.) I was defenetly a fan of yours at MLG but then you sort of fell off the radar didnt hear to much of you. Gl in the future though. I was critical of both yours and Incontrols casting abilities at the showmatch so i hope you guys will practice up and impress us for the NASL!
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EPT
