|
On October 08 2010 07:01 SKtheAnathema wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:18 checo wrote:
Make zerg need an Ovie before pool...
OMG... what a bullshit...
Hope blizzard give sthis a good test before it comes out, ZvT seems balance these days hope this doesn't fuck it up yes, please make zerg require an overlord to make a pool. i keep getting 6-pooled by zergs that happen to not spawn with an overlord
Lol if zerg comes at you with zerglings from a 6 pool, and they don't build an overlord, you are going to get a maximum of 10 zerglings?And that means Zerg has 5 drones at the base. Your SCVs can destroy 10 zerglings very easy. Almost every 6 pool has an overlord created before the lings.
|
On October 08 2010 07:10 Thor-axe the Impaler wrote:
I'm giving Blizzard the benefit of the doubt for now. They've dealt with just as drastic changes before, like Roach supply change. I hated it when it happened but it was for the better, and yes, as smart as we think we are I'm going to see this through just like Blizzard will.
Course I'm a Zerg player so this is awesome for me. It looks rough for Terran players, but I think it's their turn anyway.
yes, cuz imbalancing the game from one race to another is OBVIOUSLY the route towards balance? what?
|
On October 08 2010 06:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
how to play zerg versus terran:
6 pool to scare terran into throwing down early supply/rax/marine pump. both players econs are hurt but zerg has queen out earlier to power drones. tech switch to roach. annihilate terran who has nothing but marines. gg
ah right, while zerg is 6pooling ( = 5 worker after pool), terra kann go 9depot/10rax (=10 worker).
queen after 6pool ? are u kidding me.. did you forget your mules worth 270minerals each ?
and nevertheless terra is always fine with 10depot/12rax to counter an enemy sixpool.
all in all nice changes. i think roach push vs toss will be very very scary. zerg can deal with hellion openings much easier.
i wonder how this will affect zvz play. roaches are already quite popular again and will get even more powerful. roach+infestor may be the better midgamecombo than hydra+infestor now. (as long as there are no mutas on the battlefield)
|
On October 08 2010 07:10 snakeyes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 07:01 SKtheAnathema wrote:On October 08 2010 06:18 checo wrote:
Make zerg need an Ovie before pool...
OMG... what a bullshit...
Hope blizzard give sthis a good test before it comes out, ZvT seems balance these days hope this doesn't fuck it up yes, please make zerg require an overlord to make a pool. i keep getting 6-pooled by zergs that happen to not spawn with an overlord Lol if zerg comes at you with zerglings from a 6 pool and they don't build an overloard, you are going to get a maximum of 10 zerglings?And that means Zerg has 5 drones at the base. Your SCVs can destroy 10 zerglings very easy. Almost every 6 pool has an overlord created before the lings.
in what world do my "scvs kill 10 zerglings easily"? any minor micro from the zerg player will be able to pick off enough scvs to balance the zerg's hurt econ by going early pool. not to mention, 45 hp scvs are not 'zomgzerglingstoppers' anymore.
|
OK, SC2 site is down for maintence, so can't see if Blizzard has verfied these changes. But, by the looks of it, they seem pretty fake.
Since, depot before raxx doesn't Really make Sense - why should terran be the Only one not able to do Really early agression?
Reapers upgrade on factory makes no Sense - because that makes them totally useless more or less.
Roach buff seems weird, because the ReasoN behind it is the mid-game - but there is no mention about the early game, where this change will have a MASSIVE effect on TvZ.
Just my 2 cents.
|
Legitimate question: Why doesn't SC2 have a test realm?
|
On October 08 2010 06:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
1 spawning pool is up, 6 zerglings, can kill many marines, and 1 zealot but not 2 zealots.
1 barracks is up, 1 marine can kill... nothing. behind a wall in, it can kill melee units but only as long as the wall in holds.
how to play zerg versus terran:
6 pool to scare terran into throwing down early supply/rax/marine pump. both players econs are hurt but zerg has queen out earlier to power drones. tech switch to roach. annihilate terran who has nothing but marines. gg
--------------------------------------------
when did i even say anything about pushing out with 1-3 marines against zerg? and yes it does happen when we rush with an scv to build a bunker, but that wasn't even the point.
i'm just not even going to respond to this thread anymore.
Bolded and underlined above. Why would 6 zerglings be up against marines? Don't ragequit the thread, just maybe clarify what you meant by "6 Zerglings can kill many marines.... 1 marine can kill nothing."
When is 6 lings vs 1 marine a balance issue?
|
Terran player here. I love the depot before Rax requirement. Proxy Rax cheese ruins T v T because it makes it just a build order poker. I knew about this change a while ago and fully approve of it.
|
Why everybody is crazy about 6 pool. Do you think zergs do not 6 pool because of early barrack threat? NO, they don't 6 pool because of wall-in. 6 pool actually counters early barrack.
That said I repeat again: 6 pool is allin for zerg, if it doesn't succeed its over. Early rax was cheese and viable build at the same time. Its fair that its nerfed.
Gosh, terrans, remember how u used to tell "learn to play, get better". And you are already crying even though patch is not up yet.
|
On October 08 2010 07:03 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 07:00 lololol wrote:On October 08 2010 06:58 swordsaint wrote:On October 08 2010 06:49 lololol wrote:On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot:  not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair. How are 6 zerglings by the time you have 1 marine out "exactly equal"? The races are different, their production capabilities are not equal, their first combat units are not equal against each other, e.t.c. Zerg had it's pool cost increased from 150 to 200 in BW to balance them out, and that change certainly didn't even them out with the cost of barracks. Yes because games are won by the number of units you produce at your own base without taking into consideration travel distances, wall-offs and static defenses. "I just built 6 lings with no speed vs your 1 marine. I've already won. Quit now". If you're not going to address what I posted, then don't quote me. Zerg can't proxy. Oh and, you can still bunker rush a hatch-first Zerg with a 11rax and bunker.
This. 6 lings cost 150 minerals, 1 marine costs 50, and the zerg player has to stop droning to do this while you don't. Pool takes 5 seconds longer than rax, so if you both build nothing but your depot+rax/pool, zerg gets 6 zerglings around 3 seconds before you get 1 marine. However, the zerg can't proxy, so by the time his lings reach the point in your base where you can proxy in his, you have 2-3 marines and a friggin bunker. Drones won't break a bunker, while his lings will get eaten by your scvs. This is unfair to terran how?
God, terran players are so spoiled. Playing on even footing? oh no, now I can't win!
|
On October 08 2010 07:05 DreXxiN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 07:03 kojinshugi wrote:On October 08 2010 06:58 Kazeyonoma wrote:
9 pylon probe can now walk over to terran base, see his supply depot building with no rax, harass the scv building that supply, and if he is successful at stopping the supply from coming, the barracks will be so late, 1 zealot will be at the terran door before the rax is even finished, let alone a marine is out. Oh, what's what? I should pull another scv out to stop the harassing probe? he'll just run, regenerate shield, while now i'm down TWO harvesters worth of economy, and everytime i trade out an scv to continue building, i lose mining time. as well as delayed OC timing now. What the fuck. I've NEVER opened against toss with anything but 10 depot 12 rax and this is not a problem at ALL. Yeah, you might have to switch out the SCVs that are building but you'd have to be alt tabbed to porn to actually let one die. And once your rine is out the probe will almost certainly die if he's still around. Whereas toss is utterly incapable of killing your SCV until he gets stalkers. Hell, I'm in gold league and I don't have these massive problems. TvP is my best matchup. To be fair I don't think anyone in gold league is capable of really intelligent probe harass.
To be fair you're talking out of your ass. What is a Diamond player going to do that's so intelligent compared to the gold and plat I play against? Run away and let the shields recharge? Yeah, they do that already. My rax will complete, my marine will be out in 30 seconds, and I won't let an SCV die to a single probe no matter how well you micro it.
We're not mentally handicapped in the lower leagues, we just don't have the RTS experience you do. Which means we lose to late game, not early cheese or small scale micro.
|
On October 08 2010 07:13 Rybka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
1 spawning pool is up, 6 zerglings, can kill many marines, and 1 zealot but not 2 zealots.
1 barracks is up, 1 marine can kill... nothing. behind a wall in, it can kill melee units but only as long as the wall in holds.
how to play zerg versus terran:
6 pool to scare terran into throwing down early supply/rax/marine pump. both players econs are hurt but zerg has queen out earlier to power drones. tech switch to roach. annihilate terran who has nothing but marines. gg
--------------------------------------------
when did i even say anything about pushing out with 1-3 marines against zerg? and yes it does happen when we rush with an scv to build a bunker, but that wasn't even the point.
i'm just not even going to respond to this thread anymore. Bolded and underlined above. Why would 6 zerglings be up against marines? Don't ragequit the thread, just maybe clarify what you meant by "6 Zerglings can kill many marines.... 1 marine can kill nothing." When is 6 lings vs 1 marine a balance issue?
Oh i just figured since people were throwing out random statistics like 1 pylon + 1 gateway = 250 minerals, and 1 drone + spawning pool = 250 minerals, therefore 1 supply depot + 1 barracks is balanced, i might as well throw out my own random statistic about what each race can do the moment their tier 1 building is done what can happen. Hey if people can throw out crazy #s to prove why things are balanced, why can't I?
edit: spelling
|
I play Zerg. Infestor buff is nice, same with building health. Roach range was a little unnecessary, would've rather had Roach speed for free. Terran changes shouldn't go through, Reapers got nerfed enough already. ZvP will be one-sided with Roach/Infestor buffs imo.
|
That barracks change is so stupid...it's not like those strats are imbalanced and they should be a part of the game. It's like saying 'hey zerg, you have to build an ovie before pool because your rush is too strong' -.-. I can't believe there still isn't a marauder/mule/medivac nerf. This patch is gonna be hit PvZ pretty hard, particularly the roach buff.
|
On October 08 2010 01:38 TBO wrote:
Supply depot needed before barracks is really not a good idea. there is lots of non all-in pressure builds which would be all obsolete with that change. Its like saying you need to build an overlord before pool to prevent 6 pool...
I mean even if those builds are not played usually the whole existence of that possibility keeps the zerg honest, if you remove it he can go totally wild with his opening.
If the roach range increase is from 3 to 3.5, its probably okay, if it is from 3 to 4 it might be too much.
Fungal growth on Blink is a most welcome change.
Instead of demanding factory for reaper speed it should just cost 100/100 again and have a longer build time.
I completely have to agree.
Removing even the possibility of a 10 rax allows the other races to do pretty much anything early game it also makes it quite a bit more difficult to defend against rushes or respond to expected super early agression as terran.
It cuts down on early game variations in a way that is certainly not necessary (especially since t1 reaper speed just got removed as well) and any cuts on variation that are not imperative for game balance are bad.
|
On October 08 2010 07:14 link0 wrote:
Terran player here. I love the depot before Rax requirement. Proxy Rax cheese ruins T v T because it makes it just a build order poker. I knew about this change a while ago and fully approve of it.
woot. hope people realize you're actually a top player before they try to you tell you're a scrub for not scouting.
|
On October 08 2010 07:12 TheFisherman wrote:
OK, SC2 site is down for maintence, so can't see if Blizzard has verfied these changes. But, by the looks of it, they seem pretty fake.
Since, depot before raxx doesn't Really make Sense - why should terran be the Only one not able to do Really early agression?
Reapers upgrade on factory makes no Sense - because that makes them totally useless more or less.
Roach buff seems weird, because the ReasoN behind it is the mid-game - but there is no mention about the early game, where this change will have a MASSIVE effect on TvZ.
Just my 2 cents.
It's not fake.
|
Terran player here. I love the depot before Rax requirement. Proxy Rax cheese ruins T v T because it makes it just a build order poker. I knew about this change a while ago and fully approve of it.
If you scout after SD and make barracks at 12, you're not really gonna have any prob against proxy raxx.
|
On October 08 2010 07:03 kojinshugi wrote:
What the fuck. I've NEVER opened against toss with anything but 10 depot 12 rax and this is not a problem at ALL. Yeah, you might have to switch out the SCVs that are building but you'd have to be alt tabbed to porn to actually let one die. And once your rine is out the probe will almost certainly die if he's still around.
Whereas toss is utterly incapable of killing your SCV until he gets stalkers.
Hell, I'm in gold league and I don't have these massive problems. TvP is my best matchup.
Keep playing and wait till you run into good toss players who can stop early game aggression. Late game toss is a real bitch to deal with. When playing toss I always go colo+phoenix+gateway. It is sooo good against terran that I have stopped going templars till I am on 3+bases. Not that HTs are bad, psi storm is really good against bio too, but once you get to that critical mass where colo 2-3 shots bio and phoenix+stalker demolish vikings. Not to mention that with zealot and ff in the mix bio dies faster than u can say wtf just happenned :D.
|
On October 08 2010 07:16 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 07:13 Rybka wrote:On October 08 2010 06:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
1 spawning pool is up, 6 zerglings, can kill many marines, and 1 zealot but not 2 zealots.
1 barracks is up, 1 marine can kill... nothing. behind a wall in, it can kill melee units but only as long as the wall in holds.
how to play zerg versus terran:
6 pool to scare terran into throwing down early supply/rax/marine pump. both players econs are hurt but zerg has queen out earlier to power drones. tech switch to roach. annihilate terran who has nothing but marines. gg
--------------------------------------------
when did i even say anything about pushing out with 1-3 marines against zerg? and yes it does happen when we rush with an scv to build a bunker, but that wasn't even the point.
i'm just not even going to respond to this thread anymore. Bolded and underlined above. Why would 6 zerglings be up against marines? Don't ragequit the thread, just maybe clarify what you meant by "6 Zerglings can kill many marines.... 1 marine can kill nothing." When is 6 lings vs 1 marine a balance issue? Oh i just figured since people were throwing out random statistics like 1 pylon + 1 gateway = 250 minerals, and 1 drone + spawning pool = 250 minerals, therefore 1 supply depot + 1 barracks is balanced, i might as well throw out my own random statistic about what each race can do the moment their tier 1 building is done what can happen. Hey if people can throw out crazy #s to prove why things are balanced, why can't I? edit: spelling
LOL Ah ok well cool, looks like we both misunderstood each other 
gg :D
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
