|
On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot:  not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair.
Bam!
1 pylon + 1 gateway = ability to produce 2 supply of zealots.
1 pool = ability to produce 3 supply of zerglings.
1 depot + 1 barracks = ability to produce 1 supply of marines.
Kay?
|
On October 08 2010 06:49 cogwheel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot: not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair. What I meant: 7rax (or earlier) reaper rush (which some would consider cheese) is basically being nullified. Why not also throw in a way to stop 6-pooling and some equivalent protoss cheese? I'm not saying that this was Terran's ONLY cheese strat, OR that the others need to be nerfed ASAP, just that if Blizzard starts limiting cheese, it should be in an even fashion
go 6-supply 7-barracks. Ta-da, 7rax reaper.
On October 08 2010 06:49 LionsFist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot: not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair. Bam! 1 pylon + 1 gateway = ability to produce 2 supply of zealots. 1 pool = ability to produce 3 supply of zerglings. 1 depot + 1 barracks = ability to produce 1 supply of marines. Kay?
3 supply of Zerglings only once after which it's 1 supply. Zealot build time also is nearly twice that of a marine's. Oh right, and Marine is the only ranged tier 1 unit.
|
I agree with all the changes except with the depot/barracks. I think reapers are nerfed enough. People realize T doesn't attach with one reaper they use at least 3 and that's a good 15 seconds that I'm glad to have but that is a bit too much
|
On October 08 2010 01:16 Woony wrote:
The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.
This is unfathomably dumb. Please yes, make all openings completely generic, don't make scouting for cheese an actual task, thanks Dustin Browder, you are terrible
|
Zerg definitely needed help and buffing a cheap massable unit that can form a strong core for their army is a good move. Reapers were already fine and would have become even more obsolete with the roach buff. I don't know why Blizz is so keen on balancing 2v2, I mean its complicated enough to do the same for 1v1. People will just move on to the next abusable team game strat. What next? Mass voids in team games is too powerful so lets nerf them too?
The supply before rax is pretty lame. Its just makes early game terran more one dimensional and kills all early pressure into fe builds as well as early cheeses. When I pay Z or P I don't have much incentive to scout terran now, pretty easy to be a little greedy and be safe and scout in the early-mid game (well as toss atleast, zerg still cannot scout terran in early mid XD). TvT is also going to be incredibly annoying now.
Pretty lame to take away from the 1v1 side to balance team games which is most likely not going to work anyway coz people will find some other unit combo to abuse.
|
On October 08 2010 06:49 LionsFist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot: not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair. Bam! 1 pylon + 1 gateway = ability to produce 2 supply of zealots. 1 pool = ability to produce 3 supply of zerglings. 1 depot + 1 barracks = ability to produce 1 supply of marines. Kay?
THIS is probably a better way of saying what I meant
|
On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot: not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair.
but lets look at what we can generate out of those 3 scenarios.
1 gateway is up, and you get 1 zealot, capable of killing 3 zerglings, or 2 zergings if there's 4 that surround. same zealot can kill endless marines if they are not grouped up, probably 4 marines kiting can kill a zealot.
1 spawning pool is up, 6 zerglings, can kill many marines, and 1 zealot but not 2 zealots.
1 barracks is up, 1 marine can kill... nothing. behind a wall in, it can kill melee units but only as long as the wall in holds.
how to play zerg versus terran:
6 pool to scare terran into throwing down early supply/rax/marine pump. both players econs are hurt but zerg has queen out earlier to power drones. tech switch to roach. annihilate terran who has nothing but marines. gg
|
On October 08 2010 06:49 LionsFist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot: not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair. Bam! 1 pylon + 1 gateway = ability to produce 2 supply of zealots. 1 pool = ability to produce 3 supply of zerglings. 1 depot + 1 barracks = ability to produce 1 supply of marines. Kay?
No, they have different buildtimes. 1 pool means that you can produce 1 supply every 17 seconds if you give up drone production. 1 rax means that you can produce 1 supply every 25 seconds. 1 gateway means that you can produce 2 supply every 33 seconds, can be chronoboosted for even more. As you can see the zealots and zerglings have equal production while marines lags behind since they are ranged. The only way for zerg to get ahead is to build a queen for another 150 minerals and 2 supply.
|
It should be mentioned that a spawning pool costs 250. A gate and a pylon costs 250. And a depot and rax costs 250. This really isn't as unfair as it sounds.
IMO it should also be mentioned that while an SCV is building, Terran loses one more harvester and doesn't have an orbital command up before the first Barracks, while Protoss not only can harvest with the worker building the pylon/gateway, but already has chrono boost readily available for the Nexus to produce probes even faster.
|
Wow...even as a zerg player i think this is just too much. Especially depot required for rax. Reapers will now be completely useless, it should at least be an option.
|
On October 08 2010 06:54 DreXxiN wrote:Show nested quote +It should be mentioned that a spawning pool costs 250. A gate and a pylon costs 250. And a depot and rax costs 250. This really isn't as unfair as it sounds. IMO it should also be mentioned that while an SCV is building, Terran loses one more harvester and doesn't have an orbital command up before the first Barracks, while Protoss not only can harvest with the worker building the pylon/gateway, but already has chrono boost readily available for the Nexus to produce probes even faster.
Yeah, that's how the race has worked for... 13 years?
|
6 pool to scare terran into throwing down early supply/rax/marine pump. both players econs are hurt but zerg has queen out earlier to power drones. tech switch to roach. annihilate terran who has nothing but marines. gg
Okay, I understand the frustration but this is a blatant exaggeration. 6pool is just not that scary and can be defeated by worker micro for christsakes.
I think you grossly underestimate how much 6pool ruins an economy.
|
Barracks requiring a supply depot is not that odd, Protoss requires a pylon, and Zerg can't build any buildings unless there is supply room for the drone to be made.
|
On October 08 2010 06:55 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:54 DreXxiN wrote:It should be mentioned that a spawning pool costs 250. A gate and a pylon costs 250. And a depot and rax costs 250. This really isn't as unfair as it sounds. IMO it should also be mentioned that while an SCV is building, Terran loses one more harvester and doesn't have an orbital command up before the first Barracks, while Protoss not only can harvest with the worker building the pylon/gateway, but already has chrono boost readily available for the Nexus to produce probes even faster. Yeah, that's how the race has worked for... 13 years?
Try googling "Context".
In BW, not only is the game different and the maps are larger, but you could build rax before depot in BW. Nice try at being a smartass though.
"Well in Sonic 1 you didn't have a multitude of shields to take care of enemies easier like you do in sonic 3." Hurr Derp.
Oh and did I get to mention how 4 pool was astronomically simpler to stop due to 60 HP scvs and the ability to stack workers?.
Yep, way to make another fail comparison to BW which is not only frowned upon but completely retarded since they are TWO SEPERATE GAMES.
|
On October 08 2010 06:49 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot: not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair. How are 6 zerglings by the time you have 1 marine out "exactly equal"? The races are different, their production capabilities are not equal, their first combat units are not equal against each other, e.t.c. Zerg had it's pool cost increased from 150 to 200 in BW to balance them out, and that change certainly didn't even them out with the cost of barracks.
Yes because games are won by the number of units you produce at your own base without taking into consideration travel distances, wall-offs and static defenses.
"I just built 6 lings with no speed vs your 1 marine. I've already won. Quit now".
|
i think u should bring back the cast on icons, so that the zerg dont have to put all there hatches on individually numbers, then they can put all there hatches and queens on one number and their larva inject on them.
this will make more fun to play and easier to macro them on lower levels.
the additional roach range should be an upgrade for tier 2, otherwise it would affect the balance to much in the early game.
i dont really like the depo requirement for rax, cause it also cuts out fast tech bos. this could also open the possibility for a protoss to expand before making a gateway.
|
i predict everyone will predict how the metagame changes, and then everyone will play the way they think the patch wants them to play (never make reapers, make many roaches, terran will give up cheesing, etc) for a long time until someone shows everyone how wrong they were about X unit or Y strategy.
|
9 pylon probe can now walk over to terran base, see his supply depot building with no rax, harass the scv building that supply, and if he is successful at stopping the supply from coming, the barracks will be so late, 1 zealot will be at the terran door before the rax is even finished, let alone a marine is out. Oh, what's what? I should pull another scv out to stop the harassing probe? he'll just run, regenerate shield, while now i'm down TWO harvesters worth of economy, and everytime i trade out an scv to continue building, i lose mining time. as well as delayed OC timing now.
probe harass was hard enough on a large building like barracks where MAYBE the scv might scoot to the far side or in th emiddle where the probe can't hit him easily, harassing the supplydepot scv will be ridiculously easy, and can halt all early terran infantry.
|
On October 08 2010 06:49 LionsFist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot: not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair. Bam! 1 pylon + 1 gateway = ability to produce 2 supply of zealots. 1 pool = ability to produce 3 supply of zerglings. 1 depot + 1 barracks = ability to produce 1 supply of marines. Kay?
3 supply of Zerglings only once after which it's 1 supply. Zealot build time also is nearly twice that of a marine's. Oh right, and Marine is the only ranged tier 1 unit. [/QUOTE]
How does that matter? It is only a benefit to have range if you can not get hit or be forced to move. Lings don't force you to move... cause you can't outrun them.
Zealots force you to move, because you can only run away...
The only way that marines are an effective rush strategy is if you use bunkers. There's your extra 100 minerals, not the supply depot.
Either that or the tech lab units which are another 50/75+buildtime away.
|
On October 08 2010 06:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
6 pool to scare terran into throwing down early supply/rax/marine pump. both players econs are hurt but zerg has queen out earlier to power drones. tech switch to roach. annihilate terran who has nothing but marines. gg
I don't have to pump marines. I make the same one marine I always do (just to scare ovies out) and go about my business.
Two SCVs easily repair the lings damage, every now and then you have to micro them if he splits the lings.
The only economic bump on some maps is a slightly earlier second depot, which will delay my OC. Other than that it's a perfectly normal 111 opening.
I'll make a second rine on Blistering Sands to watch the back door rocks. Maybe, if I feel like it.
6 pool is absolutely toothless against terran.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
