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On October 08 2010 06:17 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:13 vnlegend wrote:
Blizzard is just hilarious.
They build a weird new unit and call it the Reaper. But wait, the reaper rush is too strong. So Blizzard's plan is to nerf the reaper into oblivion so now nobody will use it. This way their mistake just becomes an unpopular strategy.
Reapers are useless as it is mid-late game. As if the 5 sec build time wasn't enough for the other races to stop it, they might as well just remove the unit from the game. Would it be a bad idea to have the Reaper require a building that cost about 100/100? The building would have Barracks as a prerequisite and would enable Reapers. Reapers would have Nitro packs by default. That way we could have slower initial Reapers without screwing them completely over. The build time should be something like maybe 50 sec.
They just need an overhaul so they can be possibly used mid/late game. I figure something like 50/25 cost, making a reasonable build time and giving them stim packs instead of nitro would work, obviously would need to do some things to delay the first reaper like add a secondary building requirement. That way they arnt overly expensive so they can fit in the army, they'll act like marines on crack that cant shoot air when you arnt harassing with them.
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As a terran player, my $0.02:
- Roach range increase: no biggie. I feel like this is just a response to dominating Reapers, but it's fairly time-consuming to micro reapers to kill roaches currently. If you're good enough to do that, then you should be able to.
- FG on stalkers: meh, ok
- Barracks require a depot:  not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening.
- Reaper speed upgrade moved to factory: not a huge loss, but, combined with the depot nerf, reapers are now fairly useless.
- zerg building HP increase: Again, I feel like this is another response to Reapers, but since they're getting nerfed into oblivion, so I think this probably won't be needed.
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Also the Roach range upgrade should only be to around 3.5 if it is an inherent change. The issue with raising it to 4+ plus is at 5 Terran is forced into Marauder to defend and Zealots lose use at all verse Roaches like why build them at all?. At 4 Hellions become useless to Roaches in the current meta game Hellions can do delay tactics and minimal harass damage to Roaches; if they get 4 range, Hellions pretty much become mid game Reapers only role is to kill workers and Zergling and NOTHING ELSE. It digs so deep into hard counters and the game becomes so much more linear than it should be. If anything Roach range upgrade to 4 could be an T2.5 upgrade or make it part of Roach Speed/Tunneling Claws with increased research time and/or increased cost. It would make Roaches stronger as proposed in the mid to late game while not making the early game totally linear.
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On October 08 2010 06:36 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +To everyone that thinks supply depot before barrracks is stupid:
Zerg = Almost always build an overlord then set down a pool.
Protoss - Needs pylon to power units to warp. Should be mentioned that spawning pool costs 250 (including drone) anyway...
well said.
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Reapers can't out range roaches now, they need factory for the speed, and no rax until 1 depot is down? As a zerg I'm stunned... I'm glad I won't have to deal with the hell that was reaper harassing... but can't the reaper at least be a useful unit? (It IS a cool unit)
I think roach range was enough for zerg to deal with reaper harass, but if blizzard is concerned with the state of reapers in team games I guess this was a needed change
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i still do not agree with the reasoning behind the changes.
Reapers are to powerfull in the matchup? lets change basic terran machanics instead of actualy fixing the reaper!
Zerg tech buildings die to fast to Marauder drops? lets give the buildings more HP! that way Marauder drops will still kill them the fastest, but the other races have now no chance to actualy doing tech sniping!
...yay..?
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everything is awesome, dont agree with the supply before rax though. Go Zerg!
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you realize being able to get out 6 zerglings simultaneously plays some role here in the ability to stop rushes or initiate rushes, versus getting out 1 marine.
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On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:
- zerg building HP increase: Again, I feel like this is another response to Reapers, but since they're getting nerfed into oblivion, so I think this probably won't be needed.
It will still help a little against those stimmed marauders.
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On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot: not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening.
Uh...
1 pylon = 100 minerals
1 depot = 100 minerals
1 barracks = 150 minerals
1 gateway = 150minerals
1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals
So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest?
This change couldn't be more fair.
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On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:
- zerg building HP increase: Again, I feel like this is another response to Reapers, but since they're getting nerfed into oblivion, so I think this probably won't be needed.
Actually I'm pretty sure that it's about the 4-marauder drops that can just target a tech structure with 50 speedlings and 10 mutas attacking them and destroy it anyway before taken care of.
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On October 08 2010 06:44 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:
- zerg building HP increase: Again, I feel like this is another response to Reapers, but since they're getting nerfed into oblivion, so I think this probably won't be needed. Actually I'm pretty sure that it's about the 4-marauder drops that can just target a tech structure with 50 speedlings and 10 mutas attacking them and destroy it anyway before taken care of.
extractor denying ftw!
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On October 08 2010 06:33 VirtuallyLost wrote:
Lol @ Terrans complaining. Shut the hell up and suck it up, and deal with it like us zergs do.
This change is crazy! Roaches could possibly be useful, but im not too sure yet.
To everyone that thinks supply depot before barrracks is stupid:
Zerg = Almost always build an overlord then set down a pool.
Protoss - Needs pylon to power units to warp.
Well anyways, the fungal growth change could help me muta ling build vs protoss. I guess i'll add in one or two infestors to fungal growth them stalkers and get a good surround with my lings :D
I'm a zerg user and I think it's a horrible change. Zerg has the OPTION of ling rushing by going 10 pool, whereas Terran now doesn't. Hell, Zerg has the option of getting 6-pool.
I think it's a stupid idea.
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I think the win% stats are pretty impressive and show that there isn't a glaring imbalance except for PvZ.
I think the changes to Terran will probably be fine, it's a bummer because the threat of reapers helped everyone even if they didn't go reapers, but if that has been reduced to insignificance, we may see more greedy opponents vs T.
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As a Zerg player i sur enjoy this patch but i have a hard time judging it.
I also find strange the "barracks-supply" mechanics they want to include, it gives me mixed feelings.
I also read a lot of comments based on pure comparisons between the race all over this thread, like if you need to have all the abilities of the other race for the game to be fair. I don't buy it at all.
At the end you will see same things with just different names and that's absolutely what we do not want !!
I guess only time will tell !
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I'm a zerg user and I think it's a horrible change. Zerg has the OPTION of ling rushing by going 10 pool, whereas Terran now doesn't. Hell, Zerg has the option of getting 6-pool.
I think it's a stupid idea.
It should be mentioned that a spawning pool costs 250. A gate and a pylon costs 250. And a depot and rax costs 250. This really isn't as unfair as it sounds.
extractor denying ftw!
More like Spire denying and Ultralisk Cavern denying...and those buildings aren't cheap...
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On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot: not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair.
What I meant: 7rax (or earlier) reaper rush (which some would consider cheese) is basically being nullified. Why not also throw in a way to stop 6-pooling and some equivalent protoss cheese? I'm not saying that this was Terran's ONLY cheese strat, OR that the others need to be nerfed ASAP, just that if Blizzard starts limiting cheese, it should be in an even fashion
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On October 08 2010 01:19 Aubergine wrote:
I like the sound of these changes, as many of them apply to Zerg (directly or indirectly). Should help out the Zerg early game a lot.
edit: Here's to hoping they add a CD to Chronoboost and Mule...
So then Larvae Inject should have a CD as well? That would punish bad macro players too much because the whole reason you see someone drop 20 mules is because they havn't been so it's not actually a good thing and same goes for chrono. So the players that cant keep his macro up can use op the chrono and in a way, catch up to a player who has been macroing better.
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On October 08 2010 06:44 ToxNub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:41 cogwheel wrote:- Barracks require a depot: not a fan. I feel like this will reduce Terran cheese, but if Blizzard is limiting Terran cheese, they should probably try to limit P and Z cheese as well. I don't see that happening. Uh... 1 pylon = 100 minerals 1 depot = 100 minerals 1 barracks = 150 minerals 1 gateway = 150minerals 1 pool = 1 drone + 200 = 250 minerals So your "limited cheese" is now exactly equal to protoss and zerg cheese, and you want them to limit the rest? This change couldn't be more fair.
How are 6 zerglings by the time you have 1 marine out "exactly equal"?
The races are different, their production capabilities are not equal, their first combat units are not equal against each other, e.t.c.
Zerg had it's pool cost increased from 150 to 200 in BW to balance them out, and that change certainly didn't even them out with the cost of barracks.
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EPT
