EPT[D] MBS Discussion III - Page 2
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maybenexttime
Poland5558 Posts
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
1. They are really good at design, but they aren't high enough on the company ladder to implement things their way. 2. Related to above, they let their personal preferences get in the way of the overall design goals of the game/company. 3. The long hours and type of monotony of game making doesn't match up to their gaming personality, which for some people is about less monotony (depends I know) or at least a different kind of monotony. 4. Their favorite units/playtype got cut, and they get disgusted. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On February 21 2008 22:53 FrozenArbiter wrote: SC2 is in excellent hands. Like someone else already mentioned, he was lead balancer for dawn of war.... Plus, I'm sure anyone who has ever designed something knows that the designers are generally the most blind to the flaws of their product. Until blizzard gathers a group of current progamers or top amateurs, has them play for an extended time and give feedback... I mean we will still have an open beta probably, but since I anticipate most of those invites going out at conventions, where wc3 and wow players show up a hell of a lot more than starcraft players, I'm worried. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
And they should continue to do so. When the game goes into beta they should even hire one or two people from the Korean scene with good English and make them part time advisers/consultants or something. [edit] FA, do you have any evidence for this? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5558 Posts
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WolfStar
United Kingdom155 Posts
I've been playing SC/BW since it came out and I love it, it is still by far my favourate game. However I'm far from pro. I'm not even a good amature. The reason being not my understanding of the game but my ability to macro/micro/multitask. For that reason I can't wait for MBS and smartcast and automine, why? Because I might stand a chance of winning again  I have an 8-5 job a misses and a house. I, like an ever growing percentage of the game playing population of the world, just don't have time to practice to reach that sort of level. I understand that MBS, as thats what the thread is about, may ruin the competative side of the game and as someone has previously suggested there should deffinatly be an option to dissable it. But guys you can't expect them to cut it, there are too many old codgers (27 lol) like me who can't wait to get the chance of play a match and not just getting totally out produced in 5 mins! To end I would seriously suggest everyone stops moaning and just concentrates on making sure there is an option to turn these features off which is much more achievable as there is no way they will cut them from the game propper. EDIT: Oh and all you guys who think you could do a better job than Blizzard, you love starcraft yeah? Guess what they made it without you last time I'm sure they will do just fine this time. Thanks. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Let me explain why; one of the biggest arguments of the pro MBS side has been that it WONT reduce the gap between players. Most pro-mbs players, at least on here, wouldn't want that I think. I can sympathise with not having the time to get really good at the game, but this shouldn't be a reason to limit how good others can get at it (ie because I can't handle the ball as well as David Beckham I reckon he shouldn't get to handle it at all). You say you want it as an option, the problem with this is two-fold (actually maybe 3): 1) As it stands, it would appear to be the default, and it's almost certainly going to be in ladder play. Well, ladder play is what matters, and you can't have a ranking where people are not playing the same game (no mbs, mbs). 2) I've said this before, but the blizzard GDC conference enforced this and shows they seem to think the same way, so I'll use their terminology: Too many buckets are bad. Basically, splitting the player pool by introducing too many options is bad for the health of the game. You'll already have a split between Melee and Ums (not a huge one since I reckon most people will be a bit of both), some kind of split between 1:1 and 2:2++, and introducing another group isn't desireable, splitting the community almost never is. Thirdly, balance. It will be hard as hell to balance a game both for MBS and without it. If the option was MBS or MBS/No-MBS as an option, I'd go with MBS probably, just because I see the other problems as being quite big. Lastly, I think you might overestimate how big of an impact MBS will have (which might sound weird coming from someone who doesn't really want it). If you are a casual player, good players will still bulldoze you, but you know what? It's not because of the lack of MBS that this happens to you in BW! The game is old, almost everyone who plays has played for years and years upon end. When SC2 is released, and for a few years after, you'll constantly be able to find players who you'll be perfectly even with, mbs or no mbs. After that it's just a matter of finding people your skill level I suppose, I never really disliked losing (well I dislike losing, but I like the period of learning where you get your ass kicked every game, the most) but it might be because I always had the time to practice and get better. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
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NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
On February 22 2008 18:49 WolfStar wrote: There are too many old codgers (27 lol) like me who can't wait to get the chance of play a match and not just getting totally out produced in 5 mins! If there are so many why don't you just vs them instead of good people? I think automatic match making system should actually make this easy for you to do. There's a reason you get out produced in 5 minutes and it's because other players have put in the effort to gain such a skill. They deserve to out produce you in 5 mins. You do not deserve to have an unfair (yes, it IS unfair) added chance to win vs someone who has put in so much more effort. I'm trying not to be harsh but quit with the fucking tears. If you want to win you have to put in the same amount as (if not more than) the player you're playing against. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
This game was dominated by Eldar from it's start to the release of two expansion. Right now, with ridiculous 7 races (and 2 more to come with the THIRD expansion pack) balance isn't really an issue anymore, but back then when it was only four of them, it was Eldar > SM ~ CSM > Ork and an alternate balance pattern of CSM Defiler tech > SM & Eldar & Ork. I've kinda played DoW ladder and I must say the balance issues with it were SO evident that I had no idea why nobody was doing anything. Eldar had close to 60% global winrate on ladder, Orks had < 45%. Basically, there was a thread about Warp Spider unit spawned every single day on the strat forums and another one about Defilers with some minor rants on Word of the Emperor/plasmarines since people at least had ideas of how to counter it. Seriously, balance in DoW was abysmal. So, funnily enough, I can't say that "Dawn of War balance team leader" is a good resume point, their balance team had quite a bad reputation. Nevertheless, it might have to do something with the game's core mechanics, being close to impossible to balance "the right way", so that guy might do better at Blizzard. Otherwise, dunno, I can't probably be considered a StarCraft expert, but I'm one of those few who do understand something about the game and are content with MBS at the same time. I seriously think that there are much more time-consuming tasks at SC than clicking buildings (it seriously takes like 1-2 seconds to click them all and order units), and warpgates simply won't work without MBS. Autoclone, at the same time, is a terrible feature, and if not limited to workers, it WILL ruin the game. Someone needs to take a test and analyze a pro FPVOD to see how much time is being devoted to different tasks. I won't be surprised if actual production takes a little time and most of it is invested into micro, rebinding (seriously, I was amazed when I saw a Reach's FPVOD at how much time he spends to proprely assemble his control groups) and constructing buildings. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5558 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
I have always had this idea. And Tasteless recently said the same thing after actually taking with some Koreans about it. | ||
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
On February 22 2008 18:49 WolfStar wrote: I'm new here and while I understand what you guys are saying about MBS (after reading a lot of posts!) I should like to give another point of view. I've been playing SC/BW since it came out and I love it, it is still by far my favourate game. However I'm far from pro. I'm not even a good amature. The reason being not my understanding of the game but my ability to macro/micro/multitask. For that reason I can't wait for MBS and smartcast and automine, why? Because I might stand a chance of winning again I have an 8-5 job a misses and a house. I, like an ever growing percentage of the game playing population of the world, just don't have time to practice to reach that sort of level. I understand that MBS, as thats what the thread is about, may ruin the competative side of the game and as someone has previously suggested there should deffinatly be an option to dissable it. But guys you can't expect them to cut it, there are too many old codgers (27 lol) like me who can't wait to get the chance of play a match and not just getting totally out produced in 5 mins! To end I would seriously suggest everyone stops moaning and just concentrates on making sure there is an option to turn these features off which is much more achievable as there is no way they will cut them from the game propper. EDIT: Oh and all you guys who think you could do a better job than Blizzard, you love starcraft yeah? Guess what they made it without you last time I'm sure they will do just fine this time. Thanks. Well here is the problem. You are exactly the type of gamer that destroys competative game. You want to be good without getting good. You want an advantage that makes it harder for someone who is better than you to win. Why should you rightfully beat a person who has had more experience and spent more time training than you? Also I challenge you to post a replay of a game if you think "The reason being not my understanding of the game but my ability to macro/micro/multitask." 99% of all people who claim this have really poor understanding of the game. See, there is a very large group of people in this world who believe that they are the shit when it comes to everything. No matter what it is, they think that they possess natural skillz that will mean they will always succeed. The problem arises when they come across something that you cannot just pick up and be good at. Instead of admitting, ok im not capable of this and will need time to practice, they delude themselves and make up excuses so their self perception of being the best is not harmed. "The reason being not my understanding of the game but my ability to macro/micro/multitask." is a common example of this. We see it time and time again. People complaining that the only reason they cant win is because of a UI. Its generally completely wrong and these people have AWFUL game sense, but seeing as such a large number of people fall into this group, its often beleived that the aspect that they bitch about is actually the problem. I mean how couldn't it be, so many people are complaining about it. Dont worry, when starcraft 2 comes out, you'll be bitching about an imbalance which means you cant win, or there will be something wrong with the map/game/computer. You'll just be having a bad day etc. | ||
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Meh
Sweden458 Posts
Anyway, MBS I should think will definitely stay in the game. Blizzard seem to realize they can't artificially gimp the UI because skill shouldn't be defined after who can best overcome a bad UI. But this is Blizzard we are talking about, and I would not not trust any other company to make the next generation RTS. I am confident they will give us the best UI along with a game that still has an unreachable skill ceiling. If not at the release then a couple of years after it. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
Well there is a game like that and it's called DotA and it sucks ass and if you like that then you can go and play DotA but don't play SC cos it's not for noobs ¬¬. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
On February 23 2008 02:02 Fen wrote: Well here is the problem. You are exactly the type of gamer that destroys competative game. You want to be good without getting good. You want an advantage that makes it harder for someone who is better than you to win. Why should you rightfully beat a person who has had more experience and spent more time training than you? Also I challenge you to post a replay of a game if you think "The reason being not my understanding of the game but my ability to macro/micro/multitask." 99% of all people who claim this have really poor understanding of the game. See, there is a very large group of people in this world who believe that they are the shit when it comes to everything. No matter what it is, they think that they possess natural skillz that will mean they will always succeed. The problem arises when they come across something that you cannot just pick up and be good at. Instead of admitting, ok im not capable of this and will need time to practice, they delude themselves and make up excuses so their self perception of being the best is not harmed. "The reason being not my understanding of the game but my ability to macro/micro/multitask." is a common example of this. We see it time and time again. People complaining that the only reason they cant win is because of a UI. Its generally completely wrong and these people have AWFUL game sense, but seeing as such a large number of people fall into this group, its often beleived that the aspect that they bitch about is actually the problem. I mean how couldn't it be, so many people are complaining about it. Dont worry, when starcraft 2 comes out, you'll be bitching about an imbalance which means you cant win, or there will be something wrong with the map/game/computer. You'll just be having a bad day etc. If you've played the game for approx. 10 years and also watch a lot of replays and VODs, you will have a pretty good understanding of the game, but if you only have like up to 150 APM you will get crushed at some point by a faster player no matter what. Time will become your enemy, you might be able to survive quite some time vs. a better player but in mid or late game you will get overwhelmed quickly, even if you two have the same amount of expansions and a comparable economy. This is also how I lose every game vs. a better player: in late game, being outproduced. Sure, sometimes I can see a weakness and exploit it and win earlier, sometimes I win because he makes a big micro mistake, or I'm able to deal heavy damage to him while his army is somewhere else, things like that, but it's often impossible, in which case you can count on me losing. And this is frustrating, in a way. The main problem here is that SC has a very high speed/APM base requirement, and this is only because of UI "obstacles" like SBS. If you don't fulfill this high requirement (it's way too high for players just starting out): - you won't have much success - you won't be able to use some of the more fun or advanced units at all because you're almost 100% busy with the basics - as a result: you won't have fun with the game Now keep in mind that I'm not advocating that all players should stand a chance against a better player. No. It's just about the feeling they get during the game. If all they do is take care of the basics (macro mechanics, base layout, reproducing workers etc.), because the game is so fast and their APM is too low, it means they maybe never have real fun because they don't have access to many features of the game. In SC1, the speed requirement for doing the most basic things is so high that you can't really pay enough attention to the more fun things. And for a ton of players, having to spend so much time for producing units and workers is much less much fun than controlling their army (i.e. micro). This is the core of the problem. And yes, this is really mainly about newbies and average players. The goal is to try to keep a high skill ceiling even with MBS, so that the competitiveness at the progamer level is not affected. But we really need to have this stuff for the lower skill regions. I'm pretty sure that almost every low-skilled player in the world will be happy (i.e. will know that you're truly better) if you "outmicro" or "outsmart" him, but he won't be so happy if you play exactly like him but have a few more units leading to his death because he couldn't click buildings as fast. While this is also some form of skill differentiation, it is not a good one. Just because it takes skill to do so, doesn't mean that it should be in the game, because the skill itself is a "boring" and non-dynamic one. It always is the same, it doesn't change according to the situation. Yes, it works in SC1, and it can also work in SC2, but it's a skill many players aren't fond of. It should be replaced by something else, something better. It's one area of SC1 which should be improved. | ||
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