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So, here is basically what happened:
http://www.teamexcello.com/?p=newsc&id=1457
Here are also some relevant comments from a gg.net thread:
Emerald
Haypro was a top player of ToT and personally i would say that signal has no chance versus haypro no matter if he hacked or not in the qcup finals - And i personally also do not think he did. If haypro would have got caught before the finals he would not have been allowed to play in the grand finals - BUT you would still have played with signal. THERE IS NO REASON to WHY you should get to abuse this situation to your benifit by getting the possibility to replace your player to some1 like Lx or Idra or whatever. If haypro would have got caught earlier, ToT would most likely still have won - And you got to accept that. Dont try to steal a cup win that you dont deserve. Now, that was my PERSONAL view!
And rules are rules... compare to the case of a laggy player. If one player lags, he is replaced but the oponent team are not allowed to change their player unless he also caused any kind of conflict. The trouble-player in that qcup match was haypro, and he was to be replaced. And since he also was (in my point of view) one of tot:s top players, you had already won alot by, 1st: Gettin a second chance to win the league, 2nd: Likely be facing a player not as good as haypro.
But no, instead you forfeit and cry and complain because you wanted to replace your player to someone else that would suddenly give you much greater chances to claim the tournament title than you deserved. Sorry, but this childish behavior really is sickening. You should be happy to get a second chance at all, and a bonus to that facing a player prolly not as good as the original one, that you already lost 0-3 (and i personally really dont think haypro used any form of hacks in those games because there was more dumb moves in them rather indicating the direct opposite.).
Bartar
Emerald what u conclude is this :
"Dont try to steal a cup win that you dont deserve by putting Lx or Idra instead of Signal. Now, that was my PERSONAL view!"
1. You are not damn permitted to judje what we "deserve" to win and not. And if you had enforced ToT to wait just 25 minutes for Idra (all ToTs were online after start a lot more time than that ;o) then we would probably have won it anyways. And last time i checked Lx and Idra were in our roster, do you think that if they both had played vs ToT, you ''deserver'' would have won? If u want to feel sickened with a situation here, feel free to do it when Mondragon refused to pp for Idra and not with my goal to have a second chance for the prize and benefit my players and team. Which in my eyes with Lx (ofcourse he could not play at 20:00cet ;o) and Idra "deserves" more than ToT.
2. You are an admin and your "PERSONAL" view is irrelevant.
At least when i make mistakes or steal wins, im the first one to admit it and suffer the consequences. I don't try find excuses for my choices. I say "this is exactly what i did, judge me".
Do you think that xLo is getting mistreated here?
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basically, emerald feels that our player, signal, deserved to lose because he is not as good as tot. because of that xlo must use signal in the rematch, while tot can choose any player from their lineup to replace haypro.
all of that on top of the fact that in any other league when a player is caught hacking all of his matches are forfeited without question.
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HoHOHOohoho i didnt read but my vote is that xlo wasnt mistreated
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On December 24 2007 04:09 Bartar wrote:
Emerald
... compare to the case of a laggy player. If one player lags, he is replaced but the oponent team are not allowed to change their player unless he also caused any kind of conflict. The trouble-player in that qcup match was haypro, and he was to be replaced.
Makes sense to me.
And also, Haypro wasn't accused of hacking in the finals though, was he?
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On December 24 2007 04:23 IdrA wrote:
basically, emerald feels that our player, signal, deserved to lose because he is not as good as tot. because of that xlo must use signal in the rematch, while tot can choose any player from their lineup to replace haypro.
all of that on top of the fact that in any other league when a player is caught hacking all of his matches are forfeited without question.
I agree. It should be XY from ToT vs. XY from xLo, like a complete new match. You can't compare a laggy-player situation with a kickedfromtheteamhencenotabletoplay-player. It should be just a complete new matchup with whatever players both sides choose.
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On December 24 2007 04:09 Bartar wrote:
Emerald
The trouble-player in that qcup match was haypro, and he was to be replaced. And since he also was (in my point of view) one of tot:s top players, you had already won alot by, 1st: Gettin a second chance to win the league, 2nd: Likely be facing a player not as good as haypro.
In my opinion xLo should have let Signal played this match, no matter who his opponent might be - it's SC, everything is possible. It's second chance, xLo has nothing to lose - the team already lost the first time finals, second lost won't mean anything, but if it's not a lost...
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is awesome32274 Posts
I think xLo should be able to change players too.
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shouldn't signal get an auto in here or I'm alone in this?
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It seems like signal should get w.o orrr both teams replace lol
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Signal should've gotten an auto. At the very least, xLo should be able to repick since it's almost a farce that ToT is getting /rewarded/ for Haypro's hacking.
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On December 24 2007 05:19 KissBlade wrote:
Signal should've gotten an auto. At the very least, xLo should be able to repick since it's almost a farce that ToT is getting /rewarded/ for Haypro's hacking.
It was only proven that Haypro hacked in the game vs Strelok in week 19 of qcup, Haypro was in BW back then so ToT gained nothing from that.
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8748 Posts
On December 24 2007 05:29 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2007 05:19 KissBlade wrote:
Signal should've gotten an auto. At the very least, xLo should be able to repick since it's almost a farce that ToT is getting /rewarded/ for Haypro's hacking. It was only proven that Haypro hacked in the game vs Strelok in week 19 of qcup, Haypro was in BW back then so ToT gained nothing from that.
Irrelevant. ToT gains an advantage by getting to pick their player with the knowledge of who his opponent will be.
Honestly I think it's the league's lack of preparation that is most to blame. If they required each team to list back-up players in case of a replacement, then there would have been no problem.
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I just dont understand why xLo makes a big scene every time a decision doesn't go there way and they make mass forum posts and news posts and leave leagues and stuff...
either play the game or take the loss, doesnt need to make a big deal of it.
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I was initially very surprised too about Haypro when i first heard the scandal as you can see here: http://www.teamexcello.com/?p=forums&f=12&t=390
From the very first time, a lot prior to the new proofs come up and Haypro getting kicked from ToT i proposed to Emerald:
"We no ask for reverse since there are no 100% proof that he hacked in that match. We ask same players to replay at iccup or if Haypro is still under investigation, both teams to replace players."
But imo from his reactions, it is clear that he had decided the winner.
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well in this case haybro game should be w.o for signal cos he was cought using unallowed programs. And its huge + for tot that they have second chance. Xlo have to be allowed to pick any player they want or get w.o straight up...We cant be tolerant to programs like this what ever they are used for
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wow this is why the foreign bw scene sucks
every single major tournament turns out like this
fucking pre madona
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come on Xeris, give me a break... there are 700 euros at stake there and we cant protest? we cant get same conditions if a regame is ordered? imo Emerald knew from the start that a regame would be the best thing for him to get away from the scandal but he personally believed it should be ToT > xLo.
And u think protesting in such situations is crying or just a way to make things open:
1. xLo lost BWCL Season 26 championship because we got 3 points penalty for having Hungtran in team for only 2 weeks in which he played only 1 bwcl match for us and actually lost it ;o
2. xLo won vs LRM in ICCupCL Season 2 but our win was reversed because Castro had played a match for his previous team 1 week ago ;o
Yes rules are rules i know, i manipulated them myself too to get the win vs F2F but i admitted it and took the consequences. No news were made for me, but for ToT yes ;p
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xLo got fucked here. Kind of sad.
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For every time some dimwit says that the US or non-korean countries could have a successful pro scene for BW, think of this shit.
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what you think koreans are magically honest self-sacrificing competitors? every kor cw on west has semi pro friends smurfing and w/e else.
the difference is that once they reach the progaming level its very controlled and regulated, professionalized. you would not have a proleague admin making a decision that benefits a team because they cheated.
and everything being offline cuts out alot of the stuff too.
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Belgium9947 Posts
Well, for once, I KIND OF agree with Bartar.
I think its unfair to let ToT choose another player, but I also think its unfair to let xLo. replace him with Idra or Lx. Bartar, you CAN NOT make the fact that ToT refused postponing critical, you can not use it in this discussion. The fairest would indeed be that HayprO played again, against Signal.
Emerald made an understandable decision, but he should communicate with both team's leaders too. If ToT) agrees to xLo.'s terms, it should be played. And eventhough HayprO left ToT), I think it would still be fair to play this match for ToT)
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In every league, player hacked = got his match reversed
anything to discuss here
who cares if he hacked in that particular game, that wasn't asked never before, shouldn't be asked now
Seems like we have several tot-lover admins
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well I understand that Bartar, but I guess you should be used to it by now!! Anyways, I really don't know what the correct choice would be here =O
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i think its pretty obvious that both teams should get to replace their players, given that theyre not gonna forfeit haypro.
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xLo should be able to change IMO
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yea Xeris and now you understand why sometimes i get too upset. Not only i was the one fucked up but also the one who will probably get the negative image for being fucked up ;o
Idra obvious indeed but already denied cause "ToT deserves to win more".
Imo if Mondragon respected his " wannabe manner image" at all he would step up and say: "We no want this, we will both replace".
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donno is it even worth all this trouble? got nothing better to do ? ;p
maybe the decision wasnt 100% fair, but its "emeralds league" and his rules, nobody forces you to play in it etc :o and yes maybe it sucks but i doubt emerald will change his mind cause you call him an idiot and a totfanboy, id rather say it made him even more unwilling to change his mind.
But i might be wrong
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
wow emerald comes off as the most childish in this whole situation =X
lol @ tournament organizer saying stuff like "you have no chance anyway"
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The bw community is funny, time to get out of here ~
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At first I felt that it made sense that ToT got to pick a new player (since they had to), while xLo shouldn't get the advantage of being able to play with other players all of a sudden. Needless to say, when I was presented with the image of replayed match where ToT had the advantage of matching up anyone against Signal, I could see the problem. There is no good reason why xLo should play the regamed match as such disadvantage - either is a fair regame or no regame. It seems that Emerald wanted to set up a conditional regame to fit what he found much just - in this case not wanting to validate the win of a supposed hacker but still not wanting to ignore the fact that ToT already won that submatch. So, yes, we can probably assume this he has some kind of bias towards ToT.
Yet, I find it a bit silly for Bartar to say "We simply had no chance to win with such a handycap enforced. ToT keeps the championship.". That's like dooming starcraft, saying that match-ups are a deciding factor and that as long as you've seen your opponent play, you can take him down easily. Obviously, Signal would still have every change to win. Of course, for the sake of professionalism in the Starcraft scene, it's good that xLo don't put up with the unfair decision of regaming on uneven terms, but playing the game wouldn't really have presented a problem either.
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playing the game would validate emerald's decision
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On December 24 2007 09:09 poGDI wrote:
The bw community is funny, time to get out of here ~
I thought you were "out of here" years ago.
I haven't seen you post or be around for that matter, in a long time.
Get your ass to Germany for WCG 2008!
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On December 24 2007 09:33 IdrA wrote:
playing the game would validate emerald's decision
Exactly. Its decisions like these that really amateurize (is that a word?) the foriegn scene. Whether he's a head admin or not leaving a critical decision like that up to one person is prone to flaw, but i think xLo really made the right call here in not playing that match.
If you are going to have a rematch, make if fair - especially given these unusual circumstances. If you allow one team to change player, allow the other team.
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tot should get an auto loss for the match because a hack was involved. Although its harsh on tot, its the price they pay due to haypros actions.
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imo if you're caught cheating at any point in a tournament every one of your games should be overturned
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Yes, as I say, to forfeit was the professional thing to do and a decision which I approve of. My point was simply that xLo could still have played the match with a good chance of winning, and it wouldn't have been a big deal. This is to point out the difference between "no chance" in the words of Barter and "unfair conditions" as I put it.
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Ye Bartar. Maybe you should tell the community the full story instead. I am getting sick of you and your methods to try getting a cheap win - Or if your battle now is just about trying to miscredit other people.
Since i want to put an end to this and explain everything behind my decision once for all, i've supplied the whole story for those who like plenty of reading.
http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread/188440
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....
you can post another 40 paragraphs. that doesnt change the fact that you're rewarding tot for using a hacker in a clan war.
and the fact that you, as an admin, say "Haypro was one of ToT:s best players and my judgement tells me that Signal, to be realistic, would not have been able in any way to pull that BO5 victory against haypro. " and use it in part to make your decision is fucking ridiculous.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
....So i just read the post on gg.net. How can you blatantly admit a bias in your decision making and then claim that it is fair? Hopefully tournament organizers will learn that this is what happens when you have 1 guy making the final call. The defense for Emerald's argument is not only "haypro is better than Signal" but that in retrospect you should have made a better call at the time.
If it you allowed xLo to delay without penalty so that you could have final matches, then that is your issue. It is not relevant to the question of whether xLo should be allowed to replace their final player when ToT was given the option. xLo is being punished then by your poor management at the time of the event. Very amateurish.
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United States4991 Posts
I sympathize that Bartar may have acted like an idiot during the tournament, but the fact is that ToT had a hacker play for them, and now they get an advantage by picking anyone they want to play in the final and also knowing their opponent ahead of time. Which is completely ridiculous. Whether or not you like Bartar is irrelevant to the decision made about this.
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this is why I hate admins who think they are cool because of some "power" they have.
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Let this be the example of how not to run a tournament.. i think as most ppl i tend to dislike bartar, but the way this tourney is run is just absolutely horrible and you should be ashamed of yourself emerald... xlo should have gotten the win, but if you play a rematch at least do it fair...
well basicly all things have been said, you are just biased and make a decision that makes no sense... too bad...
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i am admin for the bwcl sinsce several years now and i had to deal with bartar in more than one case. as he states on page one he was "mistreated" by us also although i still believe that we made the right decision and that xlo was treated like every other clan. i really dont like they way bartar always trys to blame people who are working for the community but:
this time i think the situation is different, i think emerald had 2 options
- on the one hand he could give a w.o. to xlo and nobody could complain about it
- on the other hand he still believes that haypro was clean, therefor a rematch would be o.k, and i also agree that signal has to play. but tot should also just use players which where avaiable at the clanwar time. i can not see a reason why tot should get the advantage to pick the player they want for the match while xlo cannot. both teams should use a player who was avaiable at the original clanwar.
but i still dont like the way bartar trys to change the decision. as u can see he states misleading facts (idra 5minutes 2late etc) which can lead to wrong interpretations. also i am not sure wether forfeiting was the right way because an admin decision is still an decision u have to follow - there will always be decisions a clan doesnt agree with and to forfeit every time will not bring any good.
just my 2 cents
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emerald is trying to be misleading too, bartar said i was 25 minutes late, not 5.
i dont know if 25 is accurate cuz i dont know when the cw officially started (i came on as soon as i got home), but emerald is exaggerating to try to make himself look better. doing the same thing he accuses bartar of doing.
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Exactly what Insane said.
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On December 24 2007 07:17 IdrA wrote:
i think its pretty obvious that both teams should get to replace their players, given that theyre not gonna forfeit haypro.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
1) Imo, at this stage of BW development teams should not be harshly penalized for one of their players hacking. They don't even share the same country, how can the manager possibly control if some idiot starts hacking (well, in case of haypro, maybe not idiot). That is, either the team, or the player, but not both. Therefore, ToT should not be stripped of the win just because haypro hacked a month ago (and still quite a misty story).
2) If a team fails to appear in time, technical loss. THAT EASY, and nothing would've happened.
You see, Emerald, once you disregard the rules even for the sake of human feelings (we're 5 minutes late, may we, PLZ PLZ PLZ), you're being dragged into an avalanche of having to make bad decisions. If xLo didn't want to start the CW in time, well FUCK THEM, after all, it's them who want the money.
While the issue is quite controversial, we have two cases of post-factum decisions:
1) ToT being penalized for their player hacking long after it actually happened. In fact, if haypro didn't hack in the GF, the sole decision to replay his games is questionable. Why not replay ALL games involving Haypro then, starting from 2005, for example? But here comes penalty number one - ToT has to throw the dice at the finals again because their player was caught hacking.
That issue is quite apparent. But there is another issue.
2) xLo being penalized for disregarding tourney rules and being late for the CW. They didn't provide their desired lineup for the first time, and, since they should've got a technical loss, shouldn't be allowed to send a replacement now.
Both decisions are bad. Both are essentially re-decision (changing decisions made right away after the stuff happened). But they both have been done, and I must admit xLo behaved extremely childishly in the whole story. Let it be this way, if they don't want to take another chance, let them. It's not like I'm fond of the situation, but it's fair from a certain standpoint.
+ Show Spoiler +I still remember that Strelok's TvT on WGT where he clearly lost but lifted his buildings and begged for draw despite PGT handling such situations as non-draw. Every single time I hear of xLo, I hear of bad manner or abuse. Coincidence?
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it has nothing to do with me and lx not being there at the time of the cw. we couldnt make it, shit happens. the problem is that, since there has to be a regame since haypro was caught hacking and they arent gonna forfeit him, it is unfair to allow tot to change their player and not xlo. tot can choose any player from their remaining lineup with full knowledge of who theyre going to be playing against. if signal's tvp is his worst matchup they can send out their best remaining toss, or whatever. based on that fact alone we should both be allowed to change players, especially since it is tot's fault there has to be a regame in the first place.
also if you read emerald's ruling, he says that the reason xlo cannot replace signal is that he wont allow us to use any players who were not present at the tiem of the clan war. however he is allowing tot to use any player from their lineup, regardless of whether or not they were present at the time of the clanwar.
it all boils down to the fact that emerald thinks tot deserves to win the clanwar, and is going out of his way to make sure they do.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Well, in that case I think the best choice would be ToT providing a player pool of several unused players, and using a random number generator to decide who plays vs Signal. Somewhat harsh for ToT, but not that harsh as allowing a player pick for xLo.
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somewhat harsh?
they used a hacker, this is a punishment. theyre getting off easy in being allowed a regame at all. when a hacker is caught in any league, including qpad (part a section 2 of their rules) every match they played is automatically forfeited.
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On December 24 2007 05:45 NonY[rC] wrote:
ToT gains an advantage by getting to pick their player with the knowledge of who his opponent will be.
Honestly I think it's the league's lack of preparation that is most to blame. If they required each team to list back-up players in case of a replacement, then there would have been no problem.
This is the best explanation/view on this that I've seen. I'm surprised no one has quoted this yet.
In all honesty, it is unfair that ToT gets to pick a player with the knowledge of who their opponent is going to be. Why should xLo have to sit back and watch as ToT possibly picks a player who's going to be Signals worst MU?
It would only be fair that both teams submitted a new player to Emerald and have them announced at the same time.
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so what is signals worst mu anyways ;p
btw section A + 2 says, "2 - A team can be removed from the league by admins by any of these reasons.
- Team cheats or abuses. (Single players fault will result in punishment for the whole team that the represents.)"
yet again, i didnt see haypro "cheating" (its obsurd to call it that anyways) in tot, he was in team-BW and it doesnt say what the exact punishment is. so section 2 doesnt really cover this particular incident very well, and the punishment given already could very well be sufficient one if the admin(s) says so with the reversing of game(s) which they did eventho it was pretty clear that haypro didnt hack in those games.
Section C + 4 covers the cheating alittle more tho as it doesnt give the admin much room for deciding himself what punishment to give rather a strict one.
"4 - Cheating gets the players whole team instantly removed from the league. Using non-allowed hacks/tweaks and account sharing is regarded as cheating. Cheating might result in team to be added to the blacklist."
Again it doesnt really point out if BW, ToT or both should be banned ? a really weird rule tho imo sidetopiced cause as stated above its not the whole teams fault that someone cheats, but the rule is there and well maybe it was written in haste or smnth.
So..! Imo Idra you should stop using the "tot was rewarded for hacking lolololz" and "hacker hacker" all the time cause u know that ToT actually won fair and square and saying that haypro could have hacked in the final aswell is just like saying I a caught hacker could have hacked in the final aswell...actually anybody could have hacked in the final aswell.
So while i agree that um maybe not the most fair decision was made i would have understood it aswell if it was the other way around and i doubt you would have said it was the wrong decision then, i dont agree on that ToT was rewarded ... how is from a 3-2 win to a 2-2 tie and a regame rewarding ?
Lastly i couldnt actually read anywhere where it says that a player caught hacking anytime should have his games reversed, unless its meant as a standard rule for all leagues...eventho i agree on that it is probaly the best and safest thing to do, cause yes eventho some ppl who obviously hate haypro or hate the idea of hackers would never consider the possibility of haypro being innocent of the maphacking you should very much actually do consider it atleast alittle :p
hmm i type too much
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The difference between you and Testie hacking in the final is you got caught hacking years ago (2003) and Haypro is, Haypro got caught a few weeks ago. The other players have never done anything for people to mistrust, Haypro has and very recently.
I could see ToT having to use one of the members who was at the match play but not anyone on their roster. Signal would have played the match regardless if ToT sent Haypro, Zelotito, Gosia, or whoever out there.
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maybe, but as i said in the other thread who knows what player logged out or didnt come at all cause the rooster in tot was full? i wouldnt know exactly, but should maybe be taken into consideration, but nobody except mondi+the players in question would know who were available for that game. So since obviously selector cant be used and for all i know gosia is a spankmonkey in tot as we speak i donno if it would be THAT fair as Idra and the others make it sound with tot only using their "available" players.
We all know by now that Idra couldnt come for xlo :p and signal obviously was the best player available there atm, so since xlo had their best player available written in stone already it would be the choice to either trust mondragons honesty about who really was available for tot or just let tot chose from whomever is left in the squad, dont see any other options left if its to follow the "players available" rule.
Well thats how i would see it 
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yet again, i didnt see haypro "cheating" (its obsurd to call it that anyways) in tot, he was in team-BW and it doesnt say what the exact punishment is. so section 2 doesnt really cover this particular incident very well, and the punishment given already could very well be sufficient one if the admin(s) says so with the reversing of game(s) which they did eventho it was pretty clear that haypro didnt hack in those games.
do you think they go through and check every single game when they reverse a hacker's results in clan league? no, they dont. each game is not forfeited because the person cheated in every single one. the games are forfeited because 99% of the time there is no way to tell if the person is hacking or not and by hacking and getting caught at least once they lose the benefit of the doubt. haypro proved he had the hack on his comp. he proved he used it to gain an advantage in a competitive game, and then he lied about that. because of that none of his results can be trusted.
i agree with you, theres a good chance he wasnt hacking in the finals. theres a decent chance that game vs strelok really was a one time thing. but there is no way to know, and the fact that he has demonstrated himself willing to cheat invalidates everything.
and you should stop saying its 'pretty clear' he wasnt cheating. how long did you get away with it before you got caught? its not always obvious when someones hacking. and if he was using some of the more subtle oblivion features theres almost no way to tell.
Lastly i couldnt actually read anywhere where it says that a player caught hacking anytime should have his games reversed, unless its meant as a standard rule for all leagues...eventho i agree on that it is probaly the best and safest thing to do, cause yes eventho some ppl who obviously hate haypro or hate the idea of hackers would never consider the possibility of haypro being innocent of the maphacking you should very much actually do consider it atleast alittle
well, that is the standard rule. wgtcl does it, bwcl does it, i think iccupcl does it. but xlo isnt even asking for that. all we want is a fair rematch.
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the things that u quoted from me, Idra, wasnt really the ones i put much energy into since its impossible for anyone but haypro to know 100% if he hacked or not  but now that u mention it, yes alot of ppl did probably go through almost every haypro rep that they had got and it was really simple to see which games that this hack had been used in and that would be this 1 game against strelok with the use of automining in the start, then the answer to that would be "but haypro probably turned the automining off on all other games since he was the only smart hacker and could forsee that automining would be spottable on bwchart" and then i would answer "but then he wouldnt have been so stupid to let it slip 1 game which he obviously noticed right away which he then would know would catch him along with the other hackers since he released it into a replaypackage by himself" and then we would all agree on that its 99.9% sure that haypro only accidently used it in 1 game!
Also you mentioned it took a while to catch me personally, and yes when bwchart was in beta i was instantly caught with games that were about 3 months old if i remember correct cause all the reps that i had used hack in i was clicking on everything visible on the map that was interesting such as hydra den, citadels, robos etc since there was no way for me or any other players at that time to forsee that bwchart would ever be created :p same way as there was noway for haypro to forsee that bwchart would detect automining...so whilst maphack is very hard to detect for an experienced maphacker automining was not hard to detect.
Anyways it wasnt really what was supposed to be discussed in this thread but i rabble on pretty good when i start typing 
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I think if Haypro hacked in the game, admin should give xLo a win,not a regame.
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On December 25 2007 14:46 TreK[cF] wrote: the things that u quoted from me, Idra, wasnt really the ones i put much energy into since its impossible for anyone but haypro to know 100% if he hacked or not but now that u mention it, yes alot of ppl did probably go through almost every haypro rep that they had got and it was really simple to see which games that this hack had been used in and that would be this 1 game against strelok with the use of automining in the start, then the answer to that would be "but haypro probably turned the automining off on all other games since he was the only smart hacker and could forsee that automining would be spottable on bwchart" and then i would answer "but then he wouldnt have been so stupid to let it slip 1 game which he obviously noticed right away which he then would know would catch him along with the other hackers since he released it into a replaypackage by himself" and then we would all agree on that its 99.9% sure that haypro only accidently used it in 1 game! Also you mentioned it took a while to catch me personally, and yes when bwchart was in beta i was instantly caught with games that were about 3 months old if i remember correct cause all the reps that i had used hack in i was clicking on everything visible on the map that was interesting such as hydra den, citadels, robos etc since there was no way for me or any other players at that time to forsee that bwchart would ever be created :p same way as there was noway for haypro to forsee that bwchart would detect automining...so whilst maphack is very hard to detect for an experienced maphacker automining was not hard to detect. Anyways it wasnt really what was supposed to be discussed in this thread but i rabble on pretty good when i start typing
well i only quoted the relevant parts. the only thing i didnt address was you talking about the rules, and since emerald obviously is ignoring the rules those dont really matter. (like you said if he did follow them part 4 would dictate both bw and tot banned without question)
as for the automining yes, that uncertainty is why there should be a fair regame and not an outright forfeit. in this case it does seem more likely that it was a one time thing. however that does not change the fact that he purposefully cheated in at least one match, which again throws all of his games into question. unless you can find a way to PROVE that he didnt hack in anything else it has to be assumed that he did, since he has demonstrated that he has the hack, is willing to use it in a competitive game, and has tried to cover it up.
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okey i guess, i dont have much more add about the hayprothing then
But remember that emerald is a person too and if he did a mistake maybe he learned from it now, he is not an extremely experienced tournament hoster eventho he has hosted a couple of offline tournaments aswell, and i think him changing his mind this late would look really weird... also an apology would be very hard since it seems in emerald repons that he feels pretty insulted by bartar and feels bartar spread lies about what really happened.
or im not really sure what bartar and u are after in this thread idra, apology or reverse of decision?
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On December 25 2007 21:50 TreK[cF] wrote:
...
or im not really sure what bartar and u are after in this thread idra, apology or reverse of decision?
$$$
But I do agree that a fair rematch would be the best solution. It aint ToT's fault that Haypro hacked (once?Cant believe it but there is no other proof) in the past while still in another team, but there should still be some sort of punishment to set an example to all teams: no hackers allowed. For that reason a rematch sounds like the best way out of this; or with the players online at the time, or where each team can pick any player.
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sure but the problem remains that its unknown what totmembers were available for that particular game and as i said before just cause somebody wasnt online doesnt mean he couldnt instantly log on if really needed, myself forexample...altho i doubt i was needed
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weird or not it would be in place...
and i think everyone with some common sense knows he is wrong.. anyway just a fair rematch should be ok and tot should be very happy with that...
i think by apologizing now and reversing the decision would show he is a man that is not afraid to admit his mistakes... i think that should be the only right action, although i too do not think that is likely to happen..
the thing that bartar insulted him... well he should be above that and it shouldnt influence his decisionmaking... he is wgt admin after all they should be used to critisicm and such...
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But when did i insult him? Because i didnt accept the order for his kind of "fair regame" ;o and said we will forfeit? Because i presented to the community the 100% facts as they happened here :
http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread.php?id=188440&start=40
comment #50
and answered with proofs to his lies? In the bottom line, did or he did not ban Haypro from Qcup? What Qpad has to say about this?
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I have mixed feelings, but kind of lean toward excello in this matter; the other side was caught cheating. In fact, since they were caught cheating, instead of regaming I would disqualify the player and count it as a loss... because he broke the rules and needs to be punished more than a "Whoops, you got caught! Our bad!"
I would prefer either a reselection of both players, a random selection of players, or Haypro's game count as a DQ loss.
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Sounds like xLo got screwed here. We all know xLo doesn't have a great past but they did get screwed this time.I would bitch about this situation to after all it is $700 euros.
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Awww...forget it...
No sympathy towards the hacker.
His Team is DQ'd, everyone suffers and loses, and those wronged get the title, the money, and the honor.
Nothing against any player as a person, but we shouldn't tolerate cheating.
gg no re
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shhh 
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i normally dont agree with bartar but in this case i also think they both should put a new player in and replay it, even if he didnt hack or so that match i do think the penaltys are to low for hackers now anyway.
people who hacked just contineu playing leags and other teams get out of a devision or so because another team used 2 seasons a hacker this never get reserved either.
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On December 26 2007 00:31 Bartar wrote:But when did i insult him? Because i didnt accept the order for his kind of "fair regame" ;o and said we will forfeit? Because i presented to the community the 100% facts as they happened here : http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread.php?id=188440&start=40comment #50 and answered with proofs to his lies? In the bottom line, did or he did not ban Haypro from Qcup? What Qpad has to say about this?
I dont know the answer to that im not emerald and i cba to read through all of your posts finding the insult(s) if there are any all i said was it SEEMED in emeralds post that he was insulted by you, i just explained why i would find it very unlikely for emerald to apologize. all ive seen is that u have called him a liar several times and he has called u basically the same so i dont see you2 getting along very well in the future.
The thing for me is that u bartar reminds me alot of bingbong and sgravo when they tried to get to "the top" by prettymuch talking bad about tot or discredit them, you dont have to concur or deny this...but it just seems that way for me and im sure im not the only one who see it that way either.
Maybe i got it all wrong, im not online on bnet so much i mostly read the forums and talk to randoms tots from time to time.
EDIT : speaking of the devil hi bingbong..beat nada 3-0 lately?
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Bartar honeslty your a tool, HayprO didn't hack vs signal, and the chances are you will face a lessor tot, since haypro was and is amazing player.
He hacked int hat 1 game vs Strelok, his account makes sense. Show me him hacking vs signal or anyone else, even a little bit of evidence in another rep and i will beleive it. But until then, Haypro fucking totaled you, you lost in the final Signal vs HayprO, i think it's fair that signal gets a reamtch if the rules dictate that if he was caught hacking anywhere that he's fucked, even though he didn't hack anywhere outside of that one game.
Now signal gets another shot to take the gold, tell me why you should be alowd to replace your player? I really see no reason. Your getting another shot vs another ToT, deal with it. Feel lucky that your trying to play it off that haypro is some evil hacker like Hungtran or something. But he' snot and you know it.
Basically your getting a shot at winning something that you shouldn't and are trying to manipulate the circumstances some more to assure that you win it.
But then again i'm not 100% sure on hoq Qcup works or anything, so maybe your alowd to choose a player for a final, but then that means you already chose Signal ofr the final, and why should you get to choose a different player who you tihnk has a better chance when you already chose him and lost? It makes no sense.
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TreK you wouldn't think like that about me if you actually knew me^^.
Without any harsh feelings at all, trust me, i no need reach the top by overunning ToT. I'm perfectly happy with what i have built and where i have come, even if this means a top2 behind ToT or top3,4,5 behind any other team out there. I run my team for almost 3 years and we have our long history, tradition and big list of impressive awards. Im definetely not obsessed with winning ToT;o But that doesnt mean i will not work hard to defeat them in every single match. And ofcourse 700 euros are a big moto for my players and me who see gaming more professional.
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On December 26 2007 02:23 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:
Bartar honeslty your a tool, HayprO didn't hack vs signal, and the chances are you will face a lessor tot, since haypro was and is amazing player.
He hacked int hat 1 game vs Strelok, his account makes sense. Show me him hacking vs signal or anyone else, even a little bit of evidence in another rep and i will beleive it. But until then, Haypro fucking totaled you, you lost in the final Signal vs HayprO, i think it's fair that signal gets a reamtch if the rules dictate that if he was caught hacking anywhere that he's fucked, even though he didn't hack anywhere outside of that one game. can you prove hungtran hacked in all of his wgtcl games? nope, you cant. why were all his results reversed?
also, his account vs strelok doesnt make sense. it was a lie. read strelok's posts on the matter.
Now signal gets another shot to take the gold, tell me why you should be alowd to replace your player? I really see no reason. Your getting another shot vs another ToT, deal with it. Feel lucky that your trying to play it off that haypro is some evil hacker like Hungtran or something. But he' snot and you know it.
Basically your getting a shot at winning something that you shouldn't and are trying to manipulate the circumstances some more to assure that you win it.
what the fuck are you talking about? he purposefully hacked vs strelok in a competitive game and then lied to cover it up. how is that any better than hungtran? and signal needs to be replaced because otherwise tot can choose their player while knowing who hes going to be playing vs, which is obviously unfair.
But then again i'm not 100% sure on hoq Qcup works or anything, so maybe your alowd to choose a player for a final, but then that means you already chose Signal ofr the final, and why should you get to choose a different player who you tihnk has a better chance when you already chose him and lost? It makes no sense.
its a regular clanwar, not a tournament like the regular season. dont post if you dont know whats going on.
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United States20661 Posts
Purposefully hacked vs Strelok? what? did I miss something?
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at first he claimed he just left oblivion on accidentally (because he uses it to obs.) vs strelok. but then strelok posted saying he was lying, first time they played haypro left after 15 seconds because of "sound issues" and then they re'd and played the full game. the game played after the re was the one where he was caught hacking, meaning it had to be done purposefully.
so its haypro's word vs strelok's word, they were friends before this whole thing and strelok has nothing to gain from lying, while haypro obviously does, so its pretty clear haypro was lying.
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Idra : you always take up the same things, fact is that haypro only was caught in 1 game with automining without knowing that the automining function (that is on by default) would be the factor to get caught as ive said so many times now...hence him "hacking" in only 1 of the 3 games makes very little sense, infact him hacking in 1 game of 50 000 games makes even less sense.
So maybe streloks and haypros stories didnt match 100%, there is nobody to back up nobody, and just cause someone of the 2 either remembers wrong or whatever the deal is because it happened 1 month earlier before haypro was caught, yes it is possible that the mighty strelok remembered wrong eventho aparently being so sure, its also possible that haypro remembered wrong...its not definate that somebody LIED and covered up things.
According to you haypro firstly "played 15 seconds and left cause of sound" and left the game, didnt rejoin bnet (afaik) and then went on to play with the autominingfunction in the next game which makes no sense cause if he had the hack on from game 1, which he would have had to since you aparently cant turn it on unless being activeonline at bnet(which he didnt leave afaik), he could have just turned it on IN the game 1 which was restarded after 15 seconds against streloks which strelok claims (pushing insert starts maphack).
It also makes no sense that haypro would then use this hack in 1 game of oh so many games, we can prettymuch agree on that automining and maphack went hand in hand since nobody knew that automining was detectable on bwchart and since it was on by default.
So stop the "haypro was lying" the deal was NOT that haypro said he hacked in 1 game and we found out several other games that he had hacked in like the deal was with all other autominingcaught hackers
You cant base your whole "case" on that streloks and haypros stories didnt match.
You may say that haypro did automininghack against strelok in 1 game cause he was caught doing that, you may even say that haypro used maphack in that very game if u so will since there is noway to know that he actually didnt use maphack in that game now that automining was on, but you may not say he lied to cover it up cause that is just speculations along with him using it in other games. So aslong as we are discussing anything else but haypro caught using automining (and maphack) against strelok in 1 game it is just speculations
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actually you can base everything off that one game. the fact that they re'd and he still had it on in the second game proves it wasnt accidental(unless he just didnt notice that his drones split themselves in the first game)
and if it wasnt accidental the whole 'it was a one time mistake' excuse falls apart.
not really sure why you're arguing that, even emerald agrees that he deserved to be punished for the game vs strelok(otherwise haypro vs signal from the finals would stand).
and once again, the fact that he wasnt caught with automining in any other games does suggest that it really was a one time mistake. but, once again, there is no way to know and he ruined his credibility by using it the one time, even just by having it on his computer. however the fact that it does seem likely that it was a one time thing is why we only want a (FAIR) regame, and dont want his match forfeited outright.
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ofc i agree that he should be punished for his use of hack in that one game.
i just find it funny that u base your whole case on that strelok remembers 100% right and haypro is a liar, without taking into account that it happened 1 month ago.
My personal believe is that they played 1 game and haypro accidently still had his hack on after obsing for about an hour, he was too ashamed to say anything and/or he didnt think the autominingsplit would matter and for some reason decided he would turn it off for the next game, i dont 100% see the logic in that but at that moment he made that decision, in the next game he forgot to turn it off and blamed sound for restarting bw to turn off the hack, this is obvious speculations from my part but it sure looks more like a valid story.. honestly?
ive never argued against that haypro shouldnt be punished, im guessing u dont read very much of what i type in my posts
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He had oblivion on his computer. Don't be so naive. He did lie, outright.
He's a hacker and a liar and someone who generally doesn't give a damn because that's just his persona.
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...
so you think its more likely that strelok just randomly imagined that they had to re than that haypro lied to cover the fact that he was hacking?
well if you're willing to go to those lengths to protect haypro it isnt really worth discussing this with you.
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From what I've heard from multiple people, Haypro and Strelok played a couple different times and Strelok mixed up the matches.
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I'm sorry guys but it's a total lie. When we played with Haypro, semifinal of qcup, i appeared on top right position. After 10-15 seconds of game haypro said : "OMG, i have problems with sound. I need to restart BW!" And then he left game even no asking my agreement on that. I remember that good because of 2 reasons: i specially checked replay to see may be he got drone stuck, lost a bit of minerals and that's why out. And second thing is that i appeared in top-right potisions, which i liked less then down left, so i thought, well it's not bad he out, may be i'll be more lucky next game. But next game i was same position. Game was very important, cause if i'd win it, xLo would qualify to semifinals without last round needed, so i remembered all very good... I'm 100% sure in what i said. It's not like i forgot smth or didn't remember exactly. I'm 100% sure in my words. Pity i deleted those both games so long ago. But I'll try to use some recover files program, I doubt it will work though. Never the less, i do not say he always hacked in all games or something like that. I just say that situation was like this.
doesnt sound like he mixed them up. they did play in the 2nd to last week and strelok did need to win to guarantee xlo a playoff spot.
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On December 26 2007 04:26 MYM.Testie wrote:
He had oblivion on his computer. Don't be so naive. He did lie, outright.
He's a hacker and a liar and someone who generally doesn't give a damn because that's just his persona.
you speak of own experience i guess?
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On December 26 2007 05:00 IdrA wrote:
...
so you think its more likely that strelok just randomly imagined that they had to re than that haypro lied to cover the fact that he was hacking?
well if you're willing to go to those lengths to protect haypro it isnt really worth discussing this with you.
donno why u dont read what i write and instead put words in my mouth, "randomly imagined" yes i clearly said that...
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On December 26 2007 04:20 TreK[cF] wrote:
My personal believe is that they played 1 game and haypro accidently still had his hack on after obsing for about an hour
you believe they only played one game. strelok says quite clearly they played 2, the 15 second game then the full one after the re where he hacked.
so, according to you, strelok is either lying or imagined the entire first game.
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On December 26 2007 05:20 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +
I'm sorry guys but it's a total lie. When we played with Haypro, semifinal of qcup, i appeared on top right position. After 10-15 seconds of game haypro said : "OMG, i have problems with sound. I need to restart BW!" And then he left game even no asking my agreement on that. I remember that good because of 2 reasons: i specially checked replay to see may be he got drone stuck, lost a bit of minerals and that's why out. And second thing is that i appeared in top-right potisions, which i liked less then down left, so i thought, well it's not bad he out, may be i'll be more lucky next game. But next game i was same position. Game was very important, cause if i'd win it, xLo would qualify to semifinals without last round needed, so i remembered all very good... I'm 100% sure in what i said. It's not like i forgot smth or didn't remember exactly. I'm 100% sure in my words. Pity i deleted those both games so long ago. But I'll try to use some recover files program, I doubt it will work though. Never the less, i do not say he always hacked in all games or something like that. I just say that situation was like this.
doesnt sound like he mixed them up. they did play in the 2nd to last week and strelok did need to win to guarantee xlo a playoff spot.
i have already read that statement, do you think im basing my theorys without reading streloks statement first? its still possible that strelok mixes up game 1 from game 2, making up and remembering wrong is not the same thing, maybe we can agree on that?
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On December 26 2007 05:39 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2007 04:20 TreK[cF] wrote:
My personal believe is that they played 1 game and haypro accidently still had his hack on after obsing for about an hour you believe they only played one game. strelok says quite clearly they played 2, the 15 second game then the full one after the re where he hacked. so, according to you, strelok is either lying or imagined the entire first game.
i meant game 1 i think, not 1 game
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My personal believe is that they played 1 game and haypro accidently still had his hack on after obsing for about an hour, he was too ashamed to say anything and/or he didnt think the autominingsplit would matter and for some reason decided he would turn it off for the next game, i dont 100% see the logic in that but at that moment he made that decision, in the next game he forgot to turn it off and blamed sound for restarting bw to turn off the hack, this is obvious speculations from my part but it sure looks more like a valid story.. honestly?
no it isnt valid. he still had the hack on after he left/blamed sound and restarted bw. that is the game he was caught with the hack on.
i dont think you understand the series of events.
they started the first game, they hadnt played before that, haypro said he had sound problems and left/restarted bw after 15 seconds. after that they started the new game, that new game is the one where haypro was caught hacking.
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He has oblivion on his computer. What's more to say?
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you're doing logical backflips just to try to find a scenario that *might* be a valid explanation as to how he hacked accidentally.
the simplest solution (by far) is he hacked, on purpose, and lied to cover it up when he got caught.
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On December 26 2007 05:39 TreK[cF] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2007 05:20 IdrA wrote:
I'm sorry guys but it's a total lie. When we played with Haypro, semifinal of qcup, i appeared on top right position. After 10-15 seconds of game haypro said : "OMG, i have problems with sound. I need to restart BW!" And then he left game even no asking my agreement on that. I remember that good because of 2 reasons: i specially checked replay to see may be he got drone stuck, lost a bit of minerals and that's why out. And second thing is that i appeared in top-right potisions, which i liked less then down left, so i thought, well it's not bad he out, may be i'll be more lucky next game. But next game i was same position. Game was very important, cause if i'd win it, xLo would qualify to semifinals without last round needed, so i remembered all very good... I'm 100% sure in what i said. It's not like i forgot smth or didn't remember exactly. I'm 100% sure in my words. Pity i deleted those both games so long ago. But I'll try to use some recover files program, I doubt it will work though. Never the less, i do not say he always hacked in all games or something like that. I just say that situation was like this.
doesnt sound like he mixed them up. they did play in the 2nd to last week and strelok did need to win to guarantee xlo a playoff spot. i have already read that statement, do you think im basing my theorys without reading streloks statement first? its still possible that strelok mixes up game 1 from game 2, making up and remembering wrong is not the same thing, maybe we can agree on that?
no it isnt possible. qcup semi finals are best of 1. therefore the full length, real game (the one haypro hacked in) had to be the last game played. there would not be another game played after it.
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ic, then im not sure, since final was bo5 i thought that semifinal was bo3 i thought i had checked that already :p
im sorry about that then !
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On December 26 2007 05:47 MYM.Testie wrote:
He has oblivion on his computer. What's more to say?
ye aiope was much better, what a noob
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Belgium9947 Posts
On December 26 2007 05:20 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +
I'm sorry guys but it's a total lie. When we played with Haypro, semifinal of qcup, i appeared on top right position. After 10-15 seconds of game haypro said : "OMG, i have problems with sound. I need to restart BW!" And then he left game even no asking my agreement on that. I remember that good because of 2 reasons: i specially checked replay to see may be he got drone stuck, lost a bit of minerals and that's why out. And second thing is that i appeared in top-right potisions, which i liked less then down left, so i thought, well it's not bad he out, may be i'll be more lucky next game. But next game i was same position. Game was very important, cause if i'd win it, xLo would qualify to semifinals without last round needed, so i remembered all very good... I'm 100% sure in what i said. It's not like i forgot smth or didn't remember exactly. I'm 100% sure in my words. Pity i deleted those both games so long ago. But I'll try to use some recover files program, I doubt it will work though. Never the less, i do not say he always hacked in all games or something like that. I just say that situation was like this.
doesnt sound like he mixed them up. they did play in the 2nd to last week and strelok did need to win to guarantee xlo a playoff spot.
oh cmon he "accidentally" deleted the replay off his computer? .. and dont tell me you actually believe that recovery story
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he didnt say he accidentally deleted them, just that he deleted them. most people dont keep reps they have no use for.
but how does that matter? we have the rep anyway because it was uploaded on the site
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Emerald didn't even bother to reply ;o He just burried it.
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Seems like super bullshit. If ANYOTHER TEAM would of been caught with a hacker they would a) Have the match W.O or b) be able to choose another player along with the other team. Seems like the admin just harbors bad feelings towards Bartar so he's not going to be bias about it.
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meh meh, this discussion isn't getting anywhere, it's just like idra and trek and bartar circling back and forth.
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the public has spoken anyway and this worked as an opportunity for many shit to break open. nothing hidden is the best way nomatter if we will all be judged.
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Norway28637 Posts
what the hell. i gotta say i completely agree with bartar here.
when haypro is caught cheating in this tournament every game he has played should be reversed. obviously this might not be possible in every single instance (e.g you cannot reverse a game he played in the early rounds of the tournament affecting what teams got to play later) but wherever it is possible, this is what should be done. if, you instead, choose to replay any match haypro played in, (which is a bit nicer towards tot, and in light of the slight ambiguity regarding haypro's hacking, perhaps even more fair. (although then again this would set the precedent of rewarding a hacker and a hacker's team for denying having intentionally hacked.. ) ) then you should obviously allow both teams to replace their players.. this just screams of biased admin-work. I don't even understand the justification for stating that tot can replace their player but xlo cannot.. it just makes no sense, other than well, the admin wanting tot to emerge victorious..
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i just cant understand why he denies it when it's so damn obvious. I would respect him more for clearly saying "ToT is better than you" than all this mambojambo that we didn't have other player online, that ToT is manner, Signal is weaker than Lx, Idra etc. ;o
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I believe something like this with such obvious bias is going to ruin the future of this league. Hopefully the admins won't be so arrogant as to see that.
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Just hilarious how Emerald is taking care of this situation .. pff this just shows how corrupted wgtour is..
Emerald + Xeris = Mafia powa!! I just dont know what the fuck they earn doing this.. Drama?
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United States4991 Posts
This was not a WGT thing, it's something he was doing on the side.
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well that sucks
means hes not accountable to anyone for his decision
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United States4991 Posts
On December 27 2007 06:27 IdrA wrote:
well that sucks
means hes not accountable to anyone for his decision
Only to qpad itself, I guess (and I highly doubt they would get involved in it). But yeah, he was the head admin for it, and his decision is final, I believe.
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and Qpad just sitting there and doing nothing. w/e
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On December 27 2007 05:44 ohoh~troubles wrote:
Just hilarious how Emerald is taking care of this situation .. pff this just shows how corrupted wgtour is..
Emerald + Xeris = Mafia powa!! I just dont know what the fuck they earn doing this.. Drama?
you can call me Don Xeris, or just big poppa, that'd work too.
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That post by Emerald at gg.net is hilarious. The fact that he brings up arguments such as "Signal would have lost anyway" is plain ridiculous. He did pretty much everything wrong he possibly could. I agree that Bartar was just bm (the case regarding the delay of the final games by continuing to play LRM), but that just shouldn't be used as a base for deciding a completely different situation.
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On December 27 2007 05:44 ohoh~troubles wrote:
Just hilarious how Emerald is taking care of this situation .. pff this just shows how corrupted wgtour is..
Emerald + Xeris = Mafia powa!! I just dont know what the fuck they earn doing this.. Drama?
you are a typical example of a guy that knows nothing and trashes a lot
what you earn? nothing at least no brain
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Osaka27140 Posts
On December 26 2007 23:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:
what the hell. i gotta say i completely agree with bartar here.
when haypro is caught cheating in this tournament every game he has played should be reversed. obviously this might not be possible in every single instance (e.g you cannot reverse a game he played in the early rounds of the tournament affecting what teams got to play later) but wherever it is possible, this is what should be done. if, you instead, choose to replay any match haypro played in, (which is a bit nicer towards tot, and in light of the slight ambiguity regarding haypro's hacking, perhaps even more fair. (although then again this would set the precedent of rewarding a hacker and a hacker's team for denying having intentionally hacked.. ) ) then you should obviously allow both teams to replace their players.. this just screams of biased admin-work. I don't even understand the justification for stating that tot can replace their player but xlo cannot.. it just makes no sense, other than well, the admin wanting tot to emerge victorious..
This sums it up perfectly. I am actually astounded that there is debate about this. Emerald showed terrible bias in his explanation, and no matter what anyone's personal opinion of Bartar is (I dont know him at all) it seems obvious that ToT is getting the benefit of some shitty admin work. Yet another reason to not follow the foreign scene.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
terrible decision by emerald, bartar is in the right here 100%
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On December 27 2007 09:01 Mandalor wrote:
I agree that Bartar was just bm (the case regarding the delay of the final games by continuing to play LRM),
wouldnt be so sure about that either. emerald flat out lied when he said bartar claimed i was 5 minutes late. you can see in his posts that hes always said i was 25 minutes late.
pretty good chance emerald is bullshitting to make himself look better on that too.
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game shouldn't be replayed to begin with ffs
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 27 2007 09:21 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2007 23:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:
what the hell. i gotta say i completely agree with bartar here.
when haypro is caught cheating in this tournament every game he has played should be reversed. obviously this might not be possible in every single instance (e.g you cannot reverse a game he played in the early rounds of the tournament affecting what teams got to play later) but wherever it is possible, this is what should be done. if, you instead, choose to replay any match haypro played in, (which is a bit nicer towards tot, and in light of the slight ambiguity regarding haypro's hacking, perhaps even more fair. (although then again this would set the precedent of rewarding a hacker and a hacker's team for denying having intentionally hacked.. ) ) then you should obviously allow both teams to replace their players.. this just screams of biased admin-work. I don't even understand the justification for stating that tot can replace their player but xlo cannot.. it just makes no sense, other than well, the admin wanting tot to emerge victorious.. This sums it up perfectly. I am actually astounded that there is debate about this. Emerald showed terrible bias in his explanation, and no matter what anyone's personal opinion of Bartar is (I dont know him at all) it seems obvious that ToT is getting the benefit of some shitty admin work. Yet another reason to not follow the foreign scene.
Yup because horrible admin work NEVER happens in the professional korean scene... oh no. Never.
Some of you need to take a deep breath and relax. Yeah there is a bias here. But guess what? Anyone claiming to be unbiased is a fucking liar. For once being a famouly manner and legit clan is paying off. Haypro is given the benefit of the doubt that his hacking was not some huge scandal that he had been running under everyone's nose. He hacked "accidentally" a month ago for another clan and it is JUST NOW caught. His games vs Signal WERE LEGIT as they were played before the cleansing and hackers had no idea about turning off auto mining. He won 3-0 LEGITLY and those games were at risk of being reversed or facing a different result because Haypro was a moron to some scale a month ago for a different team. I understand when teams are unfortunate and get that match reversed, despite said conditions. But alas, here I also understand NOT doing that and NOT punishing ToT for a mistake one of its members made a month ago on a different team. Signal should not be replaced by one of the 40 other xLo members who didnt/couldnt (care) make the CW on time. ToT replacing Haypro with one of its members (all showed) is fine. Lx and IdrA are far and away different players from Signal and xLo should not be able to play a player who wasnt originally available. Besides, Haypro was one of our top players. Replacing him with one of our available players (non mondragon/xiaozi/gohan, which are all 3 of our TOP players) helps xLo. Especially considering they lost a match legitly and can only seek to win a match they had previously lost.
I know a lot of you probably think I am incredibly wrong and thats fine. I just think ToT does deserve some leniency. Which bothers a lot of you to no end because you see it as favoritism. I see it as deserved credit. ToT has been around for a very long time. Always trying its best to do the right thing and representing the foreign community as a manner/legit/skilled clan that can compete with the world. Haypro wasnt a "hacker." He was a skilled bw player that hacked in a single game. Reversing all his games a month later that he played legitly because he hacked in the past and was just now caught is unjustified. I am all for punishments. Thats why Haypro was banned from all leagues and kicked from the top clan. He will bare the cross of a hacker despite it being a mistake.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 27 2007 10:07 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2007 09:01 Mandalor wrote:
I agree that Bartar was just bm (the case regarding the delay of the final games by continuing to play LRM), wouldnt be so sure about that either. emerald flat out lied when he said bartar claimed i was 5 minutes late. you can see in his posts that hes always said i was 25 minutes late. pretty good chance emerald is bullshitting to make himself look better on that too.
No that one is correct. We were all waiting up until the very last minute AFTER Emerald set up a "limit" that was time of the CW + 30 or so minutes. Bartar used the LRM cw to stall for the CW against ToT. Could have started / announced lineup while a match was being played but he milked every minute to wait for Lx/IdrA showing up. Not that big of a deal because an admin (Emerald) forced him to start but Bartar was pretty sleazy for pulling the move and flat out ignoring ToT requests for starting of the CW on time.
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of course he did. our lineup was killed by the fact that they held a clan war on a fucking wednesday morning and didnt allow postponements. he did his best to work around that.
what i meant was the accusations that bartar was bming/threatening at the beginning of the LRM) clanwar.
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Control, if you were on the outside looking in I don't believe you'd say, "Yeah, ToT shouldn't be penelized and they should get to replace there player ALONG with xLo not getting to do that." If you cannot see the huge disadvantage in that you are arrogant beyond belief. Regardless of hypro winning "legitly" he did, infact, cheat and that is not questioned. Anyone else in anyother team would be getting flamed, matches reversed, and having their team punished. I'm not saying it's ToT's fault, but it deffinitly isn't right.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 27 2007 12:09 tonight wrote:
Control, if you were on the outside looking in I don't believe you'd say, "Yeah, ToT shouldn't be penelized and they should get to replace there player ALONG with xLo not getting to do that." If you cannot see the huge disadvantage in that you are arrogant beyond belief. Regardless of hypro winning "legitly" he did, infact, cheat and that is not questioned. Anyone else in anyother team would be getting flamed, matches reversed, and having their team punished. I'm not saying it's ToT's fault, but it deffinitly isn't right.
You misused arrogant.
If I was on the outside I would have a different opinion, you are right. Refer to the second portion of my post where I lay out that we _all_ have biases. You identified one of mine!
Lets not talk about disadvantages. It was disadvantageous to ToT that Haypro made a single mistake BEFORE joining ToT one month ago that was ONLY NOW brought up. If haypro was some infamous hacker and this method proved that he was hacking in various games and not just a single instance I would be of the mind that ToT deserves to lose the match. Being as it is, I think special conditions are necessary. xLo should not be rewarded for Haypro's mistake. They are already rewarded in the sense that Signal could have played another bo5 against a weaker opponent and had the chance to win a series he had already lost (CLEANLY).
Anyone else want to comment on my bias or favoritism can go ahead and consider it "posted." I know I am biased, I know I favor ToT. Now that that is aside consider my post anyways. If you think Haypro is comparable to a Hungtran, Dino or some of these other hackers you are horribly wrong. That is, until more replays are found of Haypro. And nobody even whispered that he was a potential hacker. He is a very clean player with a very tiny brain evidently.
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I agree xLo should not be rewarded, but neither should ToT in the sense that they would already know who they would be playing and can set something up accordingly. In all honesty I believe the match should just be reversed and be made a 3-0 for Signal on W.O. I say this as a complete unbiased bystander;)
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Its funny you guys keep saying ToT has this huge advantage of knowing the opponent! I can promise you that NONE of the non polish ToT members even knows Signals race. I can also promise you that ANY of the players that would have replaced Haypro would have been an easier opponent for Signal than Haypro. Haypro's best mu is ZvT. He is one of the best T killers in the non korean world atm given Testie retired, Draco is fairly inactive and Sen is racially confused atm/inactive. Signal would have most likely faced Gosia or Me/Squall. Sure we fancy ourselves as good Z's... but we are definately not going to claim to be better than Haypro.
Anyways, ToT is not being rewarded at all. We are being punished (understandably lightly btw) for the individual mistake of a non ToT member 1 month ago who happened to become a ToT member after winning the biggest euro lan. Said player than WON 3-0 CLEANLY and is being punished for something that happened a month ago. xLo had the chance to breath new life, but that breath wasnt fluffy enough for them so they stupidly chose to remain defeated.
[edit] I just realized the horrible irony in the first part of my post.. so non of the non polish/non ME ToTs
eheh
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On December 27 2007 12:34 tonight wrote:
I agree xLo should not be rewarded, but neither should ToT in the sense that they would already know who they would be playing and can set something up accordingly. In all honesty I believe the match should just be reversed and be made a 3-0 for Signal on W.O. I say this as a complete unbiased bystander;)
But how would that be fair for tot? Haypro never hacked when playing for tot so why should he have his scored reversed?
IMO it should be a regame with players that were present at the CW. Or, if both teams agree, it can be a regame between 2 players that were not present. This is how i see it being most fair for both of the teams
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8748 Posts
Geoff we don't all have biases when we're just picking what kind of "justice system" the BW community should use. Should we judge hackers/cheaters on a case-by-case basis or would it be better to just give proven hackers 0 credibility and not hear their "justification" at all? I think most people that are against Emerald's decision aren't considering anything specific about Haypro at all and they're not biased pro-xLo or anti-ToT or anti-Haypro or anti-Emerald or anything. They simply believe that when a hacker is caught even once, it's a no-brainer to forfeit his recent matches. If you believe in a "soft" system where you examine the person and his story and the context and then adjust the punishment, then surely bias comes into play as you say. But I don't think the community can handle a system like that and a hard system with zero tolerance is the best bet.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
If the method for said hacking was only revealed recently why reverse games we KNOW he wasnt hacking in? Since all of Haypro's replays in the last several months have turned up only 1 incident why reverse games we KNOW he played legitly? Especially since its not like its "hit or miss" its completely known that he only did it in one game a month ago. Its a no brainer to let legit games count. Overturning recent games was the policy of the past because hack detection was not 100% and hackers have never claimed it was an accident and actually had evidence back it up (as Haypro has had). This hack detection is 100%. None of these hackers knew to turn off the auto mine function. When they were caught NUMEROUS replays displayed them hacking, why is it only Haypro has a single replay with a hack on and it was played 1 month before the reality existed that the hack could be detected? All this begs for special circumstances. So determining the justice parameter for this asks for biases. People claiming to have none when they are addressing a unique situation on the fly is insane, that was my point.
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On December 27 2007 12:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
He is one of the best T killers in the non korean world atm given Testie retired, Draco is fairly inactive and Sen is racially confused atm/inactive. Signal would have most likely faced Gosia or Me/Squall.
not gonna go into the rest of the argument but, having played all of you, gosia at the least is definitely way better zvt than haypro.
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It's just sad when one of the good guys gets fucked over cuz of the zero tolerance system.
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read pages 4/5, he is not a good guy. it might have been a one time thing but it was not an accident, as he claimed
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I don't even want to get into that again. I already know all the facts that's being displayed on page 4/5. There's no one in the swedish community that's ever been so humble and hack free. Saddens me that he has to take huge amounts of crap from people that know shit.
Anyways Bartar is a whining bitch, I've seen nothing but huge ass posts as soon as he loses something big. It's like he's bound to twist and turn shit for 2 weeks until he lets it go and takes the loss. Last time which was just today where he faked a printscreen just to get a win over us in BWCL Cup. Nice going Bartar!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 27 2007 12:59 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2007 12:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
He is one of the best T killers in the non korean world atm given Testie retired, Draco is fairly inactive and Sen is racially confused atm/inactive. Signal would have most likely faced Gosia or Me/Squall. not gonna go into the rest of the argument but, having played all of you, gosia at the least is definitely way better zvt than haypro.
Knowing media logic this means you beat gosia and lost to haypro Something I happen to know! Haypro is definately better ZvT sorry to say. Gosia is very good however, and would most likely roll Signal.. but anyone in ToT would. Haypro just did it 3-0 and easily.
Have the replays from Qcup been released? If hayder hacked in them this debate is mute. I think I read that he didnt though... but anyways the reps would be nice Please release!
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Osaka27140 Posts
On December 27 2007 11:55 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2007 09:21 Manifesto7 wrote:On December 26 2007 23:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:
what the hell. i gotta say i completely agree with bartar here.
when haypro is caught cheating in this tournament every game he has played should be reversed. obviously this might not be possible in every single instance (e.g you cannot reverse a game he played in the early rounds of the tournament affecting what teams got to play later) but wherever it is possible, this is what should be done. if, you instead, choose to replay any match haypro played in, (which is a bit nicer towards tot, and in light of the slight ambiguity regarding haypro's hacking, perhaps even more fair. (although then again this would set the precedent of rewarding a hacker and a hacker's team for denying having intentionally hacked.. ) ) then you should obviously allow both teams to replace their players.. this just screams of biased admin-work. I don't even understand the justification for stating that tot can replace their player but xlo cannot.. it just makes no sense, other than well, the admin wanting tot to emerge victorious.. This sums it up perfectly. I am actually astounded that there is debate about this. Emerald showed terrible bias in his explanation, and no matter what anyone's personal opinion of Bartar is (I dont know him at all) it seems obvious that ToT is getting the benefit of some shitty admin work. Yet another reason to not follow the foreign scene. Yup because horrible admin work NEVER happens in the professional korean scene... oh no. Never.
You are a moron if you think the mismanagement that happens in almost all foreign tournaments is at all comparable to what happens in Korea. Im not reading any more of your posts in this thread because it will simply be blind defense of tot and arguments that detract from the real issue. The problem is simple, and drone summed it up perfectly. the end.
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haypros zvt isnt particularly good. the match he beat me a 9 pool and early 3 hat lurk ling gave him a huge advantage, watch our games from ggsl or the other few times we played. he has mediocre at best macro, no sense of when to exp or tech, and mondragon himself said haypro blows with defilers.
gosia has very good macro in general, which is more than enough vs any foreign terran.
and, once again, it doesnt matter if he didnt have autosplit on in the rest of the games. for all we know the vast majority of people using oblivion never had it on because its really not a very useful feature, and only the idiots who used every single function on the hack got caught. maybe haypro didnt usually use autosplit but had it on accidentally vs strelok, who knows. the whole point is he blew his credibility, he obviously has the hack and is willing to use it in competitive games, so you cannot assume he was clean in the others.
you're right, the situation does call for special circumstances because it does seem likely that it was a one time thing, that is why he shouldnt receive a forfeit, as he theoretically should according to the rules of qcup, wgt, bwcl, iccup, etc.
also, your argument that knowing signal would be our player is not a big advantage for tot is irrelevant. for all you know your next best player (lets say its gosia) would be the overall best choice, but absolutely cannot beat signal (for whatever reason) and so, given knowledge of our player, you play instead and win easily. obviously just hypothetical, but the point is still valid.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
kinda, the hypothetical is false and doesnt apply to ToT as I said, any ToT will and would beat Signal. Hes bad He HAD to play cause no other xLo's showed beyond the other 4.
Manifesto7: My defense wasnt "blind." As people are arguing it. But you'd be a moron to actually think its "blind."
Korean tourneys dont have as many fuckups because they are televised and have hundreds of thousands of dollars in them. But guess what we can compare it to? West tourneys. And guess what has 10x MORE fuckups in each tourney than non korean ones? You guessed it, korean west tourneys. As it has been stated before koreans have a love affair with abusing/hacking/name switching that actually goes beyond non koreans. The language barrier just seperates most of us from knowing half the extent of it.
Anyways, I think you should probably back off. You admit you are about as detached from the non korean scene as is possible. Your only reference is to the korean professional circuit which is for the most part, completely different from the non korean unprofessional scene.
And IdrA we can agree to disagree I guess. I just have lots more experience with both of them so I would ask you consider that, not that you would (Most likely). And yes, by experience I mean ZvT (observation/replay etc).
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Kind of a cheap shot at signal saying any ToT could "roll" him. I'm faily confident he could take games off a good number of you. Maybe even take a series. Really though, we shouldn't be arguing among eachother this is really Emerald's fault for the faulty admin job.
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Iraq1230 Posts
ToT shouldnt be blamed for mistake I did when I played in a different clan. I do regret that I never re'd that game vs Strelok. What I did was stupid and its understandable that lots of u think that Im lying when Im saying its a one-time mistake.
I had the hack on in the game vs Strelok yes, but I never maphacked in that game and not in any game before or after that.
My game vs signal should be replayed but Bartar said no and forfeited, and then he started making all those forumthread on various sites.
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Geoff, the funny thing is that probably 90% of the tl.net members would like to see ToT win that finals. Bartar doesn't exactly have a good reputation for obvious reasons, while ToT is known as a very mannered clan. But this shouldn't affect an admin's decision. Emerald's decision was obviously favoring ToT by far. Nobody knows if haypro hacked in that finals. I believe that it was a one time thing, but we just don't know. He could have easily maphacked with oblivion, the auto-mining thing turned off, or he could have dled some other maphack and used that. We just don't know. It wouldn't be fair to give a 3-0 WO to Signal, because a) Haypro wasn't in ToT when he used Oblivion and b) There is only one game (+ the 15 seconds one) where we know he hacked. Still, by giving ToT the opportunity to choose whichever player you got in your lineup vs a known opponent, this is an auto-win. Even if it wasn't Signal who had to play (I'm really sorry for this guy btw, he's being bashed on even moreso than haypro), but let's just say Idra, you could easily just let your best player in that mu play and have a very decent chance of winning it.
I know this isn't ToT's fault at all and I think we can all agree on that, but I'm sure ToT would have a decent chance of winning the remaining match anyway regardless which xLo plays. Idra and Lx are amazing players, but you guys have amazing players left as well.
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At last, iNcontroL spoke. I was waiting 3 days for him to comment something (holidays i guess) and i must admit when he started posting he was quite inspired. But it was exactly the kind of reply i wanted. From all what you said Geoff i will not bother at this point to confront them one by one and prove that you are trying to cover ToT, which is total understandable since you are kinda the soul of team, while bming me and my team. At this stage i will only comment on something you said on your very first post:
"I just think ToT does deserve some leniency. Which bothers a lot of you to no end because you see it as favoritism. I see it as deserved credit. ToT has been around for a very long time. Always trying its best to do the right thing and representing the foreign community as a manner/legit/skilled clan that can compete with the world."
When i read that i didn't know if i should laugh or cry. Because from my own experince ( and i REPEAT from my own) that was a very "unlucky" statement from you. And i will explain myself by what i posted on a related gg.net thread when ToT)Raudo( provoked me. I will not post the link, i will copy/paste the whole damn thing because it seems some ppl here have missed it:
"#126 Raudo - i just returned from football league, im hell tired, i have work to do for team, wgtcl etc. but because you provoked me i will be happy to do some research and remind you and the community some things. If you want to speak about shits, sure lets talk about shits! :
1. BOSS defeats ToT 4-0 in FBL1 final. There are no manner problems at all and even Mondragon comes at our site after and posts "gg". I'm happy we won but not a single time i thought we are a better team or the new ToT. We had simply reached the top very quickly and it was time to work for staying there. After this result, i thought Mondragon would be happy to play some friendly cws vs us. But every time i asked he refused. The reason was that he did not like our team, he considered it like a no team, just a bunch of players coming in cws. Yea sure, sataNik/shaman/strelok/ra was not a team ;o. Anyway, i could undertand him if he was hurt for loosing FBL or afraid to lose again. But it damn hurts not to be considered exigent ;o
2. December 2nd 2006, ToT vs BOSS for BWCL Premier Season 2:
Sen vs White-Ra 1-2
Testie vs satanik 2-0
Mondragon vs Shaman 2-1
Xiaozi vs Mistrzzz 1-2
SquaLL vs Strelok 0-2
Mondragon/Testie vs White-Ra/Raiser 2-0
Xiaozi/LJT vs Raiser/Strelok 2-1
As you can see we lost 2-5. What's the catch here? We could have won 4-3 if it was not for Mondragon's tricks. I will explain:
White-ra is tied 1-1 with Sen and he gets to pick map. Mondragon is obsing them. Ra chooses to pick 8.15 which he had prepared and has clear advantage over Sen. But Mondragon tells him: "Come on, be a man and don't pick an ubalanced map". And Ra who was fan of Mondragon like all players were, agrees, picks other map and looses. I remeber him telling me after that he would sure win if it was 8.15 and how mad i was with him for changing ;o
Then to the 2v2s. Our 2v2 teams at that time were Strelok/Ra and Drafi/Raiser. Very good teams, expecially Ra/Strelok were undefeated everywhere. But Drafi was late registered at site and Mondragon enforced me to change teams or forfeit. Who would have thought it that the original and untouchable ToT was actually afraid of loosing vs a new team?;o I had no other choice, he was calling admins etc. and i made teams that had never before played together ;o. I'm convinced that at least one of the original teams would have owned. Is it certain that we would have won if it was not for Mondragon's bm? No, we cant be sure but i remeber how much robbed i was feeling after the cw...
3. March 18th 2007, ToT vs xLo for FBL Season 2 :
iNcontroL Strelok 0-1
Xiaozi Strelok 0-1
Hullah Strelok 1-0
Hullah Pj 1-0
Hullah Legend 1-0
Hullah White-Ra 1-0
Hullah wins all 4 super gamers mostly with rush tactics and luck in maps they picked.
http://sc.gosugamers.net/gosubet/1 1520/50
#60 phaib @ 2007-03-18 18:48:40
How has Hullah become that gosu? I'm really impressed
#67 xLo.Bartar @ 2007-03-18 18:55:51
ggs ToT.
#69 ToT)iNcontroL( @ 2007-03-18 18:58:02
very good manner by xlo. gg's
I feel you guys will come in second (at least) if not a playoffs or something. GL vs mym
What's the catch here? Hullah was caught hacking by Mondragon some months ago;o Have you seen him online lately?;o Why was not this ever became publick? Btw iNcontroL, unfortunately in the playoffs we were eliminated by Hungtran:
tt1 < pj r-point
hungtran > pj longinus
hungtran > beckham rush hour
hungtran vs legend longinus
Hullah or Hungtran were hacking in these games or started hacking later? We will never know. But what we know is that Strelok/Pj/Legend/Ra/Beckham lost a bo1 vs them, expecially in maps they chose ;o give me a break...
4. September 1st 2007, ToT vs xLo for ICCupCL Season 1:
xLo won
xLo.DinOt vs ToT)XiaOzI( 2-1
xLo.Fenix vs ToT)ZelotITO( 2-0
xLo.Strelok vs ToT)sQuall( 2-0
xLo.Shaman vs ToT)controL( 1-2
xLo.loid / xLo.MarCinu vs ToT)LJT( / ToT)XiaOzI( 1-2
The catch? Mondragon was in wcg. iNcontrol admined the match and there were no manner problems at all.
So, you see Raudo that i do think and my memory is pretty good. History wrote that we lost vs ToT, not wether we deserved to lose. I didn't cry, i just moved on. But from my own experience this whole thing about the "holy ToT" is shit. And im free to say it since all the above are true. If Mondragon thinks that im lieing at something let him come here and respond instead of putting puppets to speak for him. Have you ever seen him to post anything?"
So at this point Geoff i only need a simple answer from you. All this was the "right thing" by your "holy" ToT? Did or did not Mondragon caught Hullah hacking? And if hungtran and Hullah were indeed hacking (which is the most probable) back from FBL2 time who will give us our money back?
Now, if you will continue to try defending your "manner,legit" team which is just shit in my opinion (because i repeat, this is just what i got from interacting with it), i will answer to your opinions one by one just like i answered to Emerald here:
http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread/188440/40
reply #50
ps. Im fucking tempted to answer to your " Signal should not be replaced by one of the 40 other xLo members who didnt/couldnt (care) make the CW on time. " and your obvious dislike for my team but for now i will save it...
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Maybe haypro isnt better than gosia at zvt but wjhat haypro aims mostly for is timings, saying that he doesnt know when to exp or tech is like saying that savior doesnt know it either since haypro has studied savior ever since savior arised as a maestro, haypro is a replay generation guy. :p
haypro has timings and clockworks for every event that happens in the game , maybe he doesnt always think outside the box but he did at dreamhack and that made him win, dont know why u hate him so much anyways idra , dont become testie please...it was already anoying enough at his time
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btw bartar your points are valid but stop talking about "Mondragons tricks" before i slap you in the face, its very retarded
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8748 Posts
Geoff there are zero games you KNOW he wasn't hacking in except the DreamHack LAN games so you have no argument like "don't reverse his clean matches." Your "knowledge" is based on his story but any level-headed administrator has no choice but to ignore everything he says.
There is no committee of arbitration for hackers and I think your arguments that we all have bias is good reason why such a committee could never exist. So, lacking such a committee, when it comes to participation in a competitive online event, there is no such thing as hearing out a hacker's story or establishing his credibility or adjusting punishments based on context or anything like that. The only choice for handling a PROVEN hacker is to reverse his matches and ban him from events for a while.
+ Show Spoiler +On a personal note, I believe Haypro and I'd happily practice with him without worry of being cheated. Kinda like if a loved one committed a crime, it would not necessarily destroy your good faith in that person, but you'd understand that society needs to punish him. I think that's the most sensible position for you to take...
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you just have to take his word same as you have to take mine and testies word that we dont hack until proven otherwise, inwitch he will be in even more shit if he lied about it...and his ban will be even longer since im guessing haypro is aiming at one day come back to play for jokes and shizzles
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I think that Bartar is just trying to get the last breath and win the 700 euros price, he wasent even on ToT in the game where he hacks, i just think that this is childiss, but anyone sees money and turn into animals.. amazing!
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I think the bottomline is he needs to be punished before we welcome him back with open arms like our Trek's and Testie's. Not only that, but ToT needs to be punished for his actions. You cannot be 100% sure he wasn't hacking in the other games. He could of been one of the smart ones that actually usually had automine off for all we know.
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TreK i said numerous times "from my own experience" and i explained. don't be offended.
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You should stop talking about other ppls manner you hit with stones in your glashouse
Your team is like a trainstation so tells a lot about your teamspirit, you promiss ppl money that you wont pay to draw them into your team and you post constantly your hughe stories about your problems in leagues and tournaments more as every other teamleader. You are the trickser and not Mondragon, say what you want but his team at least works without soldiers and lies.
This case has nothing to do with Mondragon, he did not make a decision, he is not the player that got caught so this is between you, Haypro and Emerald, or was it your plan to force every ToT member to answer you in a bad way that you could whine " see they are all bm to me"?
You should find a better thing to waste your holidaytime Mr
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his accusations against tot and mondi are a perfectly valid response as half of the arguments supporting emerald's decision are based on how tot is such a mannered, fair-playing team who doesnt deserve to be punished for haypro's actions. he demonstrated that thats not necessarily the case.
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exactly. also Ilvy the difference between me and you is that i express an opinion and i always back it up with facts, links, proofs etc. you only express "airtalk" and you demand people to believe it ;o. you wouldn't even dare to come in a debate with me about how i trully work, how my team has progressed through years and what we have won.
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I do not demand it, ppl could follow itself how you remove and add player randomly because you stand behind them 100%.
Atm you have cute clantagcarriers where some of them already proofed that they aren´t able to play in foreign leagues since they won´t play at 2 - 4 am and i could not see that you could make other teams caring about that and pospone all their matches, not talking about their lagproblems
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Austin10831 Posts
It's inconceivable that xLo isn't allowed to choose their replacement player under these circumstances.
This admin, Emerald, is apparently a magnificent asshole. I can't fathom how an admin can make proclamations or value judgments like that and still expect to hold even an ounce of impartial credibility.
Really now, this shouldn't be about who likes ToT or xLo or Bartar or Mondragon. Allowing ToT to tailor their pick to counter Signal is an unequivocal advantage, regardless of how little people say they know about him. I don't know how good or bad signal is, and this really has nothing to do with his relative skill.
In the end, being allowed to choose a new player is a benefit that should be extended to both teams or neither team. If you're going to come along and justify such a poor decisions with things like "signal has no chance versus haypro no matter if he hacked or not in the qcup finals" and "If haypro would have got caught earlier, ToT would most likely still have won", next season just save us all the trouble and give the prizes to whomever you think is most likely to win.
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On December 28 2007 12:03 Ilvy wrote:
You should stop talking about other ppls manner you hit with stones in your glashouse
Your team is like a trainstation so tells a lot about your teamspirit, you promiss ppl money that you wont pay to draw them into your team and you post constantly your hughe stories about your problems in leagues and tournaments more as every other teamleader. You are the trickser and not Mondragon, say what you want but his team at least works without soldiers and lies.
This case has nothing to do with Mondragon, he did not make a decision, he is not the player that got caught so this is between you, Haypro and Emerald, or was it your plan to force every ToT member to answer you in a bad way that you could whine " see they are all bm to me"?
You should find a better thing to waste your holidaytime Mr
they just steal the best non koreans from other teams
=-)
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Lulz, you guys got shanked.
I died a little on the inside agreeing with Bartar, but meh.
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I was thinking in make a report of this case as news in our latin site, but it is so huggggee... :S
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Ilvy omg. You show your hate so clearly tt.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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xLo got some nice chinese pick-ups.
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On December 29 2007 03:47 Flaccid wrote:
Lulz, you guys got shanked.
I died a little on the inside agreeing with Bartar, but meh.
Okay I have nothing to do with this whole fiasco. I barely read anything, don't really care, but I love this post! =D
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On December 30 2007 04:21 Bartar wrote:
Ilvy omg. You show your hate so clearly tt.
I do not hate ppl over the internet, its childish but i am free to be honest enough to tell ppl when i do not like them, since i hardly like ppl that abuse others for their own purpose.
I have nothing against your team since the ppl in it change as fast as the weather in april and i won´t judge ppl by clantag
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Qpad sent answer that they just sponsor the event, they don't admin it and totally support what Emerald decides. ggs.
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Austin10831 Posts
It's a shame emerald seems too proud to correct such an obvious mistake.
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On December 30 2007 07:06 Ilvy wrote:
I have nothing against your team since the ppl in it change as fast as the weather in april and i won´t judge ppl by clantag
get off your high horse. at the height of it's popularity ToT was stealing the best gamers from every other clan and killing competition in the community. at least pay teams like xlo and mym are bringing more of a pro-gaming, competitive attitude to the scene, instead of just stealing all of the best gamers because they can.
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Xlo should withdraw from any toruney run by emerald in the future, to avoid more conflicts, because clearly having read all this topic and some pages in the GG.net one i can only conclude emerald is a retard for making such a poor decision.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 31 2007 04:28 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2007 07:06 Ilvy wrote:
I have nothing against your team since the ppl in it change as fast as the weather in april and i won´t judge ppl by clantag get off your high horse. at the height of it's popularity ToT was stealing the best gamers from every other clan and killing competition in the community. at least pay teams like xlo and mym are bringing more of a pro-gaming, competitive attitude to the scene, instead of just stealing all of the best gamers because they can.
Yeah thank god we have xlo and mym to save this poor community from the evil tot empire
rofl
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is awesome32274 Posts
I agree with BroOd in every post.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
~insert dramalama pic here~
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On December 31 2007 05:55 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2007 04:28 IdrA wrote:On December 30 2007 07:06 Ilvy wrote:
I have nothing against your team since the ppl in it change as fast as the weather in april and i won´t judge ppl by clantag get off your high horse. at the height of it's popularity ToT was stealing the best gamers from every other clan and killing competition in the community. at least pay teams like xlo and mym are bringing more of a pro-gaming, competitive attitude to the scene, instead of just stealing all of the best gamers because they can. Yeah thank god we have xlo and mym to save this poor community from the evil tot empire rofl
theres nothing wrong with it, its natural for a team to try to get as many good players as they can.
her obnoxiously righteous attitude just gets a tad bit annoying once in a while.
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On December 31 2007 05:55 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2007 04:28 IdrA wrote:On December 30 2007 07:06 Ilvy wrote:
I have nothing against your team since the ppl in it change as fast as the weather in april and i won´t judge ppl by clantag get off your high horse. at the height of it's popularity ToT was stealing the best gamers from every other clan and killing competition in the community. at least pay teams like xlo and mym are bringing more of a pro-gaming, competitive attitude to the scene, instead of just stealing all of the best gamers because they can. Yeah thank god we have xlo and mym to save this poor community from the evil tot empire rofl
actually it makes things boring because they go to TOT and then go inactive or get caught hacking
....
=[
no evil empire, just makes clanleagues and such stupid.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
sadist:
Listen Mr.inactive-has-no-right-to-comment-on-joining-a-team-and-going-inactive:
We had ONE guy "join ToT and get caught hacking" and he hacked prior to ToT but was found shortly after wearing the tag.
As for inactivety.. aye.. guys tend to go inactive after joining ToT. But characterizing ToT as some giant conglomerate that destroyed clan leagues and has all these hackers / inactives on the roster is stupid and wrong. I honestly dont think you mean what you said. But for clarity sakes I would like to point out your momentary lapse into retardation
We have 9 or so active players. If that comprises the entire community you have a greater place to lay blame then a non sponsored team that merely ASKED (not stole you fucking morons, we dont have a slave trade or MONEY TO BUY PLAYERS) players to join the team. If we have a reputation and family mentality that is really attractive to players it is a GOOD thing not a bad thing.
IdrA:
Ilvy's "attitude" as you put it does not exist here. She is pointing out a lot of things (I wasnt going to say this greg but you are kinda being insanely hypocritical here...) that xLo is commonly associated with which, YOU yourself often have said/do say when with your Media friends (of which I am often a part of).
Nobody regards xLo as some kind of respectful and amazingly manner team. They ARE amazingly skilled and a great team for the community however. So if Ilvy points out her disguist in short quip posts that dont involve gargantuan flames and capslock I think we can all understand her opinion isnt exactly "new" or unique to her (as I pointed out, you often say things about xLo as well).
Also you were previously banned from TL.net iirc for over-the-top flaming of Ilvy? I could be wrong. But probably should take that into consideration. You have some odd hatred for the only 40+ woman to dabble in bw... common. Be a gent or something like that.
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she does not deserve respect, she tends to be obnoxious and bitchy and her opinion is meaningless seeing as she will defend anything shes part of to the death, right or wrong. also that ban was unfair, we were both told to stop arguing, she responded again and then i responded to her response and got banned.
im aware xlo is not a family or a group of friends, it is not designed to be. neither is mym, or any of the other sponsored teams. they are designed to be competitive entities, their sole purpose is getting the best players possible and using them to win competitions.
and tot behaved the exact same way, only it bought players with a big name tag instead of money(old tot when they were sapping iD and whoever else of all the good players)
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
No wai?
Greg common. The crap about xlo paying blah blah, WE KNOW. That isnt what is being discussed here. I never said xlo lacks a family atmosphere, but rather ToT offers it and its attractive. And I love how xlo,mym recruiting players with money is a "design" but when ToT snatches defenseless gamers from the soft arms of their mothers with our sinister offers of famous clan tags and a family atmosphere we are "sapping" or in Sadist's words: "stealing." Rofl
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On December 31 2007 07:16 IdrA wrote:
she does not deserve respect, she tends to be obnoxious and bitchy and her opinion is meaningless seeing as she will defend anything shes part of to the death, right or wrong. also that ban was unfair, we were both told to stop arguing, she responded again and then i responded to her response and got banned.
No way dude Ilvy and I have been on the WGT admin team together for almost 4 years now (typing that made me feel older instantly) and I have argued with her on whatever I can and she's very compromising. She rarely puts on the 'I'm a rock you ain't movin me or my opinion ya little bitch' gloves while shes typing. You need to remember she doesn't have the best English, so her words tend to be short, that's not her personality.
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On December 31 2007 07:16 IdrA wrote:
she does not deserve respect, she tends to be obnoxious and bitchy and her opinion is meaningless seeing as she will defend anything shes part of to the death, right or wrong. also that ban was unfair, we were both told to stop arguing, she responded again and then i responded to her response and got banned.
im aware xlo is not a family or a group of friends, it is not designed to be. neither is mym, or any of the other sponsored teams. they are designed to be competitive entities, their sole purpose is getting the best players possible and using them to win competitions.
and tot behaved the exact same way, only it bought players with a big name tag instead of money(old tot when they were sapping iD and whoever else of all the good players)
Haha Idra nice , yes i tend to defend what i like, means WGT with his admins, this i smy job since i am there since beginning and my teams , that have been 2. Beside of that i repsect MYM a lot even with all the troubles they had since Mercy and Army are heavy respected Heads of the clan and Archi was with me in pG so we are able to be friends even if we are in different teams ^^. It is all about respect to the team and your player not about buying and selling souls. Btw. you did same, before you cried for Skew, now after you left him you do for Bartar.
About beeing professional team, its a old game, nonkorean teams won´t earn tousands of dollars, we do not play in korean leagues. So if you need the 50 bugs be happy but do not make a big deal out of it
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wait
you respect mym, but not xlo? mym went out and bought 7-8 players, paid them a bunch of money and STILL couldnt get them to show up to clanwars, and then went out and bought an entire team from another sponsor to see if they could win with that. ya theres a whole shitload of respect in there.
btw, youve been part of an english speaking community for god knows how long, it might help to learn the language
i dont even know what Btw. you did same, before you cried for Skew, now after you left him you do for Bartar. is supposed to mean
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On December 31 2007 07:06 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
We had ONE guy "join ToT and get caught hacking" and he hacked prior to ToT but was found shortly after wearing the tag.
.
*coughs* Trek too.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Trek was 4 years ago and he didnt hack right after joining. But you are right, I guess the same can go for Trek. Point is its not fair to describe ToT in such a narrow way... clearly it isnt the case for a team as old/respected as ToT.
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On December 31 2007 06:05 IntoTheWow wrote:
I agree with BroOd in every post.
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The point of the thread has been so lost.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
xLo should be able to change players as well, if not just get the win. If anyone can't see this they are a mother fucking idiot.
Where do these dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb mother fucking moderators always come from? Just give me final say on all decisions in every tournament but don't make me do any work and the BW community will be a happy place.
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On December 31 2007 07:06 {88}iNcontroL wrote:sadist: Listen Mr.inactive-has-no-right-to-comment-on-joining-a-team-and-going-inactive: We had ONE guy "join ToT and get caught hacking" and he hacked prior to ToT but was found shortly after wearing the tag. As for inactivety.. aye.. guys tend to go inactive after joining ToT. But characterizing ToT as some giant conglomerate that destroyed clan leagues and has all these hackers / inactives on the roster is stupid and wrong. I honestly dont think you mean what you said. But for clarity sakes I would like to point out your momentary lapse into retardation We have 9 or so active players. If that comprises the entire community you have a greater place to lay blame then a non sponsored team that merely ASKED (not stole you fucking morons, we dont have a slave trade or MONEY TO BUY PLAYERS) players to join the team. If we have a reputation and family mentality that is really attractive to players it is a GOOD thing not a bad thing. IdrA: Ilvy's "attitude" as you put it does not exist here. She is pointing out a lot of things (I wasnt going to say this greg but you are kinda being insanely hypocritical here...) that xLo is commonly associated with which, YOU yourself often have said/do say when with your Media friends (of which I am often a part of). Nobody regards xLo as some kind of respectful and amazingly manner team. They ARE amazingly skilled and a great team for the community however. So if Ilvy points out her disguist in short quip posts that dont involve gargantuan flames and capslock I think we can all understand her opinion isnt exactly "new" or unique to her (as I pointed out, you often say things about xLo as well). Also you were previously banned from TL.net iirc for over-the-top flaming of Ilvy? I could be wrong. But probably should take that into consideration. You have some odd hatred for the only 40+ woman to dabble in bw... common. Be a gent or something like that.
I have no problem with players going inactive,
But its not like people join ToT and get better, most join and get stagnant and stop playing.
TOT is no different than any of these "money" teams, sure you guys might be more friendly with each other but as idra said before, you guys have the tag, the money teams have money, you do the same things.
edit: and BTW iivy or llvy whatever the hell the ID is did make a little remark about xLo being a money team, and showed obvious bias toward tot which is hyopcritical since idra and I have already pointed out they operate the same way.
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On December 31 2007 13:01 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Trek was 4 years ago and he didnt hack right after joining. But you are right, I guess the same can go for Trek. Point is its not fair to describe ToT in such a narrow way... clearly it isnt the case for a team as old/respected as ToT.
trek
selector
haypro
god knows how many inactives
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Players do get better. I speak from personal experience
Anyways sadist, no point arguing. You are pretty blind if you think a tag is the same as paying a player to leave a team and play for them as long as they get a monthly check. But as you do in fact think this is the same that is your opinion, and you are not alone so perhaps it is I that is wrong.. oh well. All I know is ToT fluctuates greatly in the public eye from situation to situation. We are either the golden child beloved and touched by Midas or we are the sinister corporate monster that soaks up all worth of bw and hoards it away on dusty shelves where some escape via hacks. We are neither. But imo, we certainly deserve respect. Much like when CDS, 88 or some of these other clans die... we realize their contribution through longevity and at least an attempt at adhering to some kind of decent moral code. Hopefully people like IdrA and Sadist will realize ToT is FAR greater than the comments we are experiencing in this thread.
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wasnt commenting on quality, like i said before i dont think theres anything wrong with it. its just that its hypocritical to mock xlo for buying players. tot did the same thing when there wasnt money in the scene. you used your big name to 'buy' players from other teams.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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On December 31 2007 14:17 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2007 13:01 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Trek was 4 years ago and he didnt hack right after joining. But you are right, I guess the same can go for Trek. Point is its not fair to describe ToT in such a narrow way... clearly it isnt the case for a team as old/respected as ToT. trek selector haypro god knows how many inactives Don't forget hullah
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
yeah ToT is just an unbreakable family thats why tot incontrol was trying so hard today on bnet to get test games to join InteR
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EPT
