|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 27 2007 12:09 tonight wrote:
Control, if you were on the outside looking in I don't believe you'd say, "Yeah, ToT shouldn't be penelized and they should get to replace there player ALONG with xLo not getting to do that." If you cannot see the huge disadvantage in that you are arrogant beyond belief. Regardless of hypro winning "legitly" he did, infact, cheat and that is not questioned. Anyone else in anyother team would be getting flamed, matches reversed, and having their team punished. I'm not saying it's ToT's fault, but it deffinitly isn't right.
You misused arrogant.
If I was on the outside I would have a different opinion, you are right. Refer to the second portion of my post where I lay out that we _all_ have biases. You identified one of mine!
Lets not talk about disadvantages. It was disadvantageous to ToT that Haypro made a single mistake BEFORE joining ToT one month ago that was ONLY NOW brought up. If haypro was some infamous hacker and this method proved that he was hacking in various games and not just a single instance I would be of the mind that ToT deserves to lose the match. Being as it is, I think special conditions are necessary. xLo should not be rewarded for Haypro's mistake. They are already rewarded in the sense that Signal could have played another bo5 against a weaker opponent and had the chance to win a series he had already lost (CLEANLY).
Anyone else want to comment on my bias or favoritism can go ahead and consider it "posted." I know I am biased, I know I favor ToT. Now that that is aside consider my post anyways. If you think Haypro is comparable to a Hungtran, Dino or some of these other hackers you are horribly wrong. That is, until more replays are found of Haypro. And nobody even whispered that he was a potential hacker. He is a very clean player with a very tiny brain evidently.
|
I agree xLo should not be rewarded, but neither should ToT in the sense that they would already know who they would be playing and can set something up accordingly. In all honesty I believe the match should just be reversed and be made a 3-0 for Signal on W.O. I say this as a complete unbiased bystander;)
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Its funny you guys keep saying ToT has this huge advantage of knowing the opponent! I can promise you that NONE of the non polish ToT members even knows Signals race. I can also promise you that ANY of the players that would have replaced Haypro would have been an easier opponent for Signal than Haypro. Haypro's best mu is ZvT. He is one of the best T killers in the non korean world atm given Testie retired, Draco is fairly inactive and Sen is racially confused atm/inactive. Signal would have most likely faced Gosia or Me/Squall. Sure we fancy ourselves as good Z's... but we are definately not going to claim to be better than Haypro.
Anyways, ToT is not being rewarded at all. We are being punished (understandably lightly btw) for the individual mistake of a non ToT member 1 month ago who happened to become a ToT member after winning the biggest euro lan. Said player than WON 3-0 CLEANLY and is being punished for something that happened a month ago. xLo had the chance to breath new life, but that breath wasnt fluffy enough for them so they stupidly chose to remain defeated.
[edit] I just realized the horrible irony in the first part of my post.. so non of the non polish/non ME ToTs 
eheh
|
On December 27 2007 12:34 tonight wrote:
I agree xLo should not be rewarded, but neither should ToT in the sense that they would already know who they would be playing and can set something up accordingly. In all honesty I believe the match should just be reversed and be made a 3-0 for Signal on W.O. I say this as a complete unbiased bystander;)
But how would that be fair for tot? Haypro never hacked when playing for tot so why should he have his scored reversed?
IMO it should be a regame with players that were present at the CW. Or, if both teams agree, it can be a regame between 2 players that were not present. This is how i see it being most fair for both of the teams
|
8748 Posts
Geoff we don't all have biases when we're just picking what kind of "justice system" the BW community should use. Should we judge hackers/cheaters on a case-by-case basis or would it be better to just give proven hackers 0 credibility and not hear their "justification" at all? I think most people that are against Emerald's decision aren't considering anything specific about Haypro at all and they're not biased pro-xLo or anti-ToT or anti-Haypro or anti-Emerald or anything. They simply believe that when a hacker is caught even once, it's a no-brainer to forfeit his recent matches. If you believe in a "soft" system where you examine the person and his story and the context and then adjust the punishment, then surely bias comes into play as you say. But I don't think the community can handle a system like that and a hard system with zero tolerance is the best bet.
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
If the method for said hacking was only revealed recently why reverse games we KNOW he wasnt hacking in? Since all of Haypro's replays in the last several months have turned up only 1 incident why reverse games we KNOW he played legitly? Especially since its not like its "hit or miss" its completely known that he only did it in one game a month ago. Its a no brainer to let legit games count. Overturning recent games was the policy of the past because hack detection was not 100% and hackers have never claimed it was an accident and actually had evidence back it up (as Haypro has had). This hack detection is 100%. None of these hackers knew to turn off the auto mine function. When they were caught NUMEROUS replays displayed them hacking, why is it only Haypro has a single replay with a hack on and it was played 1 month before the reality existed that the hack could be detected? All this begs for special circumstances. So determining the justice parameter for this asks for biases. People claiming to have none when they are addressing a unique situation on the fly is insane, that was my point.
|
On December 27 2007 12:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
He is one of the best T killers in the non korean world atm given Testie retired, Draco is fairly inactive and Sen is racially confused atm/inactive. Signal would have most likely faced Gosia or Me/Squall.
not gonna go into the rest of the argument but, having played all of you, gosia at the least is definitely way better zvt than haypro.
|
It's just sad when one of the good guys gets fucked over cuz of the zero tolerance system.
|
read pages 4/5, he is not a good guy. it might have been a one time thing but it was not an accident, as he claimed
|
I don't even want to get into that again. I already know all the facts that's being displayed on page 4/5. There's no one in the swedish community that's ever been so humble and hack free. Saddens me that he has to take huge amounts of crap from people that know shit.
Anyways Bartar is a whining bitch, I've seen nothing but huge ass posts as soon as he loses something big. It's like he's bound to twist and turn shit for 2 weeks until he lets it go and takes the loss. Last time which was just today where he faked a printscreen just to get a win over us in BWCL Cup. Nice going Bartar!
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 27 2007 12:59 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2007 12:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
He is one of the best T killers in the non korean world atm given Testie retired, Draco is fairly inactive and Sen is racially confused atm/inactive. Signal would have most likely faced Gosia or Me/Squall. not gonna go into the rest of the argument but, having played all of you, gosia at the least is definitely way better zvt than haypro.
Knowing media logic this means you beat gosia and lost to haypro Something I happen to know! Haypro is definately better ZvT sorry to say. Gosia is very good however, and would most likely roll Signal.. but anyone in ToT would. Haypro just did it 3-0 and easily.
Have the replays from Qcup been released? If hayder hacked in them this debate is mute. I think I read that he didnt though... but anyways the reps would be nice Please release!
|
Osaka27114 Posts
On December 27 2007 11:55 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2007 09:21 Manifesto7 wrote:On December 26 2007 23:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:
what the hell. i gotta say i completely agree with bartar here.
when haypro is caught cheating in this tournament every game he has played should be reversed. obviously this might not be possible in every single instance (e.g you cannot reverse a game he played in the early rounds of the tournament affecting what teams got to play later) but wherever it is possible, this is what should be done. if, you instead, choose to replay any match haypro played in, (which is a bit nicer towards tot, and in light of the slight ambiguity regarding haypro's hacking, perhaps even more fair. (although then again this would set the precedent of rewarding a hacker and a hacker's team for denying having intentionally hacked.. ) ) then you should obviously allow both teams to replace their players.. this just screams of biased admin-work. I don't even understand the justification for stating that tot can replace their player but xlo cannot.. it just makes no sense, other than well, the admin wanting tot to emerge victorious.. This sums it up perfectly. I am actually astounded that there is debate about this. Emerald showed terrible bias in his explanation, and no matter what anyone's personal opinion of Bartar is (I dont know him at all) it seems obvious that ToT is getting the benefit of some shitty admin work. Yet another reason to not follow the foreign scene. Yup because horrible admin work NEVER happens in the professional korean scene... oh no. Never.
You are a moron if you think the mismanagement that happens in almost all foreign tournaments is at all comparable to what happens in Korea. Im not reading any more of your posts in this thread because it will simply be blind defense of tot and arguments that detract from the real issue. The problem is simple, and drone summed it up perfectly. the end.
|
haypros zvt isnt particularly good. the match he beat me a 9 pool and early 3 hat lurk ling gave him a huge advantage, watch our games from ggsl or the other few times we played. he has mediocre at best macro, no sense of when to exp or tech, and mondragon himself said haypro blows with defilers.
gosia has very good macro in general, which is more than enough vs any foreign terran.
and, once again, it doesnt matter if he didnt have autosplit on in the rest of the games. for all we know the vast majority of people using oblivion never had it on because its really not a very useful feature, and only the idiots who used every single function on the hack got caught. maybe haypro didnt usually use autosplit but had it on accidentally vs strelok, who knows. the whole point is he blew his credibility, he obviously has the hack and is willing to use it in competitive games, so you cannot assume he was clean in the others.
you're right, the situation does call for special circumstances because it does seem likely that it was a one time thing, that is why he shouldnt receive a forfeit, as he theoretically should according to the rules of qcup, wgt, bwcl, iccup, etc.
also, your argument that knowing signal would be our player is not a big advantage for tot is irrelevant. for all you know your next best player (lets say its gosia) would be the overall best choice, but absolutely cannot beat signal (for whatever reason) and so, given knowledge of our player, you play instead and win easily. obviously just hypothetical, but the point is still valid.
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
kinda, the hypothetical is false and doesnt apply to ToT as I said, any ToT will and would beat Signal. Hes bad  He HAD to play cause no other xLo's showed beyond the other 4.
Manifesto7: My defense wasnt "blind." As people are arguing it. But you'd be a moron to actually think its "blind."
Korean tourneys dont have as many fuckups because they are televised and have hundreds of thousands of dollars in them. But guess what we can compare it to? West tourneys. And guess what has 10x MORE fuckups in each tourney than non korean ones? You guessed it, korean west tourneys. As it has been stated before koreans have a love affair with abusing/hacking/name switching that actually goes beyond non koreans. The language barrier just seperates most of us from knowing half the extent of it.
Anyways, I think you should probably back off. You admit you are about as detached from the non korean scene as is possible. Your only reference is to the korean professional circuit which is for the most part, completely different from the non korean unprofessional scene.
And IdrA we can agree to disagree I guess. I just have lots more experience with both of them so I would ask you consider that, not that you would (Most likely). And yes, by experience I mean ZvT (observation/replay etc).
|
Kind of a cheap shot at signal saying any ToT could "roll" him. I'm faily confident he could take games off a good number of you. Maybe even take a series. Really though, we shouldn't be arguing among eachother this is really Emerald's fault for the faulty admin job.
|
Iraq1230 Posts
ToT shouldnt be blamed for mistake I did when I played in a different clan. I do regret that I never re'd that game vs Strelok. What I did was stupid and its understandable that lots of u think that Im lying when Im saying its a one-time mistake.
I had the hack on in the game vs Strelok yes, but I never maphacked in that game and not in any game before or after that.
My game vs signal should be replayed but Bartar said no and forfeited, and then he started making all those forumthread on various sites.
|
|
|
Geoff, the funny thing is that probably 90% of the tl.net members would like to see ToT win that finals. Bartar doesn't exactly have a good reputation for obvious reasons, while ToT is known as a very mannered clan. But this shouldn't affect an admin's decision. Emerald's decision was obviously favoring ToT by far. Nobody knows if haypro hacked in that finals. I believe that it was a one time thing, but we just don't know. He could have easily maphacked with oblivion, the auto-mining thing turned off, or he could have dled some other maphack and used that. We just don't know. It wouldn't be fair to give a 3-0 WO to Signal, because a) Haypro wasn't in ToT when he used Oblivion and b) There is only one game (+ the 15 seconds one) where we know he hacked. Still, by giving ToT the opportunity to choose whichever player you got in your lineup vs a known opponent, this is an auto-win. Even if it wasn't Signal who had to play (I'm really sorry for this guy btw, he's being bashed on even moreso than haypro), but let's just say Idra, you could easily just let your best player in that mu play and have a very decent chance of winning it.
I know this isn't ToT's fault at all and I think we can all agree on that, but I'm sure ToT would have a decent chance of winning the remaining match anyway regardless which xLo plays. Idra and Lx are amazing players, but you guys have amazing players left as well.
|
At last, iNcontroL spoke. I was waiting 3 days for him to comment something (holidays i guess) and i must admit when he started posting he was quite inspired. But it was exactly the kind of reply i wanted. From all what you said Geoff i will not bother at this point to confront them one by one and prove that you are trying to cover ToT, which is total understandable since you are kinda the soul of team, while bming me and my team. At this stage i will only comment on something you said on your very first post:
"I just think ToT does deserve some leniency. Which bothers a lot of you to no end because you see it as favoritism. I see it as deserved credit. ToT has been around for a very long time. Always trying its best to do the right thing and representing the foreign community as a manner/legit/skilled clan that can compete with the world."
When i read that i didn't know if i should laugh or cry. Because from my own experince ( and i REPEAT from my own) that was a very "unlucky" statement from you. And i will explain myself by what i posted on a related gg.net thread when ToT)Raudo( provoked me. I will not post the link, i will copy/paste the whole damn thing because it seems some ppl here have missed it:
"#126 Raudo - i just returned from football league, im hell tired, i have work to do for team, wgtcl etc. but because you provoked me i will be happy to do some research and remind you and the community some things. If you want to speak about shits, sure lets talk about shits! :
1. BOSS defeats ToT 4-0 in FBL1 final. There are no manner problems at all and even Mondragon comes at our site after and posts "gg". I'm happy we won but not a single time i thought we are a better team or the new ToT. We had simply reached the top very quickly and it was time to work for staying there. After this result, i thought Mondragon would be happy to play some friendly cws vs us. But every time i asked he refused. The reason was that he did not like our team, he considered it like a no team, just a bunch of players coming in cws. Yea sure, sataNik/shaman/strelok/ra was not a team ;o. Anyway, i could undertand him if he was hurt for loosing FBL or afraid to lose again. But it damn hurts not to be considered exigent ;o
2. December 2nd 2006, ToT vs BOSS for BWCL Premier Season 2:
Sen vs White-Ra 1-2
Testie vs satanik 2-0
Mondragon vs Shaman 2-1
Xiaozi vs Mistrzzz 1-2
SquaLL vs Strelok 0-2
Mondragon/Testie vs White-Ra/Raiser 2-0
Xiaozi/LJT vs Raiser/Strelok 2-1
As you can see we lost 2-5. What's the catch here? We could have won 4-3 if it was not for Mondragon's tricks. I will explain:
White-ra is tied 1-1 with Sen and he gets to pick map. Mondragon is obsing them. Ra chooses to pick 8.15 which he had prepared and has clear advantage over Sen. But Mondragon tells him: "Come on, be a man and don't pick an ubalanced map". And Ra who was fan of Mondragon like all players were, agrees, picks other map and looses. I remeber him telling me after that he would sure win if it was 8.15 and how mad i was with him for changing ;o
Then to the 2v2s. Our 2v2 teams at that time were Strelok/Ra and Drafi/Raiser. Very good teams, expecially Ra/Strelok were undefeated everywhere. But Drafi was late registered at site and Mondragon enforced me to change teams or forfeit. Who would have thought it that the original and untouchable ToT was actually afraid of loosing vs a new team?;o I had no other choice, he was calling admins etc. and i made teams that had never before played together ;o. I'm convinced that at least one of the original teams would have owned. Is it certain that we would have won if it was not for Mondragon's bm? No, we cant be sure but i remeber how much robbed i was feeling after the cw...
3. March 18th 2007, ToT vs xLo for FBL Season 2 :
iNcontroL Strelok 0-1
Xiaozi Strelok 0-1
Hullah Strelok 1-0
Hullah Pj 1-0
Hullah Legend 1-0
Hullah White-Ra 1-0
Hullah wins all 4 super gamers mostly with rush tactics and luck in maps they picked.
http://sc.gosugamers.net/gosubet/1 1520/50
#60 phaib @ 2007-03-18 18:48:40
How has Hullah become that gosu? I'm really impressed
#67 xLo.Bartar @ 2007-03-18 18:55:51
ggs ToT.
#69 ToT)iNcontroL( @ 2007-03-18 18:58:02
very good manner by xlo. gg's
I feel you guys will come in second (at least) if not a playoffs or something. GL vs mym
What's the catch here? Hullah was caught hacking by Mondragon some months ago;o Have you seen him online lately?;o Why was not this ever became publick? Btw iNcontroL, unfortunately in the playoffs we were eliminated by Hungtran:
tt1 < pj r-point
hungtran > pj longinus
hungtran > beckham rush hour
hungtran vs legend longinus
Hullah or Hungtran were hacking in these games or started hacking later? We will never know. But what we know is that Strelok/Pj/Legend/Ra/Beckham lost a bo1 vs them, expecially in maps they chose ;o give me a break...
4. September 1st 2007, ToT vs xLo for ICCupCL Season 1:
xLo won
xLo.DinOt vs ToT)XiaOzI( 2-1
xLo.Fenix vs ToT)ZelotITO( 2-0
xLo.Strelok vs ToT)sQuall( 2-0
xLo.Shaman vs ToT)controL( 1-2
xLo.loid / xLo.MarCinu vs ToT)LJT( / ToT)XiaOzI( 1-2
The catch? Mondragon was in wcg. iNcontrol admined the match and there were no manner problems at all.
So, you see Raudo that i do think and my memory is pretty good. History wrote that we lost vs ToT, not wether we deserved to lose. I didn't cry, i just moved on. But from my own experience this whole thing about the "holy ToT" is shit. And im free to say it since all the above are true. If Mondragon thinks that im lieing at something let him come here and respond instead of putting puppets to speak for him. Have you ever seen him to post anything?"
So at this point Geoff i only need a simple answer from you. All this was the "right thing" by your "holy" ToT? Did or did not Mondragon caught Hullah hacking? And if hungtran and Hullah were indeed hacking (which is the most probable) back from FBL2 time who will give us our money back?
Now, if you will continue to try defending your "manner,legit" team which is just shit in my opinion (because i repeat, this is just what i got from interacting with it), i will answer to your opinions one by one just like i answered to Emerald here:
http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread/188440/40
reply #50
ps. Im fucking tempted to answer to your " Signal should not be replaced by one of the 40 other xLo members who didnt/couldnt (care) make the CW on time. " and your obvious dislike for my team but for now i will save it...
|
Maybe haypro isnt better than gosia at zvt but wjhat haypro aims mostly for is timings, saying that he doesnt know when to exp or tech is like saying that savior doesnt know it either since haypro has studied savior ever since savior arised as a maestro, haypro is a replay generation guy. :p
haypro has timings and clockworks for every event that happens in the game , maybe he doesnt always think outside the box but he did at dreamhack and that made him win, dont know why u hate him so much anyways idra , dont become testie please...it was already anoying enough at his time
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
