EPTxLo forfeits Qcup final - Page 3
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Insane
United States4991 Posts
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
well basicly all things have been said, you are just biased and make a decision that makes no sense... too bad... | ||
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Trust
Germany107 Posts
this time i think the situation is different, i think emerald had 2 options - on the one hand he could give a w.o. to xlo and nobody could complain about it - on the other hand he still believes that haypro was clean, therefor a rematch would be o.k, and i also agree that signal has to play. but tot should also just use players which where avaiable at the clanwar time. i can not see a reason why tot should get the advantage to pick the player they want for the match while xlo cannot. both teams should use a player who was avaiable at the original clanwar. but i still dont like the way bartar trys to change the decision. as u can see he states misleading facts (idra 5minutes 2late etc) which can lead to wrong interpretations. also i am not sure wether forfeiting was the right way because an admin decision is still an decision u have to follow - there will always be decisions a clan doesnt agree with and to forfeit every time will not bring any good. just my 2 cents | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
i dont know if 25 is accurate cuz i dont know when the cw officially started (i came on as soon as i got home), but emerald is exaggerating to try to make himself look better. doing the same thing he accuses bartar of doing. | ||
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Bartar
Greece83 Posts
http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread/188440/40 | ||
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chiflutz
Romania1025 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
On December 24 2007 07:17 IdrA wrote: i think its pretty obvious that both teams should get to replace their players, given that theyre not gonna forfeit haypro. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
2) If a team fails to appear in time, technical loss. THAT EASY, and nothing would've happened. You see, Emerald, once you disregard the rules even for the sake of human feelings (we're 5 minutes late, may we, PLZ PLZ PLZ), you're being dragged into an avalanche of having to make bad decisions. If xLo didn't want to start the CW in time, well FUCK THEM, after all, it's them who want the money. While the issue is quite controversial, we have two cases of post-factum decisions: 1) ToT being penalized for their player hacking long after it actually happened. In fact, if haypro didn't hack in the GF, the sole decision to replay his games is questionable. Why not replay ALL games involving Haypro then, starting from 2005, for example? But here comes penalty number one - ToT has to throw the dice at the finals again because their player was caught hacking. That issue is quite apparent. But there is another issue. 2) xLo being penalized for disregarding tourney rules and being late for the CW. They didn't provide their desired lineup for the first time, and, since they should've got a technical loss, shouldn't be allowed to send a replacement now. Both decisions are bad. Both are essentially re-decision (changing decisions made right away after the stuff happened). But they both have been done, and I must admit xLo behaved extremely childishly in the whole story. Let it be this way, if they don't want to take another chance, let them. It's not like I'm fond of the situation, but it's fair from a certain standpoint. + Show Spoiler + I still remember that Strelok's TvT on WGT where he clearly lost but lifted his buildings and begged for draw despite PGT handling such situations as non-draw. Every single time I hear of xLo, I hear of bad manner or abuse. Coincidence? | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
also if you read emerald's ruling, he says that the reason xlo cannot replace signal is that he wont allow us to use any players who were not present at the tiem of the clan war. however he is allowing tot to use any player from their lineup, regardless of whether or not they were present at the time of the clanwar. it all boils down to the fact that emerald thinks tot deserves to win the clanwar, and is going out of his way to make sure they do. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
they used a hacker, this is a punishment. theyre getting off easy in being allowed a regame at all. when a hacker is caught in any league, including qpad (part a section 2 of their rules) every match they played is automatically forfeited. | ||
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DirtyBirD
United States239 Posts
On December 24 2007 05:45 NonY[rC] wrote: ToT gains an advantage by getting to pick their player with the knowledge of who his opponent will be. Honestly I think it's the league's lack of preparation that is most to blame. If they required each team to list back-up players in case of a replacement, then there would have been no problem. This is the best explanation/view on this that I've seen. I'm surprised no one has quoted this yet. In all honesty, it is unfair that ToT gets to pick a player with the knowledge of who their opponent is going to be. Why should xLo have to sit back and watch as ToT possibly picks a player who's going to be Signals worst MU? It would only be fair that both teams submitted a new player to Emerald and have them announced at the same time. | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
btw section A + 2 says, "2 - A team can be removed from the league by admins by any of these reasons. - Team cheats or abuses. (Single players fault will result in punishment for the whole team that the represents.)" yet again, i didnt see haypro "cheating" (its obsurd to call it that anyways) in tot, he was in team-BW and it doesnt say what the exact punishment is. so section 2 doesnt really cover this particular incident very well, and the punishment given already could very well be sufficient one if the admin(s) says so with the reversing of game(s) which they did eventho it was pretty clear that haypro didnt hack in those games. Section C + 4 covers the cheating alittle more tho as it doesnt give the admin much room for deciding himself what punishment to give rather a strict one. "4 - Cheating gets the players whole team instantly removed from the league. Using non-allowed hacks/tweaks and account sharing is regarded as cheating. Cheating might result in team to be added to the blacklist." Again it doesnt really point out if BW, ToT or both should be banned ? a really weird rule tho imo sidetopiced cause as stated above its not the whole teams fault that someone cheats, but the rule is there and well maybe it was written in haste or smnth. So..! Imo Idra you should stop using the "tot was rewarded for hacking lolololz" and "hacker hacker" all the time cause u know that ToT actually won fair and square and saying that haypro could have hacked in the final aswell is just like saying I a caught hacker could have hacked in the final aswell...actually anybody could have hacked in the final aswell. So while i agree that um maybe not the most fair decision was made i would have understood it aswell if it was the other way around and i doubt you would have said it was the wrong decision then, i dont agree on that ToT was rewarded ... how is from a 3-2 win to a 2-2 tie and a regame rewarding ? Lastly i couldnt actually read anywhere where it says that a player caught hacking anytime should have his games reversed, unless its meant as a standard rule for all leagues...eventho i agree on that it is probaly the best and safest thing to do, cause yes eventho some ppl who obviously hate haypro or hate the idea of hackers would never consider the possibility of haypro being innocent of the maphacking you should very much actually do consider it atleast alittle :p hmm i type too much | ||
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Dknight
United States5225 Posts
I could see ToT having to use one of the members who was at the match play but not anyone on their roster. Signal would have played the match regardless if ToT sent Haypro, Zelotito, Gosia, or whoever out there. | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
We all know by now that Idra couldnt come for xlo :p and signal obviously was the best player available there atm, so since xlo had their best player available written in stone already it would be the choice to either trust mondragons honesty about who really was available for tot or just let tot chose from whomever is left in the squad, dont see any other options left if its to follow the "players available" rule. Well thats how i would see it  | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
yet again, i didnt see haypro "cheating" (its obsurd to call it that anyways) in tot, he was in team-BW and it doesnt say what the exact punishment is. so section 2 doesnt really cover this particular incident very well, and the punishment given already could very well be sufficient one if the admin(s) says so with the reversing of game(s) which they did eventho it was pretty clear that haypro didnt hack in those games. do you think they go through and check every single game when they reverse a hacker's results in clan league? no, they dont. each game is not forfeited because the person cheated in every single one. the games are forfeited because 99% of the time there is no way to tell if the person is hacking or not and by hacking and getting caught at least once they lose the benefit of the doubt. haypro proved he had the hack on his comp. he proved he used it to gain an advantage in a competitive game, and then he lied about that. because of that none of his results can be trusted. i agree with you, theres a good chance he wasnt hacking in the finals. theres a decent chance that game vs strelok really was a one time thing. but there is no way to know, and the fact that he has demonstrated himself willing to cheat invalidates everything. and you should stop saying its 'pretty clear' he wasnt cheating. how long did you get away with it before you got caught? its not always obvious when someones hacking. and if he was using some of the more subtle oblivion features theres almost no way to tell. Lastly i couldnt actually read anywhere where it says that a player caught hacking anytime should have his games reversed, unless its meant as a standard rule for all leagues...eventho i agree on that it is probaly the best and safest thing to do, cause yes eventho some ppl who obviously hate haypro or hate the idea of hackers would never consider the possibility of haypro being innocent of the maphacking you should very much actually do consider it atleast alittle well, that is the standard rule. wgtcl does it, bwcl does it, i think iccupcl does it. but xlo isnt even asking for that. all we want is a fair rematch. | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
the things that u quoted from me, Idra, wasnt really the ones i put much energy into since its impossible for anyone but haypro to know 100% if he hacked or not  but now that u mention it, yes alot of ppl did probably go through almost every haypro rep that they had got and it was really simple to see which games that this hack had been used in and that would be this 1 game against strelok with the use of automining in the start, then the answer to that would be "but haypro probably turned the automining off on all other games since he was the only smart hacker and could forsee that automining would be spottable on bwchart" and then i would answer "but then he wouldnt have been so stupid to let it slip 1 game which he obviously noticed right away which he then would know would catch him along with the other hackers since he released it into a replaypackage by himself" and then we would all agree on that its 99.9% sure that haypro only accidently used it in 1 game! Also you mentioned it took a while to catch me personally, and yes when bwchart was in beta i was instantly caught with games that were about 3 months old if i remember correct cause all the reps that i had used hack in i was clicking on everything visible on the map that was interesting such as hydra den, citadels, robos etc since there was no way for me or any other players at that time to forsee that bwchart would ever be created :p same way as there was noway for haypro to forsee that bwchart would detect automining...so whilst maphack is very hard to detect for an experienced maphacker automining was not hard to detect. Anyways it wasnt really what was supposed to be discussed in this thread but i rabble on pretty good when i start typing  | ||
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linyu)wufan18
1198 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On December 25 2007 14:46 TreK[cF] wrote: the things that u quoted from me, Idra, wasnt really the ones i put much energy into since its impossible for anyone but haypro to know 100% if he hacked or not but now that u mention it, yes alot of ppl did probably go through almost every haypro rep that they had got and it was really simple to see which games that this hack had been used in and that would be this 1 game against strelok with the use of automining in the start, then the answer to that would be "but haypro probably turned the automining off on all other games since he was the only smart hacker and could forsee that automining would be spottable on bwchart" and then i would answer "but then he wouldnt have been so stupid to let it slip 1 game which he obviously noticed right away which he then would know would catch him along with the other hackers since he released it into a replaypackage by himself" and then we would all agree on that its 99.9% sure that haypro only accidently used it in 1 game! Also you mentioned it took a while to catch me personally, and yes when bwchart was in beta i was instantly caught with games that were about 3 months old if i remember correct cause all the reps that i had used hack in i was clicking on everything visible on the map that was interesting such as hydra den, citadels, robos etc since there was no way for me or any other players at that time to forsee that bwchart would ever be created :p same way as there was noway for haypro to forsee that bwchart would detect automining...so whilst maphack is very hard to detect for an experienced maphacker automining was not hard to detect. Anyways it wasnt really what was supposed to be discussed in this thread but i rabble on pretty good when i start typing well i only quoted the relevant parts. the only thing i didnt address was you talking about the rules, and since emerald obviously is ignoring the rules those dont really matter. (like you said if he did follow them part 4 would dictate both bw and tot banned without question) as for the automining yes, that uncertainty is why there should be a fair regame and not an outright forfeit. in this case it does seem more likely that it was a one time thing. however that does not change the fact that he purposefully cheated in at least one match, which again throws all of his games into question. unless you can find a way to PROVE that he didnt hack in anything else it has to be assumed that he did, since he has demonstrated that he has the hack, is willing to use it in a competitive game, and has tried to cover it up. | ||
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