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On August 06 2017 21:32 docholiday_tv wrote:
I have trouble with the goliath 2 base timing as well. Its def strong, but just keep working on it. Ive found myself able to beat it amount of the time now. The muta into hydra is the best route, just try to see it coming ahead of time so you dont find yourself unprepared.
You have to keep poking with Muta to confirm the factory count because there is this fun build which you open Rax FE -> 2 Fac Goliath -> Marine + Medic + Siege tank. You trick Zerg into going Hydra then murder them with MnM while Goliath protect your Siege Tank from Muta..
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Those games were really good 
It looked like the zerg used his mobility to great effect to force the terran back, but it just seemed like the Zerg fumbled away his third to two goliaths and lost because of that.
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On August 06 2017 23:49 KungKras wrote:Those games were really good It looked like the zerg used his mobility to great effect to force the terran back, but it just seemed like the Zerg fumbled away his third to two goliaths and lost because of that.
At that time he also split his army in half for a moment and ended up accruing too many losses in one of the engagements iirc.
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1) Mass goliath alone is bad from the Terran because then zerg can just go hydra and outscale them.
2) Mass goliath with a few tanks is good.
Assuming the Terran is good and you open with 3h muta, you want to use muta to the fullest extent to keep Terran from pushing out until you have enough hydra to surround and engage. There are a few points within this sentence that I will explain explicitly.
1) You should send a ling or two into the terran natural to see his unit composition. Always have lings in front of his base to deny scv scout leaving and to see when he's moving out. If you see a vulture, 1 sunken at the front of your base is fine to deter it.
2) Assuming you are 100% with 3h muta opening, take the fastest 3rd you can. It's often better to take the closer 3rd against mech instead of corner. With the fast 3rd gas, you can make extra mutas and swap out the lower hp ones so you can continue to harass. This also allows you to get a faster evo chamber for +1 +1 upgrades. Upgrade +1 air carapace after you make your initial mutas. While you are harassing, keep a mental note of his army size. Terran's dont push out on 2 base until theyre over 100 supply, so you have about ~10 minutes.
3) While youre harassing with muta, you want to make mass hydra. You can stay on lair tech longer, and take a 4th while you're comfortable with your army supply. Make mutas when you see your gas starting to rise over 500.
4) Prior to engagement, you want to have lots of vision of the minimap. If you don't, you most likely won't win. Your mutas can fucking fly. You need to be able to see his reinforcements and his army pathing so that you can optimize your angles and position. During engagement, you want as much surface area as possible, and target down tanks with your mutas. Try to stall until your upgrades are finished.
Mech vs zerg is pretty volatile. If you smash his army, you autowin. If you snipe his tanks before the engage, it buys you a lot of time OR it gives you a huge advantage if he decides to allin. If you lose your mutas, you are very far behind, so don't do this. Once you have 4 bases saturated you can have like 7 hatcheries sustaining hydras. Any time gas goes up, make mutas. Get hive before your +2+2 is done so that you can finish your upgrades on time.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
cc first 4-5 fact goliath as an allin seems strong. If you drone up your 3rd (10++ drones) you will die to it from my experience. start producing hydras very early on and try to flank the army. Dont think you will have time to counter attack. This happend to me a few days ago and it was really strong.
I overdroned in this game by about 5-6 drones (but still mined less than the terran), I also was forced to engage before hydra range. I think if I make 6 drones less, get a quicker hydra range, and maybe 1 less upgrade, I suppose I defeat this attack handily. Another thing I couldve done is put down 3 sunkens but then you kinda need them at both bases. It's a very tight rope to walk on. I had never faced this strategy since returning to the game, so it caught me off guard.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LiquidRet/231745Jade_21_iCCup.rep
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On August 08 2017 02:04 Liquid`Ret wrote:cc first 4-5 fact goliath as an allin seems strong. If you drone up your 3rd (10++ drones) you will die to it from my experience. start producing hydras very early on and try to flank the army. Dont think you will have time to counter attack. This happend to me a few days ago and it was really strong. I overdroned in this game by about 5-6 drones (but still mined less than the terran), I also was forced to engage before hydra range. I think if I make 6 drones less, get a quicker hydra range, and maybe 1 less upgrade, I suppose I defeat this attack handily. Another thing I couldve done is put down 3 sunkens but then you kinda need them at both bases. It's a very tight rope to walk on. I had never faced this strategy since returning to the game, so it caught me off guard. http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LiquidRet/231745Jade_21_iCCup.rep
Yup. It very much is a tight rope to walk in terms of droning. Positioning is important too, but it's tough on maps like FS with short distances and limited terrain/angles.
Hi Ret <3
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If you are losing to only goliaths,your problem is not which units you are making. It's your economy.
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My tinfoil hat is tingling, it's telling me:
Lurker + Muta → Queens (Defiler is probs better, but lol)
Effort used his mutas to snipe 1 tank, but the long range of the goliaths shut down more than that. Effort went for Queens in that game, and though, lol, Light moved in just before Spawn Broodling could charge (so the Broodlings only came in after the tanks had killed all the hydras).
But what if Effort had Lurkers? Kill vessels, kill tanks, can't machine-gun lurkers can you?
Lol IDK what I'm talking about :D
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On August 08 2017 04:12 bITt.mAN wrote:
My tinfoil hat is tingling, it's telling me:
Lurker + Muta → Queens (Defiler is probs better, but lol)
Effort used his mutas to snipe 1 tank, but the long range of the goliaths shut down more than that. Effort went for Queens in that game, and though, lol, Light moved in just before Spawn Broodling could charge (so the Broodlings only came in after the tanks had killed all the hydras).
But what if Effort had Lurkers? Kill vessels, kill tanks, can't machine-gun lurkers can you?
Lol IDK what I'm talking about :D
Goliaths fare really well against Lurkers actually. That's part of the reason why you almost never see them in late-game ZvT imo. Scan is still a thing as is target-firing. At this juncture Zerg should be heavily pressed for gas and resources in general as well. Just my take on it, not sure if I'm off-base here.
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Lurkers under swarm are always good and cost effective but late game ZvT the problems become a few things; mines, apm cost of burrowing/unburrowing and keeping them under swarm, need gas for ultras/defiler/queen/muta
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there's no way you're getting hive before the game ending attack hits
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We are talking about two different things. I believe the OP was referring to mass goliaths when there is a 2 base timing attack with ~5 factories, as opposed to just lategame mech play. Talking about queens and hivetech is fine and all, but it's not relevant when there are 40 goliaths coming at 10 minutes.
Also, lurkers are bad vs mech unless you have defiler. They cost a lot of time and gas which you could otherwise be putting into hydra or muta (or queens or ultralisks). Their dps is also low vs goliath.
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On August 08 2017 02:04 Liquid`Ret wrote:cc first 4-5 fact goliath as an allin seems strong. If you drone up your 3rd (10++ drones) you will die to it from my experience. start producing hydras very early on and try to flank the army. Dont think you will have time to counter attack. This happend to me a few days ago and it was really strong. I overdroned in this game by about 5-6 drones (but still mined less than the terran), I also was forced to engage before hydra range. I think if I make 6 drones less, get a quicker hydra range, and maybe 1 less upgrade, I suppose I defeat this attack handily. Another thing I couldve done is put down 3 sunkens but then you kinda need them at both bases. It's a very tight rope to walk on. I had never faced this strategy since returning to the game, so it caught me off guard. http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LiquidRet/231745Jade_21_iCCup.rep
I'm guessing this coupled with what others had said about opening mutas. Mutas would allow you to identify the all-in in time before you even put down a third hatchery. From there on follow Rets advice I'd say.
If I'm terran I really don't want mutas early on because it forces me to stay in my base and invest into turrets (despite goliaths, at least initially) and it also gives the zerg enough time to react to what they are seeing and adapt accordingly.
What I think is imperative is also not neglecting a third base, you cannot fight terran on even bases. So if the terran just sits, it gets tougher, because then you'd have to use mutas again to gather enough intel to decide whether you have time to squeeze out a round of drones to saturate a third and get range/armor upgrades going for your hydras, eventually even looking to take a fourth base.
Easy tells which should prompt you to squeeze in a round of drones is if you see an armory upgrading, a third CC beubg built or if the factory count stops at 4 and Terran is getting a starport (means to unlock +2 and +3 = going for a longer game).
If massgoliaths ever extend to a late game where Terran opts for a third base and +2 upgrades and so forth. I'd say it becomes a game of simply abusing the fact that Terran isn't very mobile with this type of army and that he has to move with all of his goliaths to the same place if he wants to fight efficiently. This is done by simply massexpanding all over the map, while sacking bases that Terran commits his entire army to kill. If terran commits his entire army for an expo snipe, that means you should be countering him somewhere else (i.e. his third exp or natural). Don't engage a +2 or +3 goliath army head on unless the supply is heavily in your favour or if you have hive tech and dark swarm.
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merz why havent you been streaming?
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On August 08 2017 22:43 dignitas.merz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 02:04 Liquid`Ret wrote:cc first 4-5 fact goliath as an allin seems strong. If you drone up your 3rd (10++ drones) you will die to it from my experience. start producing hydras very early on and try to flank the army. Dont think you will have time to counter attack. This happend to me a few days ago and it was really strong. I overdroned in this game by about 5-6 drones (but still mined less than the terran), I also was forced to engage before hydra range. I think if I make 6 drones less, get a quicker hydra range, and maybe 1 less upgrade, I suppose I defeat this attack handily. Another thing I couldve done is put down 3 sunkens but then you kinda need them at both bases. It's a very tight rope to walk on. I had never faced this strategy since returning to the game, so it caught me off guard. http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LiquidRet/231745Jade_21_iCCup.rep I'm guessing this coupled with what others had said about opening mutas. Mutas would allow you to identify the all-in in time before you even put down a third hatchery. From there on follow Rets advice I'd say. If I'm terran I really don't want mutas early on because it forces me to stay in my base and invest into turrets (despite goliaths, at least initially) and it also gives the zerg enough time to react to what they are seeing and adapt accordingly. What I think is imperative is also not neglecting a third base, you cannot fight terran on even bases. So if the terran just sits, it gets tougher, because then you'd have to use mutas again to gather enough intel to decide whether you have time to squeeze out a round of drones to saturate a third and get range/armor upgrades going for your hydras, eventually even looking to take a fourth base. Easy tells which should prompt you to squeeze in a round of drones is if you see an armory upgrading, a third CC beubg built or if the factory count stops at 4 and Terran is getting a starport (means to unlock +2 and +3 = going for a longer game). If massgoliaths ever extend to a late game where Terran opts for a third base and +2 upgrades and so forth. I'd say it becomes a game of simply abusing the fact that Terran isn't very mobile with this type of army and that he has to move with all of his goliaths to the same place if he wants to fight efficiently. This is done by simply massexpanding all over the map, while sacking bases that Terran commits his entire army to kill. If terran commits his entire army for an expo snipe, that means you should be countering him somewhere else (i.e. his third exp or natural). Don't engage a +2 or +3 goliath army head on unless the supply is heavily in your favour or if you have hive tech and dark swarm.
there is a hard stop to mech if the terran gets a third base just like there is to bio... once zerg has the space to get to hive, the game instantly becomes a traditional macro game because terran has no cost efficient way to bust swarm/lurkers with nydus mobility. the only strength of the goliath attack is ending the game right then and there, otherwise it doesn't have the mobility that early bio has to keep the zerg in check expansion wise. that's the point of the mutas, you won't be able to engage the mineral lines like you traditionally would but you can certainly keep the terran in the dark and kill any vultures looking for bases. furthermore, the mutas help during the engagement because they tank and the goliaths target them over the hydralisks.
edit~ with regard to your bases point, i advocate a fast 3rd (traditional 3 hatch muta timing) and an extremely fast 4th (probably 5 or 6 drones after your 3rd is placed). the terran shouldn't be able to see your drone counts so he can't commit an attack without allining, at which point your economy should be poised to pretty easily topple the attack (just be extremely careful not to overdrone, or you'll handily lose). keep scouting and denying scounting and play traditionally, kinda like zvp
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Facing 1 rax Fe into goliath timing is really hard to beat. You will need to know:
- When and how much to drone. If you drone too much and the timing attack hits you will have no units. If you drone too little you will have no army.
- What to do with your first 11 mutas (very important). If you over-commit and lose mutas you will have less to hold off the timing push
- When and where to take your third. Ideally taking the near 3rd would be better since you can reinforce faster.
- How to delay the timing push, should you counter attack or not?
Even if you make 1 mistake from the above the it can snowball and be really hard to comeback from.
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like 1 ultra or a few hydras, you're probably going lurker ling which goliaths stomp pretty hard
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On August 09 2017 12:21 Dante08 wrote:
Facing 1 rax Fe into goliath timing is really hard to beat. You will need to know:
- When and how much to drone. If you drone too much and the timing attack hits you will have no units. If you drone too little you will have no army.
- What to do with your first 11 mutas (very important). If you over-commit and lose mutas you will have less to hold off the timing push
- When and where to take your third. Ideally taking the near 3rd would be better since you can reinforce faster.
- How to delay the timing push, should you counter attack or not?
Even if you make 1 mistake from the above the it can snowball and be really hard to comeback from.
i agree with your points, but (if you're playing on fighting spirit) you should be taking the normal 3rd for the 1 ramp highground defense (the base furthest from your opponent, or the base furthest from his normal expansion pathing). the mutas point is very important, because the function of the mutas is completely different than it is when playing vs bio, you need all that you can get because it's directly proportional to how much you can safely drone.
As far as delaying the push goes, i don't think you should engage until you plan to fully commit the attack, otherwise you're just playing to the terran army's strength since zerg's early armies are weak in few numbers against mech balls. likewise, i don't like backstabbing because i have just had the mech army and either just kill my army in his base, or just kill my nat/main and then come back and kill it. in theory it might work, but pragmatically i have never been able to make it work in this scenario
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Hydras. You make only Hydras if they have only Goliaths. The key to win against mech terran who is making goliaths and tanks is to balance the correct number of hydras and mutas. General rule is that if they have lot of goliaths you make more hydras and if they have lot of tanks you make more mutas. So by this equation if terran is making only goliaths you will make only hydras. You will just obliterate them no problem. This equation only works during middlegame so you would like to just go standard ling/ultra in lategame.
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On August 02 2017 11:07 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 08:26 vileChAnCe wrote:
this can't be serious? they have like the lowest cost efficient ground dmg. like anything on the ground should trade pound for pound on the ground.. you should be really stoked if they are massing goliaths Goliaths are strong for noobs because they can attack anything, build slowly enough that they're easy to macro, and are in small enough numbers that they're easy to micro.
You just described every protoss army composition and most zerg ones.
But pretend like you didn;t know that.
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EPT
