EPTHow the fuck do I beat mass goliath - Page 2
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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Piste
6177 Posts
On August 03 2017 03:23 739 wrote: If we're talking about mass mutas vs mass goliaths - mass goliaths will win in every scenario. Yo do you even broodwar? Goliaths have massive ground to air single target damage with long range, but other than that they are slow, clumsy and quite expensive units. Since mutas are small units, goliaths will do only 50% dmg to them. Mutalisk shoots bouncing glaives up to three targets and can in mass fights they stack unlike goliaths. Their mobility plays the biggest role in actual games tho. Maybe you have seen just too many desperate lategame unupgraded muta switches vs 3-3 mech. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
unit size doesn't matter when goliaths have more range, more dps (even taking size type and splash damage into account), more hp, lower cost, etc on top of that upgrades on gols are much stronger than upgrades on mutas u can backstab the main which is difficult for T to deal with but that doesn't kill goliaths | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I'm not into theorycrafting, I'm more into what previous games showed us. I can't recall a single pro or semi-pro game in muta vs goliaths scenario where the zerg player came out with advantage but I've seen couple of game where I saw exactly the opposite effect. And yes, you're right. In theory muta with splash damage should come out on top against goliaths, because of the damage and splash BUT goliaths are : cheaper, have more range, have more health and you can micro it. | ||
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yB.TeH
Germany414 Posts
On August 03 2017 04:48 Dead9 wrote: on top of that upgrades on gols are much stronger than upgrades on mutas they are not you get +4 on goliaths it's 2 attacks so it's 2x2dmg vs small unis it's 2x1dmg which is countered by a single armor upgrade on mutalisks | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Also, muta glaive 2nd (3rd) bounce is always /3( /9), so +1 muta attack on +1goliath is: (10-2), (3.33-2), (1.11-2). Not sure how the last one is calculated though, it's some rng, but you can see the goliath upgrade is again stronger. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On August 03 2017 06:31 yB.TeH wrote: they are not you get +4 on goliaths it's 2 attacks so it's 2x2dmg vs small unis it's 2x1dmg which is countered by a single armor upgrade on mutalisks Yeah but armor upgrades wreck the glaive bounce damage. The Muta attack upgrades only give 1/3 bonus to the bounce, but the armor upgrade still subtracts a full point. So with full upgrades the muta bounces do almost nothing, and you're just left with one hit for 8 damage while the goliaths hit you for 10. Plus they have more health, more range, and only cost 50 gas. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On August 02 2017 19:12 2Pacalypse- wrote: Yeah, mass goliaths suck. Here's the VOD of that game: Sziky was also down 0-1 on upgrades vs 2-2. plus was on even bases. I dont think he would have won that regardless | ||
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
One group is talking about pro-level and no-mistake-games only - the other group is talking about 90% of the games being played where everything can happen... so none is 100% correct, aight? With relatively good, evenly matched players facing each other, goliaths have the advantage. If the game unfolds somewhat normally, if Terran knows what to do and doesn't take a big blow early, then enough well upgraded goliaths should be out in time to deal with the mutas at all points in time. Zerg can do some harrass but has to transition eventually. BUT: Writing "gols win mutas in every scenario" is just plain bull****, you have to admit that if you're not a complete ignorant or make private assumptions what 'every scenario' means (aka: you don't know what 'every' means). If Terran doesn't know what to do, takes a blow earlier, plays the early game the wrong way, mutas can beat gols. You cannot just exclude those scenarios by default as in "Idiot, we're only talking about perfect games here, self explanatory...". Gols can be overwhelmed if the Zerg uses his mobility advantage to cripple, buy time, expand. And if we're talking about lower levels or not evenly matched opponents - of course mutas can seem unbeatable even with all the gols a newb can produce. Makes me sad everytime when some smart-arse barges into such a thread and tells the guy that what he experienced could not have happened... Guy should post replay tho... these threads wouldn't derail like that... | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Never engage with pure muta, they are used to buy time only. They should be used in combination with hydra/ling to become cost effective. To summarize, beating mech is about overall game management and efficient macro. Not taking damage to vulture run bys, and not wasting units on losing fights. Use Sunkens to drone up! Sunkens are super effective against goliaths because of their high armor/hp. A few hydras early at the proper places with proper building sim cities will protect you from vultures efficiently. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
 It's not a good example. | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On August 03 2017 14:01 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: And to comment on the Sziky vs Sea game... common. Sea out classes Sziky by so much It's not a good example.Boxer doesn't outclass sAviOr at his prime time  | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/513900-zvt-how-to-play-vs-pure-mech | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
The key here is that you should take a far-away third expansion and research lurker. During the basetrade, you can focus on killing his scans pretty easily, and then you can spread some lurkers around on the map making his goliath army unable to really walk around much. If he gets a vessel before attacking, you need to focus on building scourge. Frankly, when I've tried to engage the first tank goliath attack head on, it's close, and I lose against players that are mechanically superior to me. But it's a really immobile army and it doesn't reproduce fast at all. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
To clarify, 0 0 goliath vs 0 0 muta is 10 damage for goliath, 8-2-0.5 for muta. 1-1 goliath vs 1-1 muta ends up being 11 damage for goliath. You have two attacks dealing 10+2 damage, then you subtract 1 armor from both of those, then you have 2x11, then you split that in half because of explosive. Mutas on the other hand end up dealing 8-1.3-0.5. 2-2 vs 2-2 you get 12 damage for goliaths and 8-0.5-0.5. 3-3 vs 3-3 ends up with 13 for goliath, 8-0.5-0.5 for muta. This is a massive difference from the 10 vs 8-2, or occasional 10 vs 9-2.3 you can get early on - and it's certainly true that a big muta army can destroy unsupported unupgraded and outnumbered goliaths. And this doesn't even take into account that when terran is meching, they'll often have two armories against one spire, so in reality you get like 2-2 goliath vs 2-0 mutas and stuff like that. This math is a little simplified and rounded down, but this is basically how the numbers play out. Like I guess on a map like blue storm, you could do 2 hatch muta into 3 gas muta and flat out win a muta vs goliath war against someone doing 5 factory pure goliath, but most mech iterations on most maps won't really let you do that. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2037 Posts
- go for fast tech so you can get lurkers / swarm in time while taking 4 bases total - go for mass muta / hydra timing where you can try to outmacro terran and win in a straight fight or for something like Drone mentioned in above post. Whatever you do you should make a bunch of mutas for harassment when possible. Both situations, when you see terran being somewhat defensive try to take +1-2 bases asap. Of course terrans tend to play different "mass goliath" builds that vary from fast 4-5 goliath pushes to slow 3 base high upgrade high limit goliaths. Also the beggining of the game may be purely economical or a terran can do different vulture openings. | ||
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Crispy-G
3 Posts
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
With that being said, when I was dabbling in the realm of Terran play, I could not win vs Zerg except with mass goliaths. Now, on the surface that seems weird, but when you get down into the details, it's easy to see why it's so effective at a lower level of play. For Terran, as a low level player, going mass goliaths gives you a few key advantages: You don't have to balance gas heavy/min heavy units You have flexibility to deal with ground units (as their numbers will be low before you move) and mutas You don't really have to worry about lurkers You can relatively easily move out on the map vs any composition to pressure the zerg 3rd You don't have to siege You only really have to micro against Muta (if you get caught in a bad position vs Hydra, you might as well just leave the game, no micro involved) As Zerg, you have a lot more concerns Defending your third as you are vulnerable regardless which composition you go for unless your macro is on par Not overcompensating with too many units Not committing too much to micro while letting your macro slip Harass the Terran so that he can't easily contain you (or take a third) | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=39984185772697130587 Ty2 vs TerranBoy, both A rank players. | ||
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
I want to see the thread starter's reaction to this discussion. | ||
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