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DSh1
292 Posts
I'm fine with life being arrested for gambling himself if that was illegal. But for me this is not a Starcraft related issue. Therefore the ban on playing SC2 is ridiculous (though there are reasons $$$, just not ethical ones). I don't understand the people hating on him. My point is people have been successfully brainwashed to go nuts on the symptoms while being completely fine with the root of the problem. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
I don't understand the people hating on him. Right-minded people are many. Anything that's not 100% right is reprehensible to the highest degree for them ... | ||
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goody153
44125 Posts
On June 02 2017 13:19 DSh1 wrote: The reason for throwing a game be it a bribe or whatever. Why should it matter? I don't find it any different than any other reason. In the first place this should be legalized, then there would be less/no incentive for betting/bribing. It's just as stupid as the case where Naniwa was punished for a probe rush or at the olympics, where badminton players where punished for losing on purpose to get a different seeding for the playoffs. Morally speaking I don't find Life's actions more wrong than the people responsible for designing the system/rules. It is a system that favors a betting environment, difficult to guess why... . I'm fine with life being arrested for gambling himself if that was illegal. But for me this is not a Starcraft related issue. Therefore the ban on playing SC2 is ridiculous (though there are reasons $$$, just not ethical ones). I don't understand the people hating on him. It's a big deal. The whole point of a spectating a competitive scene is that the competitors are giving their best which gives us unpredictable results not the fixed one. It's kinda like the difference between a real event and a story of a fictional event made by a writer. If we allow a matchfixer like Life back we might as well turn the entire sc2 esports scene into something similar to wrestling where everything has a fixed narrative(for simpler terms having fake competition). It's kinda a moot point Gambling is one thing but matchfixing is another | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
If we allow a matchfixer like Life back we might as well turn the entire sc2 esports scene into something similar to wrestling where everything has a fixed narrative(for simpler terms having fake competition). It's kinda a moot point It was the case, the scene was corrupt | ||
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goody153
44125 Posts
that's why i said the the whole thing would be a moot point if we let Life back in after the matchfixing (or accused matchfixing) it's impossible to trust the results the competitors in a competitive scene if we let a matchfixer back into it it's what makes sports/esports a thing but if it had fixed results it turns into a show instead of a competitive scene | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
We watch it for the games, Rasmussen vs Contador 2007 was amazing even if everyone was able to say they were doped. I prefer watch Life instead of curious ... | ||
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ruypture
United States367 Posts
?????????????????? | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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`dunedain
655 Posts
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DSh1
292 Posts
On June 02 2017 13:30 goody153 wrote: It's a big deal. The whole point of a spectating a competitive scene is that the competitors are giving their best which gives us unpredictable results not the fixed one. It's kinda like the difference between a real event and a story of a fictional event made by a writer. If we allow a matchfixer like Life back we might as well turn the entire sc2 esports scene into something similar to wrestling where everything has a fixed narrative(for simpler terms having fake competition). It's kinda a moot point Gambling is one thing but matchfixing is another As I said, if you legalize it so-called "match-fixing" there would be no incentive to do so. People don't just randomly pay players for losing because they have too much money and even if they did, this would be very rare. Not allowing "match-fixing" is only a make-shift solution. It fixes a problem, that is artificially introduced by the rules in place. Instead, designing the rules in a way, that they don't create trouble in the first place, would be the smarter choice. This applies not only here. People invent weird complicated procedures to solve problems which they unnecessarily introduced beforehand instead of properly fixing their basis. In this case it's the not allowing to throw a game rule. I understand where you are coming from, but I don't share your conclusions (e.g. Allowing life back, means turning SC2 into wrestling; or the assumption that competitors are always giving their best (that's a fallacy, what does "giving your best" mean anyway?)) I could go further into that, but that's not the point I want to make here. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
If there are 3 people with you and all 3 people vote to steal your money, does that make it ethical? -No, just because they vote it to make it a law, doesn't make it just or the best policy to blindly follow (Ex. black slavery,etc). So likewise, just because a law is established of gambling being illegal or bribery,etc doesn't necessarily mean we should be outraged, it is simply whatever society collectively voted to be their morality compass. I am not arguing for or against gambling/bribery, this is not my point, but the point again is to think critically of why a law is justified, and should we actually be outraged? I think people have the right to be upset or disappointed by Life's choices of course, but to have this judgmental attitude holier than thou is very hypocritical. Everyone makes mistakes, if you think you're too good of a citizen, you haven't seen enough of humanity and are naive, or too proud to admit your own failings that you may not have noticed. Whenever I get outraged at someone, I am humbled sometimes when I remember the things I have done. I'm not a trouble maker from societal standards but it takes some humility to realize how sinful you are as a human being, and to look at the plank in your own eye before only focusing on your brothers. An argument against match fixing or losing on purpose is stupid. There's not a reliable way to police someone's intention of losing on purpose or just off his game. Just make the system in place to where it's more beneficial for people to win and you get people that actually care about winning than throwing away matches to get extra money. If you have an argument about bribery, I'd say the legal definition of a bribery is to offer/give an official or person in charge to influence their decisions, which doesn't fit the scenario we would have here. What we mean when we say bribery when it comes to games, is match fixing, so based on that definition, it's not a crime unless korean law has a different definition of bribery. So if Korea doesn't have a legal definition of bribery that fits this scenario, they are just prosecuting him due to the interest of e-sports, which again I'd argue isn't an ethical way to prosecute someone for a criminal charge just for your self-interest. You can go after him with a civil charge, but not a criminal one. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4100 Posts
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_cricket_spot-fixing_scandal mohammad amir was a prodigiously talented bowler, and interestingly enough, there were calls from both sides of the fence to either ban him for life or be lenient because he was so young and talented. in the end, he was banned for 5 years and now is back playing international cricket. certainly draws parallels to this case, though i cannot imagine many people feel comfortable with him back playing. | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
This scandal in many ways became the template for how to deal with matchfixing and why bans are so harsh. Wikipedia entry on the Black Sox scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox_Scandal There are many many other articles and books on the "Black Sox" scandal, and it's aftermath, if anyone is curious. | ||
Waxangel
United States33390 Posts
On June 02 2017 22:19 ChriS-X wrote: a similar incident also happened in cricket a few years ago where 3 pakistani players, including mohammad amir (who was 18 at the time), were convicted of spot-fixing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_cricket_spot-fixing_scandal mohammad amir was a prodigiously talented bowler, and interestingly enough, there were calls from both sides of the fence to either ban him for life or be lenient because he was so young and talented. in the end, he was banned for 5 years and now is back playing international cricket. certainly draws parallels to this case, though i cannot imagine many people feel comfortable with him back playing. One of the things I do like to point out for context is that there's been a match-fixing scandal in basically every single pro sport in Korea, not just StarCraft. From what I've gathered, the punishments are similarly harsh for traditional sports as it is in esports, with players receiving fines and suspended sentences from the courts, and lifetime bans from the sports associations. Although, it seems like a topic worth looking into in more detail, just to see where the small differences are. For instance, there was a thing in Korea baseball where players were offered lenient punishment if they came forward and confessed, not sure what came of that. | ||
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b0rt_
Norway931 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 02 2017 22:47 Waxangel wrote: One of the things I do like to point out for context is that there's been a match-fixing scandal in basically every single pro sport in Korea, not just StarCraft. From what I've gathered, the punishments are similarly harsh for traditional sports as it is in esports, with players receiving fines and suspended sentences from the courts, and lifetime bans from the sports associations. Although, it seems like a topic worth looking into in more detail, just to see where the small differences are. For instance, there was a thing in Korea baseball where players were offered lenient punishment if they came forward and confessed, not sure what came of that. What I want to know the most is if the Koreans netizens are perplexed/outraged at foreigners wanting Life back | ||
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aeligos
United States172 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On June 02 2017 23:17 Ej_ wrote: What I want to know the most is if the Koreans netizens are perplexed/outraged at foreigners wanting Life back What i want to know the most is why nobody ever talks about the questionable circumstances in korean esports. Yes these guys are bad for doing what they did, but the whole situation in korea might be at fault there as well. Nobody ever brings this up though. Other than that, another bump for this thread, yay! | ||
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HKTPZ
105 Posts
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