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On January 04 2017 02:21 Cyro wrote:
A t3 raid geared char doing 15x more damage than a fresh 100 seems inevitable.
I think it's over the top, if they did 3x damage then it would be a very nice reward already.
We have this idea about doubling damage again and again and again and again for it to feel rewarding but the cumulative effect is strongly negative for the game IMO. Don't wanna rant about it too much, just finally got an idea of the damage i'l be capable of in NH and found it interesting~
Which means the last boss in the game is going to be about 5 phases where he gets to 1hp and heals to full thanks to wows shitty out dated engine
its amazing what it took them from vanilla to mop to do they managed to do from ... wod to the 1st/2nd raid tier of the next expansion
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On January 04 2017 02:56 arb wrote:
Which means the last boss in the game is going to be about 5 phases where he gets to 1hp and heals to full thanks to wows shitty out dated engine
It's not that bad... you get to use execute/reverse-execute abilities throughout the encounter regularly.
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On January 04 2017 02:56 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 02:21 Cyro wrote:
A t3 raid geared char doing 15x more damage than a fresh 100 seems inevitable.
I think it's over the top, if they did 3x damage then it would be a very nice reward already.
We have this idea about doubling damage again and again and again and again for it to feel rewarding but the cumulative effect is strongly negative for the game IMO. Don't wanna rant about it too much, just finally got an idea of the damage i'l be capable of in NH and found it interesting~ Which means the last boss in the game is going to be about 5 phases where he gets to 1hp and heals to full thanks to wows shitty out dated engine its amazing what it took them from vanilla to mop to do they managed to do from ... wod to the 1st/2nd raid tier of the next expansion
I believe they changed the backend so that its no longer needed to go like that.
And yes its stupid how they allowed the scaling post squish to get this out of control this fast.
It also means that Bring the gear, not the player is more of a thing since skill can only compensate so much
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On January 04 2017 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 02:56 arb wrote:On January 04 2017 02:21 Cyro wrote:
A t3 raid geared char doing 15x more damage than a fresh 100 seems inevitable.
I think it's over the top, if they did 3x damage then it would be a very nice reward already.
We have this idea about doubling damage again and again and again and again for it to feel rewarding but the cumulative effect is strongly negative for the game IMO. Don't wanna rant about it too much, just finally got an idea of the damage i'l be capable of in NH and found it interesting~ Which means the last boss in the game is going to be about 5 phases where he gets to 1hp and heals to full thanks to wows shitty out dated engine its amazing what it took them from vanilla to mop to do they managed to do from ... wod to the 1st/2nd raid tier of the next expansion I believe they changed the backend so that its no longer needed to go like that. And yes its stupid how they allowed the scaling post squish to get this out of control this fast. It also means that Bring the gear, not the player is more of a thing since skill can only compensate so much
"Allowed" is the wrong word imo since they even increased scaling recently as it seemed too low to them. It is a very deliberate decision.
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8751 Posts
By making gear (and AP) so important for DPS, doesn't that help minimize the bad effects of poor balancing of specs? Guilds full of underpowered specs can still hope to clear the content as they get overgeared. But if a whole tier of gear accounted for only +10% damage or something like that, then some fully farmed specs would still be underperforming what other specs did on their first pulls months ago. So before Blizzard reduces DPS gains over time, they'd have to really tighten up class balance to a point that I don't think they're even capable of doing anymore with how many specs there are and how much variety they're trying to have.
Maybe they could try tightening it up a little, but it seems that to whatever extent they do it will amplify class balance issues (and raid design issues).
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On January 04 2017 05:09 NonY wrote:
By making gear (and AP) so important for DPS, doesn't that help minimize the bad effects of poor balancing of specs? Guilds full of underpowered specs can still hope to clear the content as they get overgeared. But if a whole tier of gear accounted for only +10% damage or something like that, then some fully farmed specs would still be underperforming what other specs did on their first pulls months ago. So before Blizzard reduces DPS gains over time, they'd have to really tighten up class balance to a point that I don't think they're even capable of doing anymore with how many specs there are and how much variety they're trying to have.
Maybe they could try tightening it up a little, but it seems that to whatever extent they do it will amplify class balance issues (and raid design issues).
They managed a good enough job up to MoP. Seems wierd they can no longer balance it without such huge power curves.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On January 04 2017 05:09 NonY wrote:
By making gear (and AP) so important for DPS, doesn't that help minimize the bad effects of poor balancing of specs? Guilds full of underpowered specs can still hope to clear the content as they get overgeared. But if a whole tier of gear accounted for only +10% damage or something like that, then some fully farmed specs would still be underperforming what other specs did on their first pulls months ago. So before Blizzard reduces DPS gains over time, they'd have to really tighten up class balance to a point that I don't think they're even capable of doing anymore with how many specs there are and how much variety they're trying to have.
Maybe they could try tightening it up a little, but it seems that to whatever extent they do it will amplify class balance issues (and raid design issues).
At the moment they can spend months making small tweaks to get things in line and then all of their previous work is thrown out the window because of the huge increase and differences in scaling. With smaller changes, a smaller amount of tweaking would be required to keep things balanced to the same standard.
Even looking at set bonuses alone, tier 19 is a DPS loss for some specs and a 15-20% DPS gain for others. I guess that's part of it's own problem, it is poor design.
I think that it does help like you say but also that the scaling is making balance much more difficult than it has to be
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Spec imbalance is a red herring. The numerical imbalance between specs isn't large enough to make a significant difference insofar as guilds clearing or not clearing content is concerned (it has other meaningful effects, but that's not one of them).
Stronger gear scaling allows worse guilds and players to eventually overgear and clear content, and reduces how long it takes to get to that "overgeared" point for everyone else. Before it might take months to farm up enough gear to overcome a tough boss, but now it might only take a few weeks as the impact of each new piece of gear is greater.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Spec imbalance is a red herring. The numerical imbalance between specs isn't large enough to make a significant difference insofar as guilds clearing or not clearing content is concerned (it has other meaningful effects, but that's not one of them).
The gap between lucky class with lucky legendary vs unlucky class with unlucky legendary expanded to about +30% damage leads during TOV progress which was too much IMO.
Top top guilds actively avoid getting the worst end of this situation in a few ways which are both annoying / bad gameplay and time consuming to an extreme that nobody else will take on.
What level of imbalance would you deem acceptable? +15%, +30%, +60%? At some point it starts to break everything and long before that, the effects are felt.
With 6 months to take on 10 bosses, a bit of gear lag is fine
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Yeah, that's one of the meaningful problems I alluded to. All things being equal there isn't enough difference between specs for imbalance to impact clearing or not clearing. Unfortunately legendaries mean all things are rarely equal, and they create a lot of awful situations for everybody from Mythic raiders all the way down to LFR.
A 10% difference between top and bottom or better is ideal, since that's roughly the range of statistical/fight-to-fight noise. Anything beyond that is bad, and 30% is clearly egregious and in dire need of fixing.
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On January 04 2017 01:25 Cyro wrote:
DPS scaling in legion so far for 300s fight:
~130k fresh ding
~280k preraid 840 on most armor
~450k EN/TOV mythic gear
~700k Nighthold
>1m in tomb of sarg?
700k nighthold? Probably 1m nighthold. There are a lot of 600ks on guarm already that arent shadows https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/12#boss=1962
Tomb of sarg will also have the increased artefakt upgrades iirc, so some more potential there.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
I'm going by 300s +-20% simdps because it's objective and not reliant on the rest of the raid, raid mechanics etc - just straight up patchwerk damage in different gear levels.
Taking 100,000 iterations of a 300s +-60s fight will give a much more stable value than that best pull you ever got on a 183s fight length as well, some of those can be quite wild and the number is higher there for a bunch of reasons
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I just saw a treasure goblin spawn ingame on eu, it appeared as a treasure chest icon on the minimap and some guys ran to it but it disappeared. Anyone know more about them?
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its the d3 micro holiday event thingy i suppose.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Yeah, got a portal to cow level thing at the end of an instance too. It hasn't really been mentioned anywhere, just went live 
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sanguine overflowing week. There are like a hundred maw boost groups. How can blizzard see this and not think anything is wrong with the reward system.
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On January 04 2017 22:41 Warri wrote:
sanguine overflowing week. There are like a hundred maw boost groups. How can blizzard see this and not think anything is wrong with the reward system.
Lol guess I will grind some AP this week.
Also agree that current key system is way too much about boosting. Fresh 110 with 780 item lvl and 1000k hp get random people to carry them through M+ just because they have a key. If you are lucky to roll maw key you have 3 chests guaranteed no matter the lvl because there are dozens of groups waiting to carry you, idk.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Nobody would take my dht2 key on alt, almost all doing 7-9 last week or maw only
m+ just needs some adjustment for dungeon length. Having a range of dungeon lengths so that the fastest is 2.4x shorter than the longest is fine but not when they give the same thing at the end.
If level 7 HOV gave 500k AP, 2.5x legendary chance and 4 items per chest while maw gave 200k with 2 items per chest then i'd go run it a bunch, there are some nice items in there.
Dungeons being converted from 5-man to 4-man+randomguy made my personal experience worse. I'd like to run more with friends but we start the week with our keys ranging from level 9 to level 13 and then what? There's no reward for failing a level 17 key for 5 hours.
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Affix difficulty also needs to be tuned. Sanguine Overflow this week is such a joke, plays like there is no affix at all.
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On January 05 2017 00:43 Redox wrote:
Affix difficulty also needs to be tuned. Sanguine Overflow this week is such a joke, plays like there is no affix at all.
Yeah we had Sanquine Overflow a couple of weeks back. Nearly pugged a Court +14 timer with an 880ish grp, If it wasnt for the melee bombing themselves on Flamewreath we would have made it to. Its actually stupid easy. If the grp doesnt take much avoidable damage.
I also agree the reward system should match the length of dungeons. Maw grps are harder to get but Ill get a few a week. But generally im just spamming court or Nelths. Theres like zero reason to do anything else for me.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
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EPT
