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8751 Posts
On November 19 2016 02:00 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 01:53 Warri wrote:
Method world first again. Really surprising, where did they get so many good raiders after that split. At the really highest level mechanically, most players are pretty even. So its more a testament to good leadership than anything else.
I've never been in one of these really top tier guilds, but I'd imagine that creating a productive environment is important. The talent and skill is there but it's gotta come together into a strategy that can be performed consistently. I think that the knowledge and judgment skills of the shot callers and strategy makers is what really makes the difference. But when the numbers are so tight, I imagine that there actually is a difference in individual skill that matters, as far as being able to put in a best-in-the-world performance for dozens and then hundreds of pulls in a row.
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On November 19 2016 02:18 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 01:53 Warri wrote:
Method world first again. Really surprising, where did they get so many good raiders after that split. 5 fucking shadow priests on their line-up apparently. lol AT LEAST ONE RETRI THO
Retri is pretty damn good currently, their retri was first on the Guarm kill.
Also, 2 or 3 of the SPs are reroll given their AP :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oKbiHRR.png)
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On November 19 2016 02:25 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 02:00 Rebs wrote:On November 19 2016 01:53 Warri wrote:
Method world first again. Really surprising, where did they get so many good raiders after that split. At the really highest level mechanically, most players are pretty even. So its more a testament to good leadership than anything else. I've never been in one of these really top tier guilds, but I'd imagine that creating a productive environment is important. The talent and skill is there but it's gotta come together into a strategy that can be performed consistently. I think that the knowledge and judgment skills of the shot callers and strategy makers is what really makes the difference. But when the numbers are so tight, I imagine that there actually is a difference in individual skill that matters, as far as being able to put in a best-in-the-world performance for dozens and then hundreds of pulls in a row.
Well yes and im not saying its not incredibly nuanced.
Its extremely organized, things,like heal groups and dps groups + Show Spoiler +(being in multiple channels simultaneously to communicate internally without distracting the raid and being with the raid channel for leader instructions and call outs etc)
So there is a huge element of teamwork and problem solving at an individual and collective level to maximize performance for the entire raid. Whoever iterates that the fastest wins.
In 40 man it didnt matter so much. Alot of poor performers would get masked and you would get carried.
25 man was alot tighter and managing mechanics was alot harder. But getting 25 skilled players was also harder, poorer performers got squeezed out very quickly. And in some c
I dont have any experience with 20 mans so I cant comment on that, but theres is without a doubt a whole new set of advantages and challenges that play out.
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On November 19 2016 02:41 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 02:18 Grettin wrote:On November 19 2016 01:53 Warri wrote:
Method world first again. Really surprising, where did they get so many good raiders after that split. 5 fucking shadow priests on their line-up apparently. lol AT LEAST ONE RETRI THO Retri is pretty damn good currently, their retri was first on the Guarm kill. + Show Spoiler +Also, 2 or 3 of the SPs are reroll given their AP :
oh absolutely. I play retri myself. Just didn't notice many retris on wowprogress when i checked top 10 with two bosses down. Dunno if the site had updated the kill rosters completely.
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On November 19 2016 03:03 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 02:41 Noocta wrote:On November 19 2016 02:18 Grettin wrote:On November 19 2016 01:53 Warri wrote:
Method world first again. Really surprising, where did they get so many good raiders after that split. 5 fucking shadow priests on their line-up apparently. lol AT LEAST ONE RETRI THO Retri is pretty damn good currently, their retri was first on the Guarm kill. + Show Spoiler +Also, 2 or 3 of the SPs are reroll given their AP : oh absolutely. I play retri myself. Just didn't notice many retris on wowprogress when i checked top 10 with two bosses down. Dunno if the site had updated the kill rosters completely.
It pulls form armoury so its pretty quick.
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On November 19 2016 02:41 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 02:18 Grettin wrote:On November 19 2016 01:53 Warri wrote:
Method world first again. Really surprising, where did they get so many good raiders after that split. 5 fucking shadow priests on their line-up apparently. lol AT LEAST ONE RETRI THO Retri is pretty damn good currently, their retri was first on the Guarm kill. Also, 2 or 3 of the SPs are reroll given their AP : + Show Spoiler +
That healer and dps stacking O_o
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On November 19 2016 03:41 Duvon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 02:41 Noocta wrote:On November 19 2016 02:18 Grettin wrote:On November 19 2016 01:53 Warri wrote:
Method world first again. Really surprising, where did they get so many good raiders after that split. 5 fucking shadow priests on their line-up apparently. lol AT LEAST ONE RETRI THO Retri is pretty damn good currently, their retri was first on the Guarm kill. Also, 2 or 3 of the SPs are reroll given their AP : + Show Spoiler + That healer and dps stacking O_o
That's what happens when you make every class the same, and then some of them better than others.
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On November 19 2016 04:24 Dyme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 03:41 Duvon wrote:On November 19 2016 02:41 Noocta wrote:On November 19 2016 02:18 Grettin wrote:On November 19 2016 01:53 Warri wrote:
Method world first again. Really surprising, where did they get so many good raiders after that split. 5 fucking shadow priests on their line-up apparently. lol AT LEAST ONE RETRI THO Retri is pretty damn good currently, their retri was first on the Guarm kill. Also, 2 or 3 of the SPs are reroll given their AP : + Show Spoiler + That healer and dps stacking O_o That's what happens when you make every class the same, and then some of them better than others.
Class stacking for world firsts probably isnt going anywhere anytime soon. I dont think they will ever be able to fix that. God knows they've tried. Although SP's and hunters scaling stupidly at higher gear levels for multi target fights doesnt help.
Back in the day you would have found 1 mage in this raid for int buffs.
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On November 19 2016 04:40 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 04:24 Dyme wrote:On November 19 2016 03:41 Duvon wrote:On November 19 2016 02:41 Noocta wrote:On November 19 2016 02:18 Grettin wrote:On November 19 2016 01:53 Warri wrote:
Method world first again. Really surprising, where did they get so many good raiders after that split. 5 fucking shadow priests on their line-up apparently. lol AT LEAST ONE RETRI THO Retri is pretty damn good currently, their retri was first on the Guarm kill. Also, 2 or 3 of the SPs are reroll given their AP : + Show Spoiler + That healer and dps stacking O_o That's what happens when you make every class the same, and then some of them better than others. Class stacking for world firsts probably isnt going anywhere anytime soon. I dont think they will ever be able to fix that. God knows they've tried. Although SP's and hunters scaling stupidly at higher gear levels for multi target fights doesnt help
It wasnt that bad when you needed some classes for their utility spells though. You know, back when it was bring the class, not the player, rather than bring the fotm class for that job, but only the players who have legs, not the player.
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On November 19 2016 01:49 NonY wrote:
If the goal is for Blizzard to release challenging content and create meaningful character progression for players of all skill and dedication, then...
It really all comes down to this.
It isnt. It has never been and will likely never be this goal.
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8751 Posts
On November 19 2016 06:09 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 01:49 NonY wrote:
If the goal is for Blizzard to release challenging content and create meaningful character progression for players of all skill and dedication, then... It really all comes down to this. It isnt. It has never been and will likely never be this goal.
Why don't you want that goal? You want to be catered to at the expense of other players? Like some kind of sadism?
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I think there is a balance there. From what I see Cyro atm wouldn't even be able to really compete for Guarm in dps because he is missing one of his better legendaries. I don't think people should be locked out of this type of progression because they don't have the required random drop.
And I don't mean that he should be told that 'go do 2 months of M+ to get better gear' is a solid answer. I think he should be pushing himself to get the best gear, but if someone who is almost maxed out on current gear when this new content drops as immediate content (Not talking like this raid needed a long attunement that was meant to take a while to get to, giving you more time to gear up). He shouldn't be forced to sit out of the raid because he just can't reach those numbers that are needed for the fight.
I don't think everyone should be able to go in and face roll it either, but I feel that if you are in that top % you should be able to effectively have a chance to get progress done there with the current best gear from before that (M+10 drops/chests and M EN). Is that chance great? No, but it should be higher than 0 for sure. Do I expect to go into mythic? Not at all, I am not any where near geared or playing enough to make that happen. But if someone is in a 7/7 M EN guild that has been clearing it every week since release of the raid, on top of high end M+, I would feel that they should be able to go in and have the chance to do good progress on these bosses, even if the success chance is maybe only 10-15% and as they acquire better gear it moves up and such.
I like how ToV is very tough, but I don't think it should be unattainable for current high end guilds (I mean like top 1% or even less guilds) to just be not able to do anything in it. It reminds me of original Naxx 40 where the best gear outside of Naxx wasn't even good enough to actually kill bosses in Naxx for most classes.
If it is coming down to strategy that is one thing, but when your own class on the best ST fight is doing 30-50k less than what would be close to a minimum to start Guarm dps that feels really bad for the player.
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On November 19 2016 04:49 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 04:40 Rebs wrote:On November 19 2016 04:24 Dyme wrote:On November 19 2016 03:41 Duvon wrote:On November 19 2016 02:41 Noocta wrote:On November 19 2016 02:18 Grettin wrote:On November 19 2016 01:53 Warri wrote:
Method world first again. Really surprising, where did they get so many good raiders after that split. 5 fucking shadow priests on their line-up apparently. lol AT LEAST ONE RETRI THO Retri is pretty damn good currently, their retri was first on the Guarm kill. Also, 2 or 3 of the SPs are reroll given their AP : + Show Spoiler + That healer and dps stacking O_o That's what happens when you make every class the same, and then some of them better than others. Class stacking for world firsts probably isnt going anywhere anytime soon. I dont think they will ever be able to fix that. God knows they've tried. Although SP's and hunters scaling stupidly at higher gear levels for multi target fights doesnt help It wasnt that bad when you needed some classes for their utility spells though. You know, back when it was bring the class, not the player, rather than bring the fotm class for that job, but only the players who have legs, not the player.
Yeah guilds realised pretty quick that you would need geared alts (atleast 1 possibly 2) for content after the first tier of any new expansion. Sometimes you just dont have a choice. It kinda swung both ways for ranged and melee, All classes excel at some fights more than others and if you are struggling with a basic comp you cant resist the temptation to try something that will.
I mean it wasnt a terrible deal since you got to play different classes and it would keep the game fresh also especially with the amount of time that was dumped into the game. Again if your hardcore and you put the effort it in. Go for it.
On November 19 2016 06:38 Alventenie wrote:
I think there is a balance there. From what I see Cyro atm wouldn't even be able to really compete for Guarm in dps because he is missing one of his better legendaries. I don't think people should be locked out of this type of progression because they don't have the required random drop.
And I don't mean that he should be told that 'go do 2 months of M+ to get better gear' is a solid answer. I think he should be pushing himself to get the best gear, but if someone who is almost maxed out on current gear when this new content drops as immediate content (Not talking like this raid needed a long attunement that was meant to take a while to get to, giving you more time to gear up). He shouldn't be forced to sit out of the raid because he just can't reach those numbers that are needed for the fight.
I don't think everyone should be able to go in and face roll it either, but I feel that if you are in that top % you should be able to effectively have a chance to get progress done there with the current best gear from before that (M+10 drops/chests and M EN). Is that chance great? No, but it should be higher than 0 for sure. Do I expect to go into mythic? Not at all, I am not any where near geared or playing enough to make that happen. But if someone is in a 7/7 M EN guild that has been clearing it every week since release of the raid, on top of high end M+, I would feel that they should be able to go in and have the chance to do good progress on these bosses, even if the success chance is maybe only 10-15% and as they acquire better gear it moves up and such.
I like how ToV is very tough, but I don't think it should be unattainable for current high end guilds (I mean like top 1% or even less guilds) to just be not able to do anything in it. It reminds me of original Naxx 40 where the best gear outside of Naxx wasn't even good enough to actually kill bosses in Naxx for most classes.
If it is coming down to strategy that is one thing, but when your own class on the best ST fight is doing 30-50k less than what would be close to a minimum to start Guarm dps that feels really bad for the player.
You will see Helya kills start rolling in as people keep iterating. or it will get nerfed.
As for Guarm, looking at logs of kills there are plenty of varied grps with a variety of dps in nearly all of the kills so its clearly not a case of his class is not good enough. Maybe gear is not good enough, but look at this way.
If a guild has been farming the previous tier longer and has better gear then they deserve to kill it earlier. Otherwise whats the point of me rushing out and trying to get those early kills when the next tier comes out ?
For straight up dps check fights thats the whole point. That you should be at x level of gear to challenge this otherwise come back later (granted there are issues there in terms of class performance)
There should be a difference between someone who has been farming longer. The real problem in his case I think lies in the fact that certain gear pieces account for to much difference in dps. Which imo is extremely stupid and that I agree is a problem. If he is at the required item level to challenge the content and his itemization is correct then he shouldnt be 50-60k behind someone else just because of one legendary item. Cant disagree with that.
But thats a different issue to a fight being hard. Thats a problem with gear itemzing and class mechanics from a development standpoint. And I have some serious gripes on that bit for alot of classes. But again thats a different problem.
Additionally on the point of top% should be able to compete,I dont know about now but really if you werent a top 50-100 guild back in the day no one really considered you top tier.
Infact there was marked different between the top 20 and then the next 30-60 would shift places and the brackets would get broader as you went along. So a top 20 guild would look at me and not believe me to be good enough unless I was consistenly the best on my guilds meters. And im only like 30-40 spots and a week or 2 behind.
What you really need to look at is where you lie in the list of competitive raiding guilds and go from there. Saying my guild is 500th in the world and thats the top 2 percent or whatever+ Show Spoiler + (and I dont mean to disparage anyone here just want to point out the relativity
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On November 19 2016 06:13 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 06:09 Kreb wrote:On November 19 2016 01:49 NonY wrote:
If the goal is for Blizzard to release challenging content and create meaningful character progression for players of all skill and dedication, then... It really all comes down to this. It isnt. It has never been and will likely never be this goal. Why don't you want that goal? You want to be catered to at the expense of other players? Like some kind of sadism?
I mean if Blizzard could make 15 difficulties sure they'd have that part covered. But I assume that would run into a few other problems too. Not to mention the extra work they'd have to do to make additional difficulties.
Assuming 4 difficulties, that isnt a question. Im sure I dont need to answer why its a bad idea to make a difficulty for the top 0.05 while the 0.05 - 10% playerbase gets to progress 2 weeks each tier while not being able to attempt the next step up in difficulty due to it being too hard.
Yes, numbers taken out of my ass etc, and I know the 0.05 - 0.1% would soon make it too since theres all levels of players. But you get my point. Its design suicide to make your game for such a rediculously small part of your playerbase.
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It really isnt that impossible to make good content that challenges more levels of players though. Look at Archimonde. You could make P2 with 4 sets of Allure Flames and Wrought Chaos. First kills did that iirc. Fight got harder that way, but the best players made it. And theres nothing saying you couldnt keep going in P2 longer than that.
Eventualyl people got gear, got better legendary rings etc and my guild killed it with 3 sets of both those abilities. And guild who killed it later cheesed P1 to only get 1 doomfire making it even easier.
And what you have there is a boss that definintely challenges the top 10 guilds since they have to go through longer phases and deal with more abilities. And its still a massive challange for a top 500 guild even though you maybe skip a set of abilities. Thats perfect design. Make phases harder the longer they become. And auto-nerf mechanics help. Suddenly lots of levels of players gets a worthy challenge. You challenge peoples level of execution.
Or you do Ghuarm and make an execution-wise extremely easy boss but put a stupid gear/skill requirement that isnt a challenge for top 500 guilds. Its just a wall. And that on a boss which isnt even an end instance boss.
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So you just pointed out why it is difficult if not impossible to do. Considering that I would say they are doing a pretty good job at offering content for a huge variety of players.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
We’re making some significant changes to many specializations in Patch 7.1.5, and this has understandably resulted in some concern and confusion, particularly from players who may be less familiar with our PTR and development processes. So, we’d like to take a moment to explain what’s going on and how it pertains to what you’re seeing (or haven’t yet seen) on the PTR.
First, it’s important to understand the role that the PTR plays in our overall development process. At this stage, Patch 7.1.5 is still a work in progress. The PTR is only a snapshot of where we happened to be in development at the time the build was created. There are a lot of people working on WoW, and a lot of projects in various stages of completion. As a result, especially at this early stage of the PTR cycle, you’re going to see a lot of incomplete or unfinished work. Quite often, when something you see doesn’t make sense, it’s simply because we hadn’t finished making it make sense before the latest build was created.
Looking specifically at class design, the changes you’re seeing so far are focused primarily on how each spec plays in terms of mechanics, rotations, ability sets, talent options, etc. As some of these changes are fairly significant, we haven’t been making many adjustments to overall performance just yet. We need each spec to be completely functional before we can start tuning its effectiveness.
Right now, the build currently live on the 7.1.5 PTR is only about halfway through those mechanical changes. We’ve been continuing to work hard on getting those finished, and the next build should give you a clearer picture of what’s happening with your spec. We’ll try to share as much insight as we can into what we’re doing at that point.
We'll be removing the AP earned from those who excessively abused this exploit.
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I think he should be pushing himself to get the best gear
It's "I need one item from EN M / TOV H" levels of good atm, to fall short with 35 traits is pretty shocking
#1 logs in the world for ursoc mythic without legendary ring is 428k (cinidaria) and 423k (basically 0 legendary ST gain); they're both 4m30s fights while havoc gets a large burst phase with all cooldowns at 4:00 which is removed from Guarm because that's the moment that he enrages.
I cut the second log, the 423k to 4:00 and his DPS drops to 401k.
tl;dr 400k ST 4:00 with Havoc is no joke
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There should be a difference between someone who has been farming longer. The real problem in his case I think lies in the fact that certain gear pieces account for to much difference in dps. Which imo is extremely stupid and that I agree is a problem. If he is at the required item level to challenge the content and his itemization is correct then he shouldnt be 50-60k behind someone else just because of one legendary item. Cant disagree with that.
There is a significant difference between people who farmed for longer, it's just that the amount of time per 1% DPS upgrade increases exponentially until you're playing for 100 hours to get another +1%. A bunch of people are already pretty close to that point and almost entirely counting on lucky titanforges and legendaries for any remaining progress
What you really need to look at is where you lie in the list of competitive raiding guilds and go from there. Saying my guild is 500th in the world and thats the top 2 percent or whatever+ Show Spoiler + is a relative comparison to what are some really really bad players who still walk into mythic raids and in alot of cases even get kills.
1235 guilds have killed Cenarius M, 3627 guilds have killed 4/7 or better
My expectation for a raid harder than EN would be maybe 1000 guilds passing Guarm, 700 getting Helya. If only 200 could get past Guarm then it's a bit of a shock to everyone, it would mean that 5 out of 6 guilds to clear EN can't do TOV
We will see more about how hard it is and how people do in the coming weeks (27 guilds got him in 4 days)
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Hey guys,
I'm thinking about picking up the game again. How's it atm in terms of lvling / getting geared / etc ?
I am mostly a pvp player, got pissed off with Draenors because of garrisons & having to spam Ashran all day loong.
How are rogues / healer priests in Pvp these days ? Mostly holy / assa
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Teeming + Skittish + Foritfied HoV +10 are you kidding me. Couldn't make it past the pack after 1st boss. Probably need a 4 way stun setup for chain stuns to survive that shit -.-
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EPT
