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On April 29 2015 22:19 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2015 18:23 letian wrote:On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote:
For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete). ArvickHero, I don't know what is your problem but you're not a good person and I'd rather have a chat with a match fixer than sit with you at the same table. lol i totally agree with him savior should be banned for life from anything having to do with BW
I know you do and that is your right. I am not here to change your opinion but to share mine.
And what I think is that no one among us has the authority to condemn somebody who makes a stupid mistake which was intentionally escalated and made public so that all of us could suck it up and chew for the rest of our lives over and over again. Everything could be just fine if they handled him behind the closed doors. Yet, they decided to make it public, so that you guys could exercise some demagogy. You talk as if Savior is some organized criminal when in fact he was just a youngster whose only mistake was that he was too popular and the mob happily used this soft spot.
Trust me, if I ever meet people so absorbed with being righteous like you guys and I see them make a mistake, they will never forget this day.
Did I sound ridiculous? This is exactly what you did.
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The only thing that has surprised me about this thread is when someone said Effort was given a shit contract based on looks. Really?? What kind of contracts did Hyvaa, Action, etc get then? I find that a bit hard to believe. If it's true...then damn, guess you have to look like Bisu to make it in BW.
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On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote:
김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
Why did Effort come back after retirement, did CJ offer him more money after Savior got canned?
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This is one of the most fascinating and horrifying things I have seen in my life. Not, I should specify, because what's involved is so awful, but because it's happening in something close to me. It's putting a lot of human nature into perspective for me, and in a rather awful way.
Before this point, I have never truly understood how much hatred humans can feel towards one another for nothing more than interfering with a simple interest. Let's be clear: nobody in this thread relies on Broodwar for their food. Nobody. Not one of you has been pushed into poverty by the decline of the game. All that this game is to you is a way of spending time. The game is indeed well-loved, but that is it. Perhaps you could make the argument that losing something so dear is a fair reason for hating someone, and make the analogy to someone else "stealing" your significant other. But that doesn't hold up. I look at the right-hand side of the TeamLiquid page, and I see over a dozen extremely skilled Broodwar streamers. There are even tournaments happening. So it isn't that the thing you love is gone, even. It is just that Broodwar has diminished in size. Is that what matters to all of you? Is the only thing of importance how many people show up to Broodwar events? Are you incapable of feeling the same attachment to the game because people play League now? That's absurd. It smacks of the "ded gaem" bullshit pulled by the most contemptible members of the SC2 community. And all this is assuming that Savior was the sole cause of the decline, which is clearly not the case. So, could it possibly be true that Savior has earned such gut-wrenching bile from all of you for contributing in some small way to the game having less players and less money in its tournaments?
No, I doubt any of that is true. I want to believe it isn't true, because that's far too petty. Wishing misery on someone for something so insignificant years after the fact is simply too horrible for words. I believe the real reason is that it felt like a betrayal to all of you, and so you took the matchfixing not as rational humans, but as jilted lovers. You refuse to forgive him not because he's unforgivable, but simply because of the pain of your emotional state. I'm speaking directly to you, here, Hot_Bid. You obviously idolized Savior, and when he did something that you hated, you couldn't square it with how you placed him on a pedestal. You couldn't take him as a human who makes mistakes. It's no different than the fans of Japanese and Korean idols who become obsessed with their "purity" and who go half-crazy if they find out those idols have boyfriends. This hatred is not a product of rational criticism for anything Savior has done. This hatred is simply the result of an unstable emotional state that should never have existed in the first place.
I'm disgusted with all of you who feel this hatred towards Savior, towards a human with his own life and his own future and his own pain, and I'm especially disgusted by those of you who wish him to suffer as a result of that hatred. And yet I do feel I can forgive you for it, just as I can forgive Savior for his disgusting choice to compromise his honesty and integrity. I do not resent any of you for it.
I just hope that you can cleanse your hearts.
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On April 30 2015 02:23 Acritter wrote:
This is one of the most fascinating and horrifying things I have seen in my life. Not, I should specify, because what's involved is so awful, but because it's happening in something close to me. It's putting a lot of human nature into perspective for me, and in a rather awful way.
Before this point, I have never truly understood how much hatred humans can feel towards one another for nothing more than interfering with a simple interest. Let's be clear: nobody in this thread relies on Broodwar for their food. Nobody. Not one of you has been pushed into poverty by the decline of the game. All that this game is to you is a way of spending time. The game is indeed well-loved, but that is it. Perhaps you could make the argument that losing something so dear is a fair reason for hating someone, and make the analogy to someone else "stealing" your significant other. But that doesn't hold up. I look at the right-hand side of the TeamLiquid page, and I see over a dozen extremely skilled Broodwar streamers. There are even tournaments happening. So it isn't that the thing you love is gone, even. It is just that Broodwar has diminished in size. Is that what matters to all of you? Is the only thing of importance how many people show up to Broodwar events? Are you incapable of feeling the same attachment to the game because people play League now? That's absurd. It smacks of the "ded gaem" bullshit pulled by the most contemptible members of the SC2 community. And all this is assuming that Savior was the sole cause of the decline, which is clearly not the case. So, could it possibly be true that Savior has earned such gut-wrenching bile from all of you for contributing in some small way to the game having less players and less money in its tournaments?
No, I doubt any of that is true. I want to believe it isn't true, because that's far too petty. Wishing misery on someone for something so insignificant years after the fact is simply too horrible for words. I believe the real reason is that it felt like a betrayal to all of you, and so you took the matchfixing not as rational humans, but as jilted lovers. You refuse to forgive him not because he's unforgivable, but simply because of the pain of your emotional state. I'm speaking directly to you, here, Hot_Bid. You obviously idolized Savior, and when he did something that you hated, you couldn't square it with how you placed him on a pedestal. You couldn't take him as a human who makes mistakes. It's no different than the fans of Japanese and Korean idols who become obsessed with their "purity" and who go half-crazy if they find out those idols have boyfriends. This hatred is not a product of rational criticism for anything Savior has done. This hatred is simply the result of an unstable emotional state that should never have existed in the first place.
I'm disgusted with all of you who feel this hatred towards Savior, towards a human with his own life and his own future and his own pain, and I'm especially disgusted by those of you who wish him to suffer as a result of that hatred. And yet I do feel I can forgive you for it, just as I can forgive Savior for his disgusting choice to compromise his honesty and integrity. I do not resent any of you for it.
I just hope that you can cleanse your hearts.
Interesting post
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All he got was a lifelong ban from Kespa. He didn't get life in prison. The spirit of the decision of course was to force him to stop being involved with SC, but Kespa has limited authority.
I don't see why people who think that Savoir should have stopped playing SC and gone on with his life is referred to as 'deep hatred'.
In the end Savoir refuses to take responsibility and still tries to make a living off the game he was banned from. All he said is that he is sorry for how he caused trouble for his fellow players and that he is sorry he got caught.
I don't see why cheats need to have a second change in the game where they cheated. That they deserve a second chance in life, sure.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On April 30 2015 03:28 Alcathous wrote:
All he got was a lifelong ban from Kespa. He didn't get life in prison. The spirit of the decision of course was to force him to stop being involved with SC, but Kespa has limited authority.
I don't see why people who think that Savoir should have stopped playing SC and gone on with his life is referred to as 'deep hatred'.
In the end Savoir refuses to take responsibility and still tries to make a living off the game he was banned from. All he said is that he is sorry for how he caused trouble for his fellow players and that he is sorry he got caught.
I don't see why cheats need to have a second change in the game where they cheated. That they deserve a second chance in life, sure.
Much like criminals, people change and people make mistakes. Saviour alongside people like UpMagic made mistakes and they were young. It appears he feels remorse for what he did and so did the others. Other than holding a grudge for the sake of it, I'd say that 5 years is a long enough time to be punished for something so minor. Infact, it's far too harsh a punishment.
People are holding this against saviour and the others for the simple fact they need someone to blame for KeSPA ditching BW. There's no reason any logical person would believe someone should be punished for the rest of their lives and stopped from doing what they love and were amazing at purely because they made a stupid decision. Those people must love the American law system where prison isn't about rehabilitation, it's about pure punishment.
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On April 30 2015 03:28 Alcathous wrote:
All he got was a lifelong ban from Kespa. He didn't get life in prison. The spirit of the decision of course was to force him to stop being involved with SC, but Kespa has limited authority.
I don't see why people who think that Savoir should have stopped playing SC and gone on with his life is referred to as 'deep hatred'.
In the end Savoir refuses to take responsibility and still tries to make a living off the game he was banned from. All he said is that he is sorry for how he caused trouble for his fellow players and that he is sorry he got caught.
I don't see why cheats need to have a second chance in the game where they cheated. That they deserve a second chance in life, sure.
Well said. Savior doesn't have to play Starcraft for a living. He continues to be free to do something else with his life.
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Integrity of professional sports are important because that's the only reason it exists.
If you want to cheat, you better be ready for a lifelong ban. It is not like dishonest people get honest when they get caught.
If we are talking about him not being able to get into school or get a job because of what he did, I'd concede that point.
Also, him denying he matchfixed doesn't help either. If he is still denying, what is the point of giving him a second chance? He wouldn't be eligible of a second chance even if you do want to give them.
Donno why you drag prison and rehabilitation into it. You also want Armstrong to compete in triathlons again? What is the fucking point of having a competition if you allow a serial cheat? It all becomes a meaningless endeavor.
This isn't prowrestling where it is all about entertaining people. Once the spirit of fair competition is in question, the outcome is meaningless.
In fact, if Savior respected the spirit of the decision and moved on with his life, he would be in a much better spot than he is now. These guys were supertalented and smart. If he put that same focus and talent to play somewhere else, he'd have a great life. So I donno why some of you insist his life is ruined for ever because he can't play in some 2k view internet tournament.
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Also have to lol @ the knee-jerk Savior fanboys out there,
accusing ppl of 'hatred' just for telling it like it is.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UrlTXsc.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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Thanks for the translation.
Savior strikes me as a very smart guy with a few key pieces missing. I can 90% believe what he's saying. His thinking that him facilitating but not making the final decision put less guilt on him was immature, but not so uncommon. It's one of those things where in another context it really wouldn't have been a big deal. But SC:BW was a relatively small, but very devoted audience and he was a professional. It's not quite the same as in other sports where half the fans don't even know the game, let alone the player's names.
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On April 30 2015 02:23 Acritter wrote:
This is one of the most fascinating and horrifying things I have seen in my life. Not, I should specify, because what's involved is so awful, but because it's happening in something close to me. It's putting a lot of human nature into perspective for me, and in a rather awful way.
Before this point, I have never truly understood how much hatred humans can feel towards one another for nothing more than interfering with a simple interest. Let's be clear: nobody in this thread relies on Broodwar for their food. Nobody. Not one of you has been pushed into poverty by the decline of the game. All that this game is to you is a way of spending time. The game is indeed well-loved, but that is it. Perhaps you could make the argument that losing something so dear is a fair reason for hating someone, and make the analogy to someone else "stealing" your significant other. But that doesn't hold up. I look at the right-hand side of the TeamLiquid page, and I see over a dozen extremely skilled Broodwar streamers. There are even tournaments happening. So it isn't that the thing you love is gone, even. It is just that Broodwar has diminished in size. Is that what matters to all of you? Is the only thing of importance how many people show up to Broodwar events? Are you incapable of feeling the same attachment to the game because people play League now? That's absurd. It smacks of the "ded gaem" bullshit pulled by the most contemptible members of the SC2 community. And all this is assuming that Savior was the sole cause of the decline, which is clearly not the case. So, could it possibly be true that Savior has earned such gut-wrenching bile from all of you for contributing in some small way to the game having less players and less money in its tournaments?
No, I doubt any of that is true. I want to believe it isn't true, because that's far too petty. Wishing misery on someone for something so insignificant years after the fact is simply too horrible for words. I believe the real reason is that it felt like a betrayal to all of you, and so you took the matchfixing not as rational humans, but as jilted lovers. You refuse to forgive him not because he's unforgivable, but simply because of the pain of your emotional state. I'm speaking directly to you, here, Hot_Bid. You obviously idolized Savior, and when he did something that you hated, you couldn't square it with how you placed him on a pedestal. You couldn't take him as a human who makes mistakes. It's no different than the fans of Japanese and Korean idols who become obsessed with their "purity" and who go half-crazy if they find out those idols have boyfriends. This hatred is not a product of rational criticism for anything Savior has done. This hatred is simply the result of an unstable emotional state that should never have existed in the first place.
I'm disgusted with all of you who feel this hatred towards Savior, towards a human with his own life and his own future and his own pain, and I'm especially disgusted by those of you who wish him to suffer as a result of that hatred. And yet I do feel I can forgive you for it, just as I can forgive Savior for his disgusting choice to compromise his honesty and integrity. I do not resent any of you for it.
I just hope that you can cleanse your hearts.
lol at "irrational hatred" for someone that organized a matchfixing ring, destroyed the integrity of the sport and years later is still dishonest and making excuses. if he was truly repentant he would have moved on, but he's still around playing BW. It's obvious why people want him out of the scene and it's not because they're "jilted lovers obsessed with purity that go crazy".
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savior still in my top 2 zergs along w/ jd!
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10387 Posts
I really don't understand this strange moral high ground you guys are trying to take here (looking at you two tools letian and Acritter). Most of us just want Savior to stay the fuck away from Brood War, especially in a capacity where he earns a buttload of money from it. We really don't care about him otherwise, and we're definitely not asking for his execution or insulting his mother or whatnot. If he starts his own business, becomes a teacher or a cop, great! good for him! All we want is him gone from the scene, the scene he deeply wounded and crippled. Savior brings back painful memories and sentiments for everyone who was heavily invested in the scene then.
I could draw an analogy to compare it to a rapist and the victim, or a murderer and the kin of the victim, but I have the feeling the point of the analogy would be missed and you'd say something dumb instead.
And you savior apologists .. trying to make it seem like what he did wasn't so bad, or how sad he is .. fuck you. He lives a cushy life off all the donations he gets. He's certainly not struggling to get by. You'd have to be delusional to think the matchfixing incident didn't do much harm. That one idiot who was saying how if matchfixing was really that harmful, thered be no sports scenes left in this world .. hey retard, did you ever hear of the Black Sox incident? Sports scenes survive matchfixing incidents because they take harsh actions against those guilty, just like the one done against Savior. You apologists remind me of those people who were insisting the Boston marathon bomber couldn't be guilty because they were so enamored by his looks. Get a grip on reality jesus .. If you like his play, fine. But don't try to justify it with some bullshit reasoning and excuse for his character and actions.
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Big thanks for translating the interview.
I find this really interesting, particularly the fact that he says that he apologised in an interview right after the scandal, because the worst thing, for me, was the fact that he apparently made no attempt to rehabilitate himself or even apologise.
However, as far as I recall, back when the scandal blew up the story was quite different from what he's saying. I remember one of the players who got caught (Hwasin, maybe?) quoting Savior as basically saying "I'm doing it, so why shouldn't you?". I also remember accusations that he had not only facilitated the match-fixing, but then had also kept the money for himself. Obviously I'm not saying that players who threw games deserved to get paid, but it would be a different level of low on Savior's side if he did that.
Anyway, I admit that the details are all a bit fuzzy for me now, but that leads me to wonder about the timing of this interview. The guy had 6 years to reach out to the community and try to make amends, but there was nothing. And after all this time we get "there is no proof"? This asshole got a (suspended) one-year jail sentence. Clearly a judge felt that there was enough proof of wrongdoing. Coming now and saying "ah, but you can't prove that i did this particular thing!" does nothing to make me warm up to him.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
hat one idiot who was saying how if matchfixing was really that harmful, thered be no sports scenes left in this world .. hey retard, did you ever hear of the Black Sox incident?
Excuse me, I have a name and since when was using retard as a pejorative a normal and acceptable thing to say? I find that incredibly offensive. Citing one incident about match fixing in another sport, good work. Do you honestly think that match fixing isn't a thing in every single sport even at this current point in time? You're delusional if you think that sports are clean. Using my example of the FA again. The teams may not be found to be match fixing, but by god does the FA do some incredibly shady stuff.
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i like how he's making money on afreeca while other (innocent) ex-pros go put on their fast food aprons to get by.
and i like how we always get the 5 ppl here appearing out of nowhere in the bw forums to explain to us how he was a young naive boy and had a rough time and deserves all that love for sticking with the game (while educating his viewers on how 2d games are stuff of the past and bw has no future [three years ago?]).
i'm continually inspired by savior threads and i look forward to more in the future. i love you all.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Eff Savior and mutalisk he rode in on.
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On April 30 2015 02:11 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2015 22:19 Hot_Bid wrote:On April 29 2015 18:23 letian wrote:On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote:
For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete). ArvickHero, I don't know what is your problem but you're not a good person and I'd rather have a chat with a match fixer than sit with you at the same table. lol i totally agree with him savior should be banned for life from anything having to do with BW I know you do and that is your right. I am not here to change your opinion but to share mine. And what I think is that no one among us has the authority to condemn somebody who makes a stupid mistake
Trust me, if I ever meet people so absorbed with being righteous like you guys and I see them make a mistake, they will never forget this day.
I find your usage of the word "mistake" peculiar. I'm willing to call any bad decision which was made due to particular circumstances (such as pressure, lack of time), but which the individual would have made differently if he had put more thought into it, a "mistake". But organizing match fixing on behalf of a bookie over an extended period? This is something that requires thought. It is not a momentary screw-up.
You talk as if Savior is some organized criminal
Because that's exactly what he was. He organized actions which are crimes under the laws of his country. He induced others to commit crimes. And he was convicted for it in a court of law. So he is a convicted organized criminal. What is your problem with this?
I don't think that people refusing to forgive him amounts to extra-judicial punishment. They simply want to have nothing to do with him, as is their right. Savior may have received his punishment according to law, but that does not mean that anyone owes him forgiveness, and they sure as hell don't owe him acceptance.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.theransoms.org/savior.jpg)
