Translator Note: Savior was one of the top Brood War players in history. However, after the 2010 match fixing scandal, he mostly disappeared, never to return. He was interviewed once, but the transcript was never released. Now this is the second time he is interviewed (around December 2013). I couldn't find the interview anywhere else, so I'm posting it here.
Part One: After the match fixing scandal, he comes to China to find a lot of supporting fans, who encourage him to compete.
Q: How did you end up playing in China? Also, did you know that this has sparked a great wave of controversy back in Korea?
Savior: First the Chinese emailed me about this. We exchanged a few emails and then I participated in a 2v2 match. I knew it was controversial, but I have my reasons. They are the same reasons why I also stream on afreeca. I'll tell you more later.
Q: What do you think of the people in Korea who criticize you?
Savior: This is impossible to avoid. I still have to deal with the criticism today, even though this happened a while ago. I don't know how long this will go on in the future. Maybe I'll have to deal with this for the rest of my life.
Q: Even though you know that you're going to get insults, you still show up to events. Why?
Savior: Participating in a Chinese competition might be a very selfish decision. I know the competition and fans will really hate me for this. But considering my current situation, I have to do this. I know I might as well confront the haters are out there. It's the same reason that I go on afreeca to stream.
Q: Can you tell me anything that happened while you were in China?
Savior: Back I was a pro player, I used to go to China. Even now, I'm surprised people there still treat me the same as I was back then. As long as people over there support me, I'm fine with it. But during the competition, there was someone who asked a question. However, one of the workers didn't allow this question to be translated. Later I found out what that question was. It wanted to know how I felt after the match fixing scandal. It was then when I realized that Chinese fans knew all about my background in Korea.
Q: Do you plan on participating in more competitions in China?
Savior: From now on, if the Chinese invite me, I will go. Korean players have participated in Chinese competitions before, and they still will in the future. An event like this happens once or twice a year. Most of the events happen online. This time I was invited to participate in my first competition. I asked one Chinese, 'If I participate in this competition, I will continue to get criticized by my own people. What do you think?' He said that he will support me regardless. He even asked me if I needed any help, but I wasn't sure what to say.
Part Two: Before the matchfixing scandal, he decided to retire. He never participated in matchfixing himself.
Q: Now for a real question. Why didn't you talk or interview after the matchfixing scandal?
Savior: I didn't have a chance to get interviewed, not because I was avoiding it. Also, I was interviewed by Fomos not long after the scandal happended. However, that interview was never released. This was during one of the hardest times in my life, the only interview I had. For some reason, that interview disappeared. Something's not right I thought. I decided to wait until I was ready. All I wanted at the time was for this to be over. After all, it was my biggest mistake in my life.
Q: What was that interview about?
Savior: At the time, I was getting surgery in the hospital. Two reporters who knew me came over for to interview. I was in the hospital because of a knee injury, so I just told them about my physical condition. I also apologized to certain pro players and my fans. Besides that, I also told them what I heard before and after the scandal. However, for some reason, I waited a while but I never saw this interview published. I was very disappointed. Even when I was streaming on afreeca, no one ever came to me for an interview. If someone ever wanted to talk to me, what I'm saying now would have been available last year or even three years ago.
Q: This is basically your first formal interview, so I can't avoid mentioning the matchfixing scandal. Even though it happened a long time ago, talking about it now might make you feel uncomfortable.
Savior: I don't think there's much to lose, so go for it. I have nothing to hide, nothing that I can't say. Also, I don't think anyone reading this interview is going to change their opinion of me.
Q: Do you have any grievances about the scandal?
Savior: I never participated in matchfixing, but most people don't really care about this fact. Even though these people know me, they see my actions as much worse than the matchfixing itself. It was extremely awkward and uncomfortable, very hard for others to think about this. Anyway, people think I deliberately lost a match to Hyvaa, but there's no proof for that.
Q: Wait, so you didn't matchfix that game?
Savior: Even though my salary was cut by a lot, I still got a lot of money from sponsors. Even though it was one match, I still wanted to win. From December 2009, I didn't go out much, only slept around 4-5 hours, and then trained. It was a tough time in my progamer career. For two months, I seriously considered retiring, so I decided to play my best before then. It's hard for me to justify that match was legitimate. Other people didn't believe me, so I felt even worse. Even later, no one believed me, but I want to prove that that match was just another match. Even though no one really cares, it still matters to me. It really hurts when people mistakenly label it as matchfixing.
Q: Back then you considered retiring?
Savior: I didn't want to just stay on the team doing nothing. I needed to protect my dignity. But I kept losing, so I couldn't just leave like that.
Q: What hurt people the most was that you did something egregious like matchfixing?
Savior: The person investigating asked me a similar question. He asked, 'Through this scandal, you only earned 2 million Korean won (around $1900). Why did you still have do this?' At the time, I could only stand there and answer. I didn't think it was that big of a problem. When someone said something like this, I knew it wasn't ok. I already planned on retiring anyway.
Q: And then?
Savior: It happened like this. I was on an online gaming site talking to Hwasin. I told him I knew a guy who would pay people 3-5 million Korean won (around $2800 - $4700) to lose games. At the time, Hwasin had already been eliminated from OSL round of 16. Even though he won a game, it didn't matter. If he was interested, I would introduce him to the guy. Later, Hwasin said that I was the one who mentioned matchfixing. I started this conversation in the first place, so it was my fault. I could have just gave this guy's contact information directly to Hwasin, but they didn't know each other, so I had to act as a middleman, giving money to pro players. Even though me and Hwasin didn't know how bad this was, we knew we couldn't let anyone else find out. But later, I don't know how another player Justin found out. He even called me, but I told him I wasn't involved in matchfixing. He told me to ask other people, so I asked DarkElf. I only gave money to Hwasin and DarkElf. DarkElf was the only one who I encouraged to matchfix. You can see all this in the court records.
Part Three: He never imagined that matchfixing would cause such an outarge. Now he streams to make money.
Q: A lot of people are mad that you disappointed your own coach Cho Kyo Nam.
Savior: After the (Korean) New Year ended (around February), I was supposed to go back to my team at around 6. However, I received a call from coach Cho saying that someone from KeSPA was coming over. Before coming over, the coach told me I must answer his question, which was whether or now I participated in the matchfixing. To be honest, I was extremely nervous, realizing that the situation had become really serious, that it had reached this step. After explaining the situation to coach Cho, he let me go home, and told me not to come back. Realizing that this might become something big, I was extremely scared. I tried to called Hwasin to ask him if only our coach knew or if the STX coach also knew. But Hwasin didn't answer my calls, didn't respond to me texts. Besides Hwasin and DarkElf, I don't know anyone else who was involved in matchfixing. In fact, I don't even know how to get into those gambling sites.
Q: Do you have anything to tell us?
Savior: Of course it would be that I'm extremely sorry, not just to the other players, but also the people who worked for CJ as well. It's even worse for my coach, who had a lot of trust me. Not long before, there was a streamer 김봉준 (transliterates to Kim Bong Jun, ID might be mong) who said , back when I was training, I was cut from the team because of you. I could not open my mouth. It wasn't just one or two guys who got screwed over. I'm really sorry to them.
Q: You mentioned before that the reasons for participating in the Chinese competition are the same reasons you stream on afreeca.
Savior: If anyone was interviweing me, their first question would definitely be why I didn't just stop, why did I have to stream on afreeca. There's many reasons, some of them private, but I can tell you how I think about this. Every since I was punished and branded, it is very hard to look at other people, causing me to become isolated and anti-social. I often had to take sleeping pills to fall asleep. But I couldn't keep going like this or it would be disaster. I had to earn money, but since I was part of the scandal, I didn't have to guts to even consider finding a job. But streaming on afreeca allows me to stay at home and is the best way for me to make money.
Q: Is making money your main goal?
Savior: Now it's that way, but back then I wasn't thinking about making money. I didn't want them to reveal my identity, but people still found out. I didn't even use a camera in the beginning, but slowly changed. As long as I'm determined, I can stream daily, but now I don't even think about it, just stream. I wasn't sure how long I was going to stream for, so I looked for other opportunities. At first, I just wanted to chat in stream, just to feel better about myself. I spent a year inside, so during this time, streaming really helped me recover. I think that streaming was a necessary step because it gave a chance to communicate with the outside world.
Q: I heard that if you saw anything that mentioned "matchfixing", you would kick that person out of the chat room. Can this kind of behavior foster open communication?
Savior: You didn't see the stream, so you would say something like that. Around one and a half to two years ago, I've had a few people mention this topic. But most people just watch the stream. After a while, I didn't really care too much. Even if these people lost hope in me or hate me, at least they watch my stream. If you say anything about me, whatever. But if you say bad things about my parents, I told that this is unacceptable. If I encounter anything like this in the future, I will definitely confront the person.
Part 4: He's very sorry to his close friends, regrets his actions back then.
Q: Do you regret not doing other things instead of matchfixing?
Savior: I definitely regret it. Honestly.
Q: A lot of people say that you have "thick skin"
Savior: I don't want to be hated, but since it's already happened, I just have to deal with it.
Q: After this interview, do you have anything to say?
Savior: Because of me and this matchfixing scandal, the world of esports was engulfed in chaos. I'm really sorry for that. I know that my actions hurt other players and fans. So much time has passed allowing me to reflect on this incident. I want to say that I don't want to try to change people's view of me through this interview. I can only say I broke the rules, and have to keep apologizing and feeling regret.
He has this thousand yard stare and it only adds to how emotionally charged this interview is. But he is right, the savior legacy is forever corrupted.
Ma Bonjwa will always be Ma Bonjwa, the 2nd most dominant player in the history of the greatest RTS, haters be damned.
Although it's always funny to go on TL and see the reactions of people who are too young to have watched him play in his prime, spew such bile and vitriol. Not all of them, but nevertheless....
Thanks for the translation. I honestly think Saviour was punished far too severely and I don't fully understand why the match fixing scandal caused so much damage in the first place. If all sports were to shut down that had match fixing somehow involved then there wouldn't be any sports in the world.
If anyone should've been punished it should've been the gambling sites, the players just did what they did because they wanted and needed money. People like UpMagic for instance wasn't exactly making the most money in the world and he wasn't the best player. It was a tough life back then and maybe even now for progamers in KeSPA houses so I empathise why they did what they did. I know this is controversial to feel like this, but I hope they can all one day return to the game they loved if they want to and I hope saviour can once again participate in tournaments.
Man this is incredibly sad. He probably can't even look for a normal job because these fukin "netizens" follow him around and will always hang "match-fixer" over him. I'm happy the Chinese scene is more tolerant and embrace sAviOr as someone with incredible talent.
I'm surprised that this is the first real savior interview since the scandal. Come to think of it, there never really was one.
I'm torn here. Savior did shit. He did bad shit. He might not have known it was this bad but he knew it was bad.
He feels sorry, and I genuinely believe that he regrets his actions.
I don't think he should be allowed to play competitively, but I do believe he should be able to make a living off of something. Considering how crappy his job prospects would be with his reputation, I think streaming would be something people are okay with him doing.
김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
As for Savior .. dude needs to just realize that he needs to leave everything Starcraft related if he ever wants to find peace. Get the money he's saved up from all his donations and shit, and just get out of the country, start a new life. Dude complains about how people still harass him about the matchfixing scandal, when he keeps shamelessly playing, streaming and competing in the game that he destroyed for more money .. give me a break jesus.
Savior: I never participated in matchfixing, but most people don't really care about this fact.
????
Q: Wait, so you didn't matchfix that game?
Savior: Even though my salary was cut by a lot, I still got a lot of money from sponsors. Even though it was one match, I still wanted to win. From December 2009, I didn't go out much, only slept around 4-5 hours, and then trained. It was a tough time in my progamer career. For two months, I seriously considered retiring, so I decided to play my best before then. It's hard for me to justify that match was legitimate. Other people didn't believe me, so I felt even worse. Even later, no one believed me, but I want to prove that that match was just another match. Even though no one really cares, it still matters to me. It really hurts when people mistakenly label it as matchfixing.
What about this game? Imho Savior is just greedy and a liar.
I'm sure he's sorry and it sucks for him to be hated that much, but I'll never forgive/believe him unless he can either provide proof or admit that he matchfixed. I honestly can't feel sorry for a liar. Maybe he does speak the truth, however I don't believe him and it seems to me Koreans do not believe him either. I think that's the biggest reason why he will remain hated and unforgiven.
On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote: 김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
As for Savior .. dude needs to just realize that he needs to leave everything Starcraft related if he ever wants to find peace. Get the money he's saved up from all his donations and shit, and just get out of the country, start a new life. Dude complains about how people still harass him about the matchfixing scandal, when he keeps shamelessly playing, streaming and competing in the game that he destroyed for more money .. give me a break jesus.
Could you provide a source on Effort getting a shit contract simply because of his looks? I thought he looked unique, cool, badass even, but not ugly. I know a lot of people on TL called him an alien/hawk. I think both Flash and Stork - for example - are uglier than Effort.
I totally agree (even if he speaks the truth). It's the best thing for him to do.
The consequences sAviOr has endured, both legal and social, are suffient. Anything additional would just be unusually cruel. Having a herd of fanatics going around harassing your family and prospective employers for years is far harsher than anyone should be subjected to.
meh i know what he did was morally reprehensible and contributed to taking down a small industry but expecting him to go into self imposed exile for it is beyond ridiculous and symptomatic of all those blood hungry pitchfork wielding... not so nice/fair people who are after him.
its just that with the matchfixing scandal is basically used as a fake excuse to off players without having to state the actual reasons. effort retired the first time because of cost cutting measures that impacted his contract salary and underhanded negotiation tactics, effort was offed the 2nd time because of poor sc2 performance, but coach park use the excuse of matchfixing to off him.
I don't believe him in the slightest when he says he never personally matchfixed in any of his games. As he said, I'm certainly not going to be changing my opinion on him. He's done enough damage already, he and the rest of us should just forget and move on with our lives.
Interesting read for sure! Didn't really follow Starcraft back then, but even I know about it. Kinda funny he was surprised that people outside of Korea knew. Does he still stream on Afreeca now?
lmao why do you think CJ would try to cut their hottest player as a "cost cutting measure"? It's because he was ugly and not marketable to the masses in the same way Savior and Iris were. Maybe it's not as explicitly stated in that post like it is with Britney, but it sure as hell is heavily implied.
Also, Flash isn't really ugly, just kinda average .. Stork was definitely pretty fugz for a while, but goddamn did he clean up nicely. Maybe it's different to a westerner's perspective.
its almost mid 2015...savior is still content with playing BW for his viewers reaching top of the fish ladder, other afreeca streamers dont give much of a damn about him anymore, the korean bw scene continues its revival with more tourneys, the world keeps spinning, greed and bribery ensures that the illegal gambling circles and sites continue to operate with impunity, blatant matchfixing continues on in other sports...
why are you still hating again?
On April 29 2015 03:36 ArvickHero wrote: lmao why do you think CJ would try to cut their hottest player as a "cost cutting measure"? It's because he was ugly and not marketable to the masses in the same way Savior and Iris were. Maybe it's not as explicitly stated in that post like it is with Britney, but it sure as hell is heavily implied.
Also, Flash isn't really ugly, just kinda average .. Stork was definitely pretty fugz for a while, but goddamn did he clean up nicely. Maybe it's different to a westerner's perspective.
did you even read, cj was not intentionally trying to off effort first time round, just trying to cut his salary due to cost cutting thanks to the matchfixing scandal earlier PLUS the emergence of sc2. it just backfired on them and they probably let him since its his wish and sc2 signifies a fresh start anyway.
and LOL flash is one ugly dude in his younger years, if it wasnt for his superior raw talent kt would have offed him long ago
On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote: 김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
As for Savior .. dude needs to just realize that he needs to leave everything Starcraft related if he ever wants to find peace. Get the money he's saved up from all his donations and shit, and just get out of the country, start a new life. Dude complains about how people still harass him about the matchfixing scandal, when he keeps shamelessly playing, streaming and competing in the game that he destroyed for more money .. give me a break jesus.
Could you provide a source on Effort getting a shit contract simply because of his looks? I thought he looked unique, cool, badass even, but not ugly. I know a lot of people on TL called him an alien/hawk. I think both Flash and Stork - for example - are uglier than Effort.
I totally agree (even if he speaks the truth). It's the best thing for him to do.
Effort by Korean general facial style, is considered ugly, so no suprise he got a shit contract from CJ as the part of CJ that runs the Starcraft team is the Entertainment branch, who for marketing uses really good looking models/actors/actresses/kpop stars so they couldn't really use a guy like Effort for marketing and for them the starcraft team is all about marketing and not achievement based.
On April 29 2015 03:36 ArvickHero wrote: lmao why do you think CJ would try to cut their hottest player as a "cost cutting measure"? It's because he was ugly and not marketable to the masses in the same way Savior and Iris were. Maybe it's not as explicitly stated in that post like it is with Britney, but it sure as hell is heavily implied.
Also, Flash isn't really ugly, just kinda average .. Stork was definitely pretty fugz for a while, but goddamn did he clean up nicely. Maybe it's different to a westerner's perspective.
It's funny how this is even a topic. This sort of thing is done all around the world behind closed doors, but it almost feels like Korea doesn't care about concealing their motivations. You see this in a lot k-pop where within the most popular groups the songs tend to be very repetitive and clearly lack artistic substances. The west does it too with most popular artists (where characters for artists like rihanna, taylor swift, etc are manufactured by producers/executives), but they try to conceal it at least.
On a more serious note, its a real shame that this is the case. I think Korea is really moving past these sort of things though from what I can tell (at least in recent times with more exposure to western audiences/general education)
For me, it is hard to hate Savior. The first time I ever watched StarCraft was during Blizzcon 2008. I grew up on Warcraft 3, but after watching Savior win Blizzcon 08' I went out to a Wal-Mart late that night and bought the StarCraft: Battle Chest. From there I discovered TeamLiquid and afreecaTV.
did you even read my first post, I said that he was being a shit contract because of his looks. CJ undercutting negotiations and offering a shitty contract is directly because of Effort being ugly and not marketable, which led to his retirement.
On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote: 김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
As for Savior .. dude needs to just realize that he needs to leave everything Starcraft related if he ever wants to find peace. Get the money he's saved up from all his donations and shit, and just get out of the country, start a new life. Dude complains about how people still harass him about the matchfixing scandal, when he keeps shamelessly playing, streaming and competing in the game that he destroyed for more money .. give me a break jesus.
Could you provide a source on Effort getting a shit contract simply because of his looks? I thought he looked unique, cool, badass even, but not ugly. I know a lot of people on TL called him an alien/hawk. I think both Flash and Stork - for example - are uglier than Effort.
I totally agree (even if he speaks the truth). It's the best thing for him to do.
Effort by Korean general facial style, is considered ugly, so no suprise he got a shit contract from CJ as the part of CJ that runs the Starcraft team is the Entertainment branch, who for marketing uses really good looking models/actors/actresses/kpop stars so they couldn't really use a guy like Effort for marketing and for them the starcraft team is all about marketing and not achievement based.
thats not a source.
oh and insinuating cj is only about looks, what about the other players then beside savior? they arent exactly kpop looks either. and unlike effort they have not exactly won the osl finals over flash, only look matter, yeah.
On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote: 김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
As for Savior .. dude needs to just realize that he needs to leave everything Starcraft related if he ever wants to find peace. Get the money he's saved up from all his donations and shit, and just get out of the country, start a new life. Dude complains about how people still harass him about the matchfixing scandal, when he keeps shamelessly playing, streaming and competing in the game that he destroyed for more money .. give me a break jesus.
Could you provide a source on Effort getting a shit contract simply because of his looks? I thought he looked unique, cool, badass even, but not ugly. I know a lot of people on TL called him an alien/hawk. I think both Flash and Stork - for example - are uglier than Effort.
I totally agree (even if he speaks the truth). It's the best thing for him to do.
Effort by Korean general facial style, is considered ugly, so no suprise he got a shit contract from CJ as the part of CJ that runs the Starcraft team is the Entertainment branch, who for marketing uses really good looking models/actors/actresses/kpop stars so they couldn't really use a guy like Effort for marketing and for them the starcraft team is all about marketing and not achievement based.
thats not a source.
oh and insinuating cj is only about looks, what about the other players then beside savior? they arent exactly kpop looks either. and unlike effort they have not exactly won the osl finals over flash, only look matter, yeah.
I mean a perfect example is their current ace cj herO. He is a very good looking guy and has the sort of "kpop personality" that you would expect from an organization like cj entus. This sort of thing is no accident
On April 29 2015 03:54 ArvickHero wrote: did you even read my first post, I said that he was being a shit contract because of his looks. CJ undercutting negotiations and offering a shitty contract is directly because of Effort being ugly and not marketable, which led to his retirement.
Yeah... the bottom line is the people who should matter most to us are not the gamblers, the business institutions that run the teams, but it is the players.
savior is an amazing player. Stop being overly dramatic about him single handedly destroying bw when matchfixing and gambling is present in all areas of competition. You move on. You look at the present and what you want for the future. He's playing bw because that's his primary game that he has played in his life, and he's fucking good at it. Don't watch him if you don't like him but don't call it "shameless" that he streams for money when that's what everyone else is doing.
On April 29 2015 03:54 ArvickHero wrote: did you even read my first post, I said that he was being a shit contract because of his looks. CJ undercutting negotiations and offering a shitty contract is directly because of Effort being ugly and not marketable, which led to his retirement.
Man they had JD at a B! I'm not really a woman but he seems like a pretty good looking guy.
ya I'd put him up to B+ or A- myself, but he was also sporting a very strange haircut at the time I think .. what confuses me the most about that ranking is how Thezerg wasnt F-
On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote: 김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
As for Savior .. dude needs to just realize that he needs to leave everything Starcraft related if he ever wants to find peace. Get the money he's saved up from all his donations and shit, and just get out of the country, start a new life. Dude complains about how people still harass him about the matchfixing scandal, when he keeps shamelessly playing, streaming and competing in the game that he destroyed for more money .. give me a break jesus.
Hwasin played in a korean tournament recently for christ sakes, and hardly anyone on this site said boo. People are starting to forgive and move on but savior has to flee his fucking country of birth? Give me a break, jesus. If the social stigma is really so great Savior feels he cant leave the house much or find another job, thats incredibly sad. Obviously nothing he did actually deserves that kind of reaction. He shouldnt have to flee his home country and leave his friends/family behind on top of all the rest.
On April 29 2015 03:59 Deathstar wrote: Yeah... the bottom line is the people who should matter most to us are not the gamblers, the business institutions that run the teams, but it is the players.
savior is an amazing player. Stop being overly dramatic about him single handedly destroying bw when matchfixing and gambling is present in all areas of competition. You move on. You look at the present and what you want for the future. He's playing bw because that's his primary game that he has played in his life, and he's fucking good at it. Don't watch him if you don't like him but don't call it "shameless" that he streams for money when that's what everyone else is doing.
It's not only that, but people ignore the fact there were many other reasons at that point in time for the "decline" of Broodwar and some of that blame can be put on SC2. Sure it didn't take off, but it certainly had an effect on sponsors who wanted the "best" product (in this case new) to start advertising as they were hoping it would bring in more viewers.
We of course now know that it didn't, but as I said previously, if match fixing was the thing that killed BW, it would've killed all sports everywhere. Match fixing exists in everything, even chess. It's just something that naturally happens in places that allow gambling and sports to co-exist. You shouldn't blame the players for the death (lol) of BW. They had very little to do with any of it. Broodwar never even really died, it's just KeSPA moved forwarrd and went on with SC2 as the new game and then League of Legends. OGN is even casting Broodwar tournaments again, so if anything Broodwar never truely died.
Saying Broodwar died reminds me very much of IGN and a bunch of other people claiming PC gaming was dead and continuing to spout it for the past decade or so. PC gaming never went anywhere and now it's bigger than ever.
EDIT: That old TL progamer beauty ranking. How was Iris and NaDa so damn low o_O
Savior: Even though my salary was cut by a lot, I still got a lot of money from sponsors. Even though it was one match, I still wanted to win. From December 2009, I didn't go out much, only slept around 4-5 hours, and then trained. It was a tough time in my progamer career. For two months, I seriously considered retiring, so I decided to play my best before then. It's hard for me to justify that match was legitimate. Other people didn't believe me, so I felt even worse. Even later, no one believed me, but I want to prove that that match was just another match. Even though no one really cares, it still matters to me. It really hurts when people mistakenly label it as matchfixing.
What about this game? Imho Savior is just greedy and a liar.
I'm sure he's sorry and it sucks for him to be hated that much, but I'll never forgive/believe him unless he can either provide proof or admit that he matchfixed. I honestly can't feel sorry for a liar. Maybe he does speak the truth, however I don't believe him and it seems to me Koreans do not believe him either. I think that's the biggest reason why he will remain hated and unforgiven.
It is literally impossible to prove that you didn't throw a match.
For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
Savior: I never participated in matchfixing, but most people don't really care about this fact.
????
Q: Wait, so you didn't matchfix that game?
Savior: Even though my salary was cut by a lot, I still got a lot of money from sponsors. Even though it was one match, I still wanted to win. From December 2009, I didn't go out much, only slept around 4-5 hours, and then trained. It was a tough time in my progamer career. For two months, I seriously considered retiring, so I decided to play my best before then. It's hard for me to justify that match was legitimate. Other people didn't believe me, so I felt even worse. Even later, no one believed me, but I want to prove that that match was just another match. Even though no one really cares, it still matters to me. It really hurts when people mistakenly label it as matchfixing.
What about this game? Imho Savior is just greedy and a liar.
I'm sure he's sorry and it sucks for him to be hated that much, but I'll never forgive/believe him unless he can either provide proof or admit that he matchfixed. I honestly can't feel sorry for a liar. Maybe he does speak the truth, however I don't believe him and it seems to me Koreans do not believe him either. I think that's the biggest reason why he will remain hated and unforgiven.
It is literally impossible to prove that you didn't throw a match.
AFAIK people bet on match lengths now, so even the people who won could be match fixing with a specific strategy (not finishing the game when they could by playing "safe", doing an all in not caring about win or lose, etc) .
Also, I don't think anyone reading this interview is going to change their opinion of me.
Oh it did, sadly it did.
This is terrible PR. In my head he was all buisness with the triads and original G and didn't give a hoot. Who is this whiny dude, that sold ESPORTS short for a measly 1.9k and tries to tell us that despite his constant display of genius does not know how to get into illegal betting.
On April 29 2015 01:17 Crunchums wrote: i'm glad that he's at least like "yeah i did some stuff" instead of being like "i am 100% innocent!!"
thanks for the translation
Meh, that's very human behavior: if you've done a number of bad things only admit to the ones that have been proven and then still complain about being prosecuted. Cyclists that were caught with doping used to say: "oh, but I only tried it late in my career after I was coerced and it didn't help me at all" in order to save their legacy, but most of the time they doped their entire careers anyway. Now Savior says: "you can't prove I threw that game" and he acts like the victim because people don't believe him, as if he's some tragic figure. You shouldn't give cheaters the benefit of the doubt imo, I wouldn't trust him no matter how emotionally charged some people think the interview might be.
Also, I don't think anyone reading this interview is going to change their opinion of me.
Oh it did, sadly it did.
This is terrible PR. In my head he was all buisness with the triads and original G and didn't give a hoot. Who is this whiny dude, that sold ESPORTS short for a measly 1.9k and tries to tell us that despite his constant display of genius does not know how to get into illegal betting.
Srsly *s/madface*
to me it sounds like he's saying "i don't know how to to get into illegal betting sites because i never even tried it" not like "i don't know how to get into illegal betting sites even though i've been actively working towards that for a long time"
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
Are you of the opinion that criminals cannot be rehabilitated? I know it's somewhat of a crazy comparison to make, but do you think that if a criminal, which is what Saviour and co were branded can never learn from their mistakes? You forget that most of the people involved in the match fixing were very young, many of them suffering career wise and they got coerced into making money the easy way, which is something they had very little of. Not everyone lived like Flash with a swanky contract and good salary, many of the players like UpMagic were very middle of the road and wanted to somehow improve their lives. They took the easy way out sure, but do you honestly think by now they haven't learnt from their mistakes?
I'm happy Hwasin is playing again. I don't hold crimes against people much like I wouldn't hold this against people like him. The match fixing wasn't the only thing that "killed" Broodwar and neither should it be seen that way. If they want to play the game again competitively I think we should welcome them back. Holding grudges helps nobody.
This one is slightly closer to the original. Thanks to both translators though. I don't think anyone is necessarily being misled in this translation but there are certain nuances that the lemmata one captures better.
*Edit: also going to note that the original Fomos article was from December 2013... yeah
I just happen to know a guy who pays thousands of dollars for you to lose games. I'm not sure if you're interested, but here's his contact information. Don't ask me how I met him; I don't even know how to get to those gambling sites because I can't figure out how to use google.kr
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
Are you of the opinion that criminals cannot be rehabilitated? I know it's somewhat of a crazy comparison to make, but do you think that if a criminal, which is what Saviour and co were branded can never learn from their mistakes? You forget that most of the people involved in the match fixing were very young, many of them suffering career wise and they got coerced into making money the easy way, which is something they had very little of. Not everyone lived like Flash with a swanky contract and good salary, many of the players like UpMagic were very middle of the road and wanted to somehow improve their lives. They took the easy way out sure, but do you honestly think by now they haven't learnt from their mistakes?
I'm happy Hwasin is playing again. I don't hold crimes against people much like I wouldn't hold this against people like him. The match fixing wasn't the only thing that "killed" Broodwar and neither should it be seen that way. If they want to play the game again competitively I think we should welcome them back. Holding grudges helps nobody.
Yes criminals can be rehabilitated, but rehabilitation doesn't necessarily mean being accepted back into their old lives. A pilot who gets caught trying to fly drunk doesn't get to work as a pilot again, and a match fixer doesn't get to play their sport again. It's harsh, but that's life.
It's like cheating on a spouse and expecting them to just take you back a year later because 'you've changed', only a fool would buy that.
If they were really learning from their mistakes, they'd be making a new life for themselves. And then maybe if like ten, twenty years later they wanted to play again I'd personally be willing to consider. But coming back barely a year, two years, later and acting like match fixing is something you can just forgive and forget, I don't agree with that. Match fixing alongside doping is the absolute worst thing a sportsman can do, it doesn't just affect their own record, it turns their entire sport into a farce.
i wish he'd return, give him a second chance. sadly many people care more about pointing fingers and witch hunting rather than forgiving or understanding. like some other guy said, he attacked his own muta and therefore 100% matchfixer...yet, i can't even count how many times i've attacked my own unit.
sounds like he was at the wrong place at the wrong time, acting based on ignorance. still, whats done is done and there are consequences for any action regardless of intention, and it can happen to anyone, even to a saint of a person anywhere in the world.
I'd love to check out his stream sometime, and see what all the hype's about. I feel like way too much focus gets placed on things that are not games of starcraft, and I just want to see some great games.
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
Are you of the opinion that criminals cannot be rehabilitated? I know it's somewhat of a crazy comparison to make, but do you think that if a criminal, which is what Saviour and co were branded can never learn from their mistakes? You forget that most of the people involved in the match fixing were very young, many of them suffering career wise and they got coerced into making money the easy way, which is something they had very little of. Not everyone lived like Flash with a swanky contract and good salary, many of the players like UpMagic were very middle of the road and wanted to somehow improve their lives. They took the easy way out sure, but do you honestly think by now they haven't learnt from their mistakes?
I'm happy Hwasin is playing again. I don't hold crimes against people much like I wouldn't hold this against people like him. The match fixing wasn't the only thing that "killed" Broodwar and neither should it be seen that way. If they want to play the game again competitively I think we should welcome them back. Holding grudges helps nobody.
Yes criminals can be rehabilitated, but rehabilitation doesn't necessarily mean being accepted back into their old lives. A pilot who gets caught trying to fly drunk doesn't get to work as a pilot again, and a match fixer doesn't get to play their sport again. It's harsh, but that's life.
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
-the scene actually wasnt thriving. People dont remember or they dont recall, but viewership reached its peak in 2006 and was slowly dropping off ever since. sc2, match fixing, and a general decline all did damage to the scene.
-Its not unreasonable to want match fixers not to play in actual tournies as their credibility is obviously in question, but your assertion that he has to be a greedy lazy fuck to want to earn an income from bw is entirely arbitrary. Theres not one single logical or emotional reason to assume genuine remorse is incompatible with offering a stream and a donation option, theres not even a reason to assume hes lazy by doing this. It earns him better money than the alternatives. He doesnt need to wear a hair shirt and flagellate himself. Streaming is the best option for his life and so he does it.
Is it just me or did that interview really come off disingenuous. It felt like he had the way he wanted to paint things the moment shit blew up and was sad that no one got to ask him so he could downplay certain parts and then ignore the rest.
I'm quite surprised how hard he's downplaying some stuff and feigning ignorance on others.
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
Are you of the opinion that criminals cannot be rehabilitated? I know it's somewhat of a crazy comparison to make, but do you think that if a criminal, which is what Saviour and co were branded can never learn from their mistakes? You forget that most of the people involved in the match fixing were very young, many of them suffering career wise and they got coerced into making money the easy way, which is something they had very little of. Not everyone lived like Flash with a swanky contract and good salary, many of the players like UpMagic were very middle of the road and wanted to somehow improve their lives. They took the easy way out sure, but do you honestly think by now they haven't learnt from their mistakes?
I'm happy Hwasin is playing again. I don't hold crimes against people much like I wouldn't hold this against people like him. The match fixing wasn't the only thing that "killed" Broodwar and neither should it be seen that way. If they want to play the game again competitively I think we should welcome them back. Holding grudges helps nobody.
Yes criminals can be rehabilitated, but rehabilitation doesn't necessarily mean being accepted back into their old lives. A pilot who gets caught trying to fly drunk doesn't get to work as a pilot again, and a match fixer doesn't get to play their sport again. It's harsh, but that's life.
It's like cheating on a spouse and expecting them to just take you back a year later because 'you've changed', only a fool would buy that.
If they were really learning from their mistakes, they'd be making a new life for themselves. And then maybe if like ten, twenty years later they wanted to play again I'd personally be willing to consider. But coming back barely a year, two years, later and acting like match fixing is something you can just forgive and forget, I don't agree with that. Match fixing alongside doping is the absolute worst thing a sportsman can do, it doesn't just affect their own record, it turns their entire sport into a farce.
a year or two later? It's been 5 years now. What difference is 5-20 years other than time. It's beyond the point of being a punishment now, much like insanely long prison sentances for pety crimes. It serves no purpose, he's lived with what he's done and been aptly punished.
can't help but feeling sorry for savior with all the irrational hate he's getting and it seems like it's even a lot worse in korea. just getting compared to people who put hundreds of other people's lives in danger by drinking and flying, while what he did is bad it is nowhere near that.
I cheered for this guy through thick and thin and I loved that team that he was a part of. I remember sitting in a shitty China webcafe with no bandwidth having my friend IRC chat me his matches as they aired. I remember making CJ highlight videos, like when Skyhigh reverse all-killed Jaedong and his team in Proleague playoffs. My favorite memory of BW was CJ Effort reverse 0-2 to 3-2 sweeping Flash in the OSL Finals. I was at a TL meetup and everyone went to sleep because it was "over" and I was the only guy awake at 5am hoping he pulled it out.
Brood War produced some of the most amazing memories for me and got me into ESPORTS, and Savior was instrumental to destroying that scene and crushing CJ's awesome coach and his spirit.
I personally dont think his legacy is corrupted. If you have to sit there and mention how he "match-fixed" when savior comes into a conversation I would go as far to say you are worse than savior. Sure he made a mistake that is no doubt. However THAT ALONE DOES NOT change the fact that he was one of the best Zergs if not THE BEST of his time. Match-fixing or not I believe him. Savior and Nada were the two single pros that got me interested in starcraft. Best matches I have ever watched.
On April 29 2015 09:15 Hot_Bid wrote: I cheered for this guy through thick and thin and I loved that team that he was a part of. I remember sitting in a shitty China webcafe with no bandwidth having my friend IRC chat me his matches as they aired. I remember making CJ highlight videos, like when Skyhigh reverse all-killed Jaedong and his team in Proleague playoffs. My favorite memory of BW was CJ Effort reverse 0-2 to 3-2 sweeping Flash in the OSL Finals. I was at a TL meetup and everyone went to sleep because it was "over" and I was the only guy awake at 5am hoping he pulled it out.
Brood War produced some of the most amazing memories for me and got me into ESPORTS, and Savior was instrumental to destroying that scene and crushing CJ's awesome coach and his spirit.
So yeah, FUCK Savior. Fuck him. I wish him failure in whatever he does in the future if its related in any way to competitive video games.
Edit: didn't read the interview
Edit2: read interview, he still maintains that he NEVER matchfixed??? not even a "sorry"?? fuck him even harder
he does apologize and he also says he apologized in that interview that never got published
"Of course it would be that I'm extremely sorry, not just to the other players, but also the people who worked for CJ as well. It's even worse for my coach, who had a lot of trust me."
"Because of me and this matchfixing scandal, the world of esports was engulfed in chaos. I'm really sorry for that. I know that my actions hurt other players and fans. So much time has passed allowing me to reflect on this incident. I want to say that I don't want to try to change people's view of me through this interview. I can only say I broke the rules, and have to keep apologizing and feeling regret."
way to reading comprehension
and apparently he never did matchfix (as in throw games), he encouraged and helped other people to do it. that's pretty much just as bad but you can't expect him to admit to something he didn't do.
You can find my quote in the hwasin interview thread and I am sticking to my word here. Savior has finally had an apologetic interview and i believe his remorse. It may not mean much but I would like to say publicly, I forgive you Savior.
this interview seems rather dishonest to me. Pretending not to know how to get into betting sites... never matchfixed himself.. me he is talking himself out of it way to much. But i got the impression, the guy really suffers. So while i can't and won't never forgive and forget, personally i wish him some luck (although: not too much)
Perhaps im blindsighted by the *epic stare into nothing sadface* propaganda photos lol, i dunno. Very interesting article though.
On April 29 2015 09:15 Hot_Bid wrote: Edit2: read interview, he still maintains that he NEVER matchfixed??? not even a "sorry"?? fuck him even harder
Just curious, do you feel this way because there exist matches that you think without a doubt were fixed, or because you think it's just incredibly unlikely that he would not have fixed any of his games if he was already involved with fixing other player's games?
I don't know, from my perspective, it really doesn't seem that outrageous to believe him when he says that he never threw a game (not to downplay any of the things that he was confirmed to have done).
On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote: 김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
As for Savior .. dude needs to just realize that he needs to leave everything Starcraft related if he ever wants to find peace. Get the money he's saved up from all his donations and shit, and just get out of the country, start a new life. Dude complains about how people still harass him about the matchfixing scandal, when he keeps shamelessly playing, streaming and competing in the game that he destroyed for more money .. give me a break jesus.
Could you provide a source on Effort getting a shit contract simply because of his looks? I thought he looked unique, cool, badass even, but not ugly. I know a lot of people on TL called him an alien/hawk.
I think both Flash and Stork - for example - are uglier than Effort.
Really? C'mon, dude. Effort is cool as ice, but he is weird-looking.
On April 29 2015 09:58 Rukis wrote: I personally dont think his legacy is corrupted. If you have to sit there and mention how he "match-fixed" when savior comes into a conversation I would go as far to say you are worse than savior.
On April 29 2015 10:14 Cele wrote: Perhaps im blindsighted by the *epic stare into nothing sadface* propaganda photos lol, i dunno. Very interesting article though.
lol hmm. Interesting point you made here about the pics
On April 29 2015 10:14 Cele wrote: Perhaps im blindsighted by the *epic stare into nothing sadface* propaganda photos lol, i dunno. Very interesting article though.
lol hmm. Interesting point you made here about the pics
yeah i was feeling for savior quite a bit when i read the article. However, replies made me aware that he is actually acting quite deceptive in his answers. Given that, it could very well be the case, that the photos were picked specifically to stir sentiments of pity in the reader, though i would'nt claim that, i have no proof at all and we're unable to get any.
this thread is a travesty. that it remains open despite policy is a walking performative contradiction. i have nothing but utter disdain for anyone posting in support of this trash. as for this trash, I have nothing at all to feel for you; leave.
On April 29 2015 10:14 Cele wrote: Perhaps im blindsighted by the *epic stare into nothing sadface* propaganda photos lol, i dunno. Very interesting article though.
lol hmm. Interesting point you made here about the pics
yeah i was feeling for savior quite a bit when i read the article. However, replies made me aware that he is actually acting quite deceptive in his answers. Given that, it could very well be the case, that the photos were picked specifically to stir sentiments of pity in the reader, though i would'nt claim that, i have no proof at all and we're unable to get any.
Yeah, his answers seem like an attempt to downplay his involvement. He says that he wasn't involved in match fixing and then goes onto say that he was the middle man? Can't forget these games:
lol, why do people not get it. If a child molestor does time and is released would you be ok with him/her working at daycare center? I understand a lot of these guys were kids when this happened and most of them have pressure/monetary reasons for doing it and I forgive them (except Savior and Justin these two are utter trash). I'd totally buy clothes from hwasin's web store but I'd really like it if he wasn't streaming BW.
why is this thread even still open? its an interview from 2013 that's already been translated and discussed previously.
On April 29 2015 11:37 jinyung2 wrote: lol, why do people not get it. If a child molestor does time and is released would you be ok with him/her working at daycare center? I understand a lot of these guys were kids when this happened and most of them have pressure/monetary reasons for doing it and I forgive them (except Savior and Justin these two are utter trash). I'd totally buy clothes from hwasin's web store but I'd really like it if he wasn't streaming BW.
why is this thread even still open? its an interview from 2013 that's already been translated and discussed previously.
sAviOr did some fucked up stuff in the StarCraft scene but comparing matchfixing to child molestation is not even remotely in the same league. Yeah he's pretty shady and fucked up the scene but in no way in hell is he as bad (or even comes close) to a child abuser. That is incredibly fucked up to compare him to that.
I say let him be. He's not hurting anyone else other than himself playing StarCraft. If he overcomes his situation then all the best to him. I highly doubt he's going to screw up any pro-game scene anytime soon.
On April 29 2015 09:15 Hot_Bid wrote: I cheered for this guy through thick and thin and I loved that team that he was a part of. I remember sitting in a shitty China webcafe with no bandwidth having my friend IRC chat me his matches as they aired. I remember making CJ highlight videos, like when Skyhigh reverse all-killed Jaedong and his team in Proleague playoffs. My favorite memory of BW was CJ Effort reverse 0-2 to 3-2 sweeping Flash in the OSL Finals. I was at a TL meetup and everyone went to sleep because it was "over" and I was the only guy awake at 5am hoping he pulled it out.
Brood War produced some of the most amazing memories for me and got me into ESPORTS, and Savior was instrumental to destroying that scene and crushing CJ's awesome coach and his spirit.
So yeah, FUCK Savior. Fuck him. I wish him failure in whatever he does in the future if its related in any way to competitive video games.
Edit: didn't read the interview
Edit2: read interview, he still maintains that he NEVER matchfixed??? not even a "sorry"?? fuck him even harder
he does apologize and he also says he apologized in that interview that never got published
"Of course it would be that I'm extremely sorry, not just to the other players, but also the people who worked for CJ as well. It's even worse for my coach, who had a lot of trust me."
"Because of me and this matchfixing scandal, the world of esports was engulfed in chaos. I'm really sorry for that. I know that my actions hurt other players and fans. So much time has passed allowing me to reflect on this incident. I want to say that I don't want to try to change people's view of me through this interview. I can only say I broke the rules, and have to keep apologizing and feeling regret."
way to reading comprehension
and apparently he never did matchfix (as in throw games), he encouraged and helped other people to do it. that's pretty much just as bad but you can't expect him to admit to something he didn't do.
please, I watched every single one of Saviors games, the good ones, the bad ones, and the ones during the match fixing period.
you want me to believe he was involved with match fixing on every level and never match fixed himself? i watched those games i know what happened in them.
On April 29 2015 11:37 jinyung2 wrote: lol, why do people not get it. If a child molestor does time and is released would you be ok with him/her working at daycare center? I understand a lot of these guys were kids when this happened and most of them have pressure/monetary reasons for doing it and I forgive them (except Savior and Justin these two are utter trash). I'd totally buy clothes from hwasin's web store but I'd really like it if he wasn't streaming BW.
why is this thread even still open? its an interview from 2013 that's already been translated and discussed previously.
sAviOr did some fucked up stuff in the StarCraft scene but comparing matchfixing to child molestation is not even remotely in the same league. Yeah he's pretty shady and fucked up the scene but in no way in hell is he as bad (or even comes close) to a child abuser. That is incredibly fucked up to compare him to that.
I say let him be. He's not hurting anyone else other than himself playing StarCraft. If he overcomes his situation then all the best to him. I highly doubt he's going to screw up any pro-game scene anytime soon.
sigh if what you got out of that was im comparing matchfixing to child molestation then you've completely missed the point... its a fuckin analogy i mean cmon rofl
If he wants to play starcraft, fine. if he wants to stream it, fine. But if he expected not get hate and wants to complain about it, its like ?!?!?!?! what did you expect dude?!
That was a really interesting interview. I'm probably with the minority here, but I would love to see the guy get a second chance in SC2 to see what he could do (if he was actually interested). He's the reason I got really into BW, and I model my game after him to this day, because of his tactical prowess when he was successful.
He needs to make decision. Someone should ask him why he didn't switched into SC2 which is unrelated to KeSPA? Some foreign company could buy him and sponsor for sure. And the nightmare which occured because of BW would be over.
On April 29 2015 11:14 itsjustatank wrote: this thread is a travesty. that it remains open despite policy is a walking performative contradiction. i have nothing but utter disdain for anyone posting in support of this trash. as for this trash, I have nothing at all to feel for you; leave.
As controversial as it may be to say, banning sAviOr from ever competing and convicting him in court is a fair punishment. It seems there is always a bloodthirsty reaction to these sort of things to get some sort of vengance against the individual.
The truth is that his life has been ruined almost entirely since this incident, and we deserve to treat him with some humanity after his worthy punishment. He has been rightly banned from ever competing professionally (no one reasonable would debate this punishment), but perhaps we need to grow up too and see him as a person, too.
On April 29 2015 13:16 Alucen-Will- wrote: As controversial as it may be to say, banning sAviOr from ever competing and convicting him in court is a fair punishment. It seems there is always a bloodthirsty reaction to these sort of things to get some sort of vengance against the individual.
The truth is that his life has been ruined almost entirely since this incident, and we deserve to treat him with some humanity after his worthy punishment. He has been rightly banned from ever competing professionally (no one reasonable would debate this punishment), but perhaps we need to grow up too and see him as a person, too.
We are humans too, and humans make mistakes.
his life has been very good and filled with luxuries by abusing his fanbase.
On April 29 2015 13:16 Alucen-Will- wrote: As controversial as it may be to say, banning sAviOr from ever competing and convicting him in court is a fair punishment. It seems there is always a bloodthirsty reaction to these sort of things to get some sort of vengance against the individual.
The truth is that his life has been ruined almost entirely since this incident, and we deserve to treat him with some humanity after his worthy punishment. He has been rightly banned from ever competing professionally (no one reasonable would debate this punishment), but perhaps we need to grow up too and see him as a person, too.
We are humans too, and humans make mistakes.
his life has been very good and filled with luxuries by abusing his fanbase.
he gets fanbase to make many donation for luxury products on stream. if you are implying that it is hard life to be given everything you want you are fool
The 'source' linked is a Chinese website known for taking articles and translating them without permission (they've taken my interviews before) and also putting their watermark over others' pics LOL. But yeah, this is a FOMOS article from forever ago, as the OP points out.
I completely believe that Savior regrets his actions, but my belief stops there. And I have no sympathy for him. The amount of irreparable damage done to Brood War and Korean eSports entirely because of his selfish actions far outweighs any sympathy that might've been there. If he wants to move on, fine. If he wants to start a new life, sure.
But he shouldn't get to play the game he ruined for everyone.
I'm in the same boat. I can easily forgive him for his sins, but that doesn't mean he shouldnt suffer the consequences for his deeds. He has no business in the scene.
On April 29 2015 13:16 Alucen-Will- wrote: As controversial as it may be to say, banning sAviOr from ever competing and convicting him in court is a fair punishment. It seems there is always a bloodthirsty reaction to these sort of things to get some sort of vengance against the individual.
The truth is that his life has been ruined almost entirely since this incident, and we deserve to treat him with some humanity after his worthy punishment. He has been rightly banned from ever competing professionally (no one reasonable would debate this punishment), but perhaps we need to grow up too and see him as a person, too.
We are humans too, and humans make mistakes.
his life has been very good and filled with luxuries by abusing his fanbase.
it is clear you do not know truth
Did you read the interview?
don't buy the interview dude, its mostly bullshit.. one good example is when the questioner asks if he bans people for saying "matchfix" and he says he doesn't anymore, that's pure bullshit, If he was online right now and you typed anything even remotely close to matchfix (you can even type something like juventus LOL), you get banned.
he contradicts a lot of stuff and the reason he won't answer the questions about why he started streaming on afreeca is because his reasons are simply easy monetary gain. his motives for matchfixing were the same too probably. He wasn't in the same financial/family situation as someone like Hwasin who has said that the reason for accepting the matchfixing offers had to do with his family's financial situation being a struggle nor did he have pressure from his seniors like go.go did with Justin, Savior didn't have any of that. He grew up in a fairly wealthy family is a nice part of seoul. He even has celebrity and well known figures as friends. after the whole scandal and him getting off with such a lax punishment, he coulda done pretty much anything else. He wasn't in some kind of situation where if he doesn't have money he will be homeless on the streets. He didn't even have to do his mandatory military service because of his knee or some shit, so he could do what pretty much everyone else in his age group would be doing, studying and trying to get into school. but instead he chooses the easy way out and tries to victimize himself like he had no choice.
On April 29 2015 13:16 Alucen-Will- wrote: ....The truth is that his life has been ruined almost entirely since this incident.
if you seriously believe this you are writing yourself some kind of fiction novel...
On April 29 2015 14:02 jinyung2 wrote: He didn't even have to do his mandatory military service because of his knee or some shit,
wow in other conscription countries you would still have to do clerical work, how did he got off the hook so easily. its not like hes wheelchair bound
yeah even in korea, even if you have some kind of minor health issue you will be doing either public service work or some kind of clerical work. He walks just fine, he has pictures of him clubbing with his friend so he probably hops around just fine. I don't know how he got off but it's definitely shady.
Can someone explain why matchfixing destroyed bw so hard, but the infamous 322 of dota 2 did virtually no damage to the scene? Perhaps other factors like the onset of sc2 and pressure from blizzard played bigger factors in its demise than people give credit for.
On April 29 2015 16:16 tube wrote: Can someone explain why matchfixing destroyed bw so hard, but the infamous 322 of dota 2 did virtually no damage to the scene? Perhaps other factors like the onset of sc2 and pressure from blizzard played bigger factors in its demise than people give credit for.
not defending savior, btw
At the time BW was on the track of declining but is still the biggest game in Korea, the scandal cemented a lot of sponsors' mind to back out. It doesn't help that SC2 arrived just mere months later.
On April 29 2015 13:45 lestye wrote: I'm in the same boat. I can easily forgive him for his sins, but that doesn't mean he shouldnt suffer the consequences for his deeds. He has no business in the scene.
Yup. I forgive him in answer to his apology, but I do not think he should return. He caused the most damage and I'm not sure there is a healthy scenario where he is playing in premier leagues again.
Savior: Even though my salary was cut by a lot, I still got a lot of money from sponsors. Even though it was one match, I still wanted to win. From December 2009, I didn't go out much, only slept around 4-5 hours, and then trained. It was a tough time in my progamer career. For two months, I seriously considered retiring, so I decided to play my best before then. It's hard for me to justify that match was legitimate. Other people didn't believe me, so I felt even worse. Even later, no one believed me, but I want to prove that that match was just another match. Even though no one really cares, it still matters to me. It really hurts when people mistakenly label it as matchfixing.
What about this game? Imho Savior is just greedy and a liar.
I'm sure he's sorry and it sucks for him to be hated that much, but I'll never forgive/believe him unless he can either provide proof or admit that he matchfixed. I honestly can't feel sorry for a liar. Maybe he does speak the truth, however I don't believe him and it seems to me Koreans do not believe him either. I think that's the biggest reason why he will remain hated and unforgiven.
stop calling him a liar when you say yourself you're not sure whether or not he did it
On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote: 김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
As for Savior .. dude needs to just realize that he needs to leave everything Starcraft related if he ever wants to find peace. Get the money he's saved up from all his donations and shit, and just get out of the country, start a new life. Dude complains about how people still harass him about the matchfixing scandal, when he keeps shamelessly playing, streaming and competing in the game that he destroyed for more money .. give me a break jesus.
This is one of the most disgusting things I've read here. But I agree with you about Savior leaving everything related with BW, masses gonna eat him up alive.
People who didn't follow BW from the beginning till the Golden Age till the bonjwa age have no idea what greatness it was and how much of it was tainted by Savior's actions.
It's fine to forgive but not forget. He doesn't deserve to come back to the competitive scene.
I was never that much concerned with what Savior did than with how serious was the reaction to matchfixing in Korea. Every sport on this planet is corrupted in this way or another and it is naive to state the opposite. Back then Savior and the others were young and stupid, it does not excuse them but it in no way justifies how it was presented to the public. Why it was made public in the first place? It is clear that none of them was involved in anything serious. I believe that it was a horrible mistake to make it all go public and screw ppl's lives so badly.
On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote: 김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
As for Savior .. dude needs to just realize that he needs to leave everything Starcraft related if he ever wants to find peace. Get the money he's saved up from all his donations and shit, and just get out of the country, start a new life. Dude complains about how people still harass him about the matchfixing scandal, when he keeps shamelessly playing, streaming and competing in the game that he destroyed for more money .. give me a break jesus.
Completely agree. I really want people who make a mistake to find peace, we all makes mistakes. But he probably won't find peace staying in the same world (esport) and especially not in the exact same game..
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
ArvickHero, I don't know what is your problem but you're not a good person and I'd rather have a chat with a match fixer than sit with you at the same table.
On April 29 2015 09:15 Hot_Bid wrote: I cheered for this guy through thick and thin and I loved that team that he was a part of. I remember sitting in a shitty China webcafe with no bandwidth having my friend IRC chat me his matches as they aired. I remember making CJ highlight videos, like when Skyhigh reverse all-killed Jaedong and his team in Proleague playoffs. My favorite memory of BW was CJ Effort reverse 0-2 to 3-2 sweeping Flash in the OSL Finals. I was at a TL meetup and everyone went to sleep because it was "over" and I was the only guy awake at 5am hoping he pulled it out.
Brood War produced some of the most amazing memories for me and got me into ESPORTS, and Savior was instrumental to destroying that scene and crushing CJ's awesome coach and his spirit.
So yeah, FUCK Savior. Fuck him. I wish him failure in whatever he does in the future if its related in any way to competitive video games.
Edit: didn't read the interview
Edit2: read interview, he still maintains that he NEVER matchfixed??? not even a "sorry"?? fuck him even harder
Pretty much. I have ever since BW era in Korea and the upstart of BW through TL with the foreign TLS searched for a similar scene. It just isn't there. Imagine that BW scene with todays possibilites for streaming etc.
On April 29 2015 10:14 Cele wrote: Perhaps im blindsighted by the *epic stare into nothing sadface* propaganda photos lol, i dunno. Very interesting article though.
lol hmm. Interesting point you made here about the pics
yeah i was feeling for savior quite a bit when i read the article. However, replies made me aware that he is actually acting quite deceptive in his answers. Given that, it could very well be the case, that the photos were picked specifically to stir sentiments of pity in the reader, though i would'nt claim that, i have no proof at all and we're unable to get any.
Am I the only one who thinks Savior should continue with bw to revitalize the scene and that way redeem himself? give up the politics. more gg more skill.
On April 29 2015 18:04 letian wrote: I was never that much concerned with what Savior did than with how serious was the reaction to matchfixing in Korea. Every sport on this planet is corrupted in this way or another and it is naive to state the opposite. Back then Savior and the others were young and stupid, it does not excuse them but it in no way justifies how it was presented to the public. Why it was made public in the first place? It is clear that none of them was involved in anything serious. I believe that it was a horrible mistake to make it all go public and screw ppl's lives so badly.
I'm with you on this. I mean look at the biggest sport in the world. Football. The FA is one of the most corrupt organisations on the planet and that's made little to no bearing on how popular the sport is. The worlds biggest sponsors sponsor Football and that's not going to change any time soon.
The way this was brought forward and exposed was handled terribly. They could've dealt with it behind closed doors and nobody would've ever known and ever cared. Also please, the people claiming the match fixing drove the sponsors away... Can you please stop spouting that fallacy that has no evidence? The sponsors for Broodwar were already moving away from BW long before the match fixing started. You're just grabbing on to the stupid mistakes of young people and ignoring the bigger picture to I'm not sure, give yoursellf comfort or something. BW was on the decline for a long time and it wasn't going to last forever.
Sponsors wanted to move onto something new that they thought would recreate 2006-7 era BW popularity and at first they thought it might be SC2, but then it soon became League of Legends. Video game "sports" are not as far developed and dug in as real sports. No eSport is ever going to last forever, especially when you have a single organisation (KeSPA) who was doing everything in their power to stop anyone else really getting involved. They made it a Korea only thing primarily and they choked out anyone not in their gentlemens club. They even continued to stream the game illegaly for years as they were profiting from the works of someone else who hadn't even given them permission to broadcast the damn thing. Look at the KeSPA vs Blizzard thing that also went on just before the Match fixing and just before SC2. The match fixing if anything made the smallest impact on eSports as a whole. It made the biggest effect on the players themselves who lost their livelyhoods and eventually people are going to need to forgive them if they ever want BW to be super popular again.
We're in a post KeSPA BW world. Why waste time bringing back their stupid ideals. Isn't that what everyone was excited about when SC2 came out? That KeSPA couldn't hold their ridiculous rulings anymore and GOM would be in charge.
On April 29 2015 10:14 Cele wrote: Perhaps im blindsighted by the *epic stare into nothing sadface* propaganda photos lol, i dunno. Very interesting article though.
lol hmm. Interesting point you made here about the pics
yeah i was feeling for savior quite a bit when i read the article. However, replies made me aware that he is actually acting quite deceptive in his answers. Given that, it could very well be the case, that the photos were picked specifically to stir sentiments of pity in the reader, though i would'nt claim that, i have no proof at all and we're unable to get any.
Claiming that first match especially was max fixed is strange. UpMagic did a relatively common build which Flash did rather often. He had a build order loss. They happened all the time to everyone. Does that mean every game that happened was match fixed? Second game also. I can't even count the number of games people have proxied something in a stupid place all throughout Broodwar. This was even 2 years before the match fixing scandal even came to light and even then they claimed it didn't go back that far.
You can't tell if a game is fixed or not just by looking at it.
We all remember how strange it was for Savior to suddenly play so bad and never get out of his slump.
He says a lot of funny stuff. Like how he ran the matchfixing scheme but never fixed himself, or that they didn't know it was wrong but did try to keep it secret.
I also don't get why all these progamers keep hanging around with bw. Is it really impossible to go back to a normal life as a former progamer? Matchfixing stigma or not?
He should have retired when he realized he was never going to be the no.1 player in the world again. You don't fix matches or run matchfixing rings when you are the no.1 player in the world. He could have been whatever he wants to be besides a progamer by now.
Instead, he is still lying, apologizing for the unintended consequences and still begging for money through Africaa?
Man I don't give a fuck about all the hate. Yes he probably matchfixed those 1 or 2 games(still no proof remember.) and he was the middleman and introduced other players into it. Does that take away everything he achieved? Not for me. He was a true bonjwa. He took zerg from the bottom to the top and re-invented how people played the race. He destroyed players like Nada and Nal_Ra in MSL and OSL finals.
People make mistakes in their lives. Because he did he shouldn't be allowed to do what he enjoys? Playing the damn game that he is so good at? Fuck that. I will always be a fan no matter what. The Maestro sAviOr fighting!
On April 29 2015 19:49 DwD wrote: Man I don't give a fuck about all the hate. Yes he probably matchfixed those 1 or 2 games(still no proof remember.) and he was the middleman and introduced other players into it. Does that take away everything he achieved? Not for me. He was a true bonjwa. He took zerg from the bottom to the top and re-invented how people played the race. He destroyed players like Nada and Nal_Ra in MSL and OSL finals.
People make mistakes in their lives. Because he did he shouldn't be allowed to do what he enjoys? Playing the damn game that he is so good at? Fuck that. I will always be a fan no matter what. The Maestro sAviOr fighting!
blind fans like you give savior luxury products lol
On April 29 2015 19:41 Alcathous wrote: You can't tell if a game is fixed or not just by looking at it.
We all remember how strange it was for Savior to suddenly play so bad and never get out of his slump.
He says a lot of funny stuff. Like how he ran the matchfixing scheme but never fixed himself, or that they didn't know it was wrong but did try to keep it secret.
I also don't get why all these progamers keep hanging around with bw. Is it really impossible to go back to a normal life as a former progamer? Matchfixing stigma or not?
He should have retired when he realized he was never going to be the no.1 player in the world again. You don't fix matches or run matchfixing rings when you are the no.1 player in the world. He could have been whatever he wants to be besides a progamer by now.
Instead, he is still lying, apologizing for the unintended consequences and still begging for money through Africaa?
Most progamers end up in low end jobs due to a lack of university education which you can say in most East Asian countries essentially determines what kind of job and life you get for the rest of your life.
On April 29 2015 19:49 DwD wrote: Man I don't give a fuck about all the hate. Yes he probably matchfixed those 1 or 2 games(still no proof remember.) and he was the middleman and introduced other players into it. Does that take away everything he achieved? Not for me. He was a true bonjwa. He took zerg from the bottom to the top and re-invented how people played the race. He destroyed players like Nada and Nal_Ra in MSL and OSL finals.
People make mistakes in their lives. Because he did he shouldn't be allowed to do what he enjoys? Playing the damn game that he is so good at? Fuck that. I will always be a fan no matter what. The Maestro sAviOr fighting!
blind fans like you give savior Luxury products lol
On April 29 2015 19:16 Qikz wrote: Also please, the people claiming the match fixing drove the sponsors away... Can you please stop spouting that fallacy that has no evidence? The sponsors for Broodwar were already moving away from BW long before the match fixing started. You're just grabbing on to the stupid mistakes of young people and ignoring the bigger picture to I'm not sure, give yourself comfort or something. BW was on the decline for a long time and it wasn't going to last forever.
It might not be concrete evidence but there's a change before and after matchfixing that is worth noting. Another point to look at is the frequency of Starleagues in a year before and after matchfixing.
If anything what you've said in bold is what there's literally no evidence of.
I'd feel sorry for him if I actually believed him. I find it hard to trust that someone acting as a middleman was not tempted to get a easy few grand himself.
I understand how some of you are mad because of what he did. What i dont understand how any of you can be angry at him for still playing BW after the scandal. I mean you guys really complain that he has a donate button on his stream? If you remember the match fixing scandal, then you should be old enough to know that you actually need money to live in this world, or do all of you still live with parents and not know what rent/mortage is? Or are you saying that he should live on the streets hungry and thristy because he should punish himself for being literally the devil. If he was found quilty of murder in finland on 2008 he would most likely be already a free man by now, but you still continue to hate.
If he still somewhat enjoys playing and gets good enough money from him, I would insult him for being an idiot for quitting. He is literally doing the only correct choice.
On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote: 김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
As for Savior .. dude needs to just realize that he needs to leave everything Starcraft related if he ever wants to find peace. Get the money he's saved up from all his donations and shit, and just get out of the country, start a new life. Dude complains about how people still harass him about the matchfixing scandal, when he keeps shamelessly playing, streaming and competing in the game that he destroyed for more money .. give me a break jesus.
Wow really? I kind of liked Effort because his facial expressions resemble Zerg features. He wasn't one of those pretty boy K-pop wannabes, he had that rough zerg look going for him (which I LIKED). It's crazy that they would try to kick him from the team because of his appearance.
On April 29 2015 19:49 DwD wrote: Man I don't give a fuck about all the hate. Yes he probably matchfixed those 1 or 2 games(still no proof remember.) and he was the middleman and introduced other players into it. Does that take away everything he achieved? Not for me. He was a true bonjwa. He took zerg from the bottom to the top and re-invented how people played the race. He destroyed players like Nada and Nal_Ra in MSL and OSL finals.
People make mistakes in their lives. Because he did he shouldn't be allowed to do what he enjoys? Playing the damn game that he is so good at? Fuck that. I will always be a fan no matter what. The Maestro sAviOr fighting!
blind fans like you give savior luxury products lol
You can't compare Luxury and SaviOr. Savior didn't try to kill his wife.....
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
ArvickHero, I don't know what is your problem but you're not a good person and I'd rather have a chat with a match fixer than sit with you at the same table.
lol i totally agree with him
savior should be banned for life from anything having to do with BW
all the ex progamers started playing at a young age,bw always been in their life,for years they played it 10 12 hours a day ? idk, hell even for me that im no pro or anything is hard to out from bw,its been always a way to fix my sadness or angry, savior is already banned from every competitive tourney possible,there is not comeback for him,but i can understand he keep playing ,afterall he is one of the guys that contribute to the history of this game,in the good and in the bad yes.
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
ArvickHero, I don't know what is your problem but you're not a good person and I'd rather have a chat with a match fixer than sit with you at the same table.
lol i totally agree with him
savior should be banned for life from anything having to do with BW
Who would enforce this ban? Korean goverment? World police? Blizzard? Angry nerds?
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
ArvickHero, I don't know what is your problem but you're not a good person and I'd rather have a chat with a match fixer than sit with you at the same table.
lol i totally agree with him
savior should be banned for life from anything having to do with BW
Who would enforce this ban? Korean goverment? World police? Blizzard? Angry nerds?
not saying its enforceable, hence the "should"
its like pete rose getting banned for life from baseball
Most progamers end up in low end jobs due to a lack of university education which you can say in most East Asian countries essentially determines what kind of job and life you get for the rest of your life.
No one is born with a university education. Lot's of athletes have to go back to school at a later age once their career is over.
And even so, why don't they move on and work a lower or middle tier job. Is it really better to stream for the rest of your life?
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
ArvickHero, I don't know what is your problem but you're not a good person and I'd rather have a chat with a match fixer than sit with you at the same table.
lol i totally agree with him
savior should be banned for life from anything having to do with BW
Who would enforce this ban? Korean goverment? World police? Blizzard? Angry nerds?
not saying its enforceable, hence the "should"
its like pete rose getting banned for life from baseball
So if it was enforcable he would be? Anyway Savior went on trial and served his lawful punishment. Justice has been served in the most literal meaning. I dont get what else there is to grieve about. Also where there is demand, there will be supply, thats how free market works. Thats why he streams.
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
ArvickHero, I don't know what is your problem but you're not a good person and I'd rather have a chat with a match fixer than sit with you at the same table.
lol i totally agree with him
savior should be banned for life from anything having to do with BW
I know you do and that is your right. I am not here to change your opinion but to share mine. And what I think is that no one among us has the authority to condemn somebody who makes a stupid mistake which was intentionally escalated and made public so that all of us could suck it up and chew for the rest of our lives over and over again. Everything could be just fine if they handled him behind the closed doors. Yet, they decided to make it public, so that you guys could exercise some demagogy. You talk as if Savior is some organized criminal when in fact he was just a youngster whose only mistake was that he was too popular and the mob happily used this soft spot. Trust me, if I ever meet people so absorbed with being righteous like you guys and I see them make a mistake, they will never forget this day. Did I sound ridiculous? This is exactly what you did.
The only thing that has surprised me about this thread is when someone said Effort was given a shit contract based on looks. Really?? What kind of contracts did Hyvaa, Action, etc get then? I find that a bit hard to believe. If it's true...then damn, guess you have to look like Bisu to make it in BW.
On April 29 2015 02:47 ArvickHero wrote: 김봉준 is britney, whose team used the matchfixing scandal as an excuse to cut him loose. Matchfixing is the official reason, but many people suspect that it was because he's ugly, and the team was looking to cut him out for any reason really. Tangentially, being ugly is also pretty much why Effort retired his first time, because CJ was offering him such a shit contract despite his results (because he was ugly, thus not marketing very well).
Why did Effort come back after retirement, did CJ offer him more money after Savior got canned?
This is one of the most fascinating and horrifying things I have seen in my life. Not, I should specify, because what's involved is so awful, but because it's happening in something close to me. It's putting a lot of human nature into perspective for me, and in a rather awful way.
Before this point, I have never truly understood how much hatred humans can feel towards one another for nothing more than interfering with a simple interest. Let's be clear: nobody in this thread relies on Broodwar for their food. Nobody. Not one of you has been pushed into poverty by the decline of the game. All that this game is to you is a way of spending time. The game is indeed well-loved, but that is it. Perhaps you could make the argument that losing something so dear is a fair reason for hating someone, and make the analogy to someone else "stealing" your significant other. But that doesn't hold up. I look at the right-hand side of the TeamLiquid page, and I see over a dozen extremely skilled Broodwar streamers. There are even tournaments happening. So it isn't that the thing you love is gone, even. It is just that Broodwar has diminished in size. Is that what matters to all of you? Is the only thing of importance how many people show up to Broodwar events? Are you incapable of feeling the same attachment to the game because people play League now? That's absurd. It smacks of the "ded gaem" bullshit pulled by the most contemptible members of the SC2 community. And all this is assuming that Savior was the sole cause of the decline, which is clearly not the case. So, could it possibly be true that Savior has earned such gut-wrenching bile from all of you for contributing in some small way to the game having less players and less money in its tournaments?
No, I doubt any of that is true. I want to believe it isn't true, because that's far too petty. Wishing misery on someone for something so insignificant years after the fact is simply too horrible for words. I believe the real reason is that it felt like a betrayal to all of you, and so you took the matchfixing not as rational humans, but as jilted lovers. You refuse to forgive him not because he's unforgivable, but simply because of the pain of your emotional state. I'm speaking directly to you, here, Hot_Bid. You obviously idolized Savior, and when he did something that you hated, you couldn't square it with how you placed him on a pedestal. You couldn't take him as a human who makes mistakes. It's no different than the fans of Japanese and Korean idols who become obsessed with their "purity" and who go half-crazy if they find out those idols have boyfriends. This hatred is not a product of rational criticism for anything Savior has done. This hatred is simply the result of an unstable emotional state that should never have existed in the first place.
I'm disgusted with all of you who feel this hatred towards Savior, towards a human with his own life and his own future and his own pain, and I'm especially disgusted by those of you who wish him to suffer as a result of that hatred. And yet I do feel I can forgive you for it, just as I can forgive Savior for his disgusting choice to compromise his honesty and integrity. I do not resent any of you for it.
On April 30 2015 02:23 Acritter wrote: This is one of the most fascinating and horrifying things I have seen in my life. Not, I should specify, because what's involved is so awful, but because it's happening in something close to me. It's putting a lot of human nature into perspective for me, and in a rather awful way.
Before this point, I have never truly understood how much hatred humans can feel towards one another for nothing more than interfering with a simple interest. Let's be clear: nobody in this thread relies on Broodwar for their food. Nobody. Not one of you has been pushed into poverty by the decline of the game. All that this game is to you is a way of spending time. The game is indeed well-loved, but that is it. Perhaps you could make the argument that losing something so dear is a fair reason for hating someone, and make the analogy to someone else "stealing" your significant other. But that doesn't hold up. I look at the right-hand side of the TeamLiquid page, and I see over a dozen extremely skilled Broodwar streamers. There are even tournaments happening. So it isn't that the thing you love is gone, even. It is just that Broodwar has diminished in size. Is that what matters to all of you? Is the only thing of importance how many people show up to Broodwar events? Are you incapable of feeling the same attachment to the game because people play League now? That's absurd. It smacks of the "ded gaem" bullshit pulled by the most contemptible members of the SC2 community. And all this is assuming that Savior was the sole cause of the decline, which is clearly not the case. So, could it possibly be true that Savior has earned such gut-wrenching bile from all of you for contributing in some small way to the game having less players and less money in its tournaments?
No, I doubt any of that is true. I want to believe it isn't true, because that's far too petty. Wishing misery on someone for something so insignificant years after the fact is simply too horrible for words. I believe the real reason is that it felt like a betrayal to all of you, and so you took the matchfixing not as rational humans, but as jilted lovers. You refuse to forgive him not because he's unforgivable, but simply because of the pain of your emotional state. I'm speaking directly to you, here, Hot_Bid. You obviously idolized Savior, and when he did something that you hated, you couldn't square it with how you placed him on a pedestal. You couldn't take him as a human who makes mistakes. It's no different than the fans of Japanese and Korean idols who become obsessed with their "purity" and who go half-crazy if they find out those idols have boyfriends. This hatred is not a product of rational criticism for anything Savior has done. This hatred is simply the result of an unstable emotional state that should never have existed in the first place.
I'm disgusted with all of you who feel this hatred towards Savior, towards a human with his own life and his own future and his own pain, and I'm especially disgusted by those of you who wish him to suffer as a result of that hatred. And yet I do feel I can forgive you for it, just as I can forgive Savior for his disgusting choice to compromise his honesty and integrity. I do not resent any of you for it.
All he got was a lifelong ban from Kespa. He didn't get life in prison. The spirit of the decision of course was to force him to stop being involved with SC, but Kespa has limited authority.
I don't see why people who think that Savoir should have stopped playing SC and gone on with his life is referred to as 'deep hatred'.
In the end Savoir refuses to take responsibility and still tries to make a living off the game he was banned from. All he said is that he is sorry for how he caused trouble for his fellow players and that he is sorry he got caught.
I don't see why cheats need to have a second change in the game where they cheated. That they deserve a second chance in life, sure.
On April 30 2015 03:28 Alcathous wrote: All he got was a lifelong ban from Kespa. He didn't get life in prison. The spirit of the decision of course was to force him to stop being involved with SC, but Kespa has limited authority.
I don't see why people who think that Savoir should have stopped playing SC and gone on with his life is referred to as 'deep hatred'.
In the end Savoir refuses to take responsibility and still tries to make a living off the game he was banned from. All he said is that he is sorry for how he caused trouble for his fellow players and that he is sorry he got caught.
I don't see why cheats need to have a second change in the game where they cheated. That they deserve a second chance in life, sure.
Much like criminals, people change and people make mistakes. Saviour alongside people like UpMagic made mistakes and they were young. It appears he feels remorse for what he did and so did the others. Other than holding a grudge for the sake of it, I'd say that 5 years is a long enough time to be punished for something so minor. Infact, it's far too harsh a punishment.
People are holding this against saviour and the others for the simple fact they need someone to blame for KeSPA ditching BW. There's no reason any logical person would believe someone should be punished for the rest of their lives and stopped from doing what they love and were amazing at purely because they made a stupid decision. Those people must love the American law system where prison isn't about rehabilitation, it's about pure punishment.
On April 30 2015 03:28 Alcathous wrote: All he got was a lifelong ban from Kespa. He didn't get life in prison. The spirit of the decision of course was to force him to stop being involved with SC, but Kespa has limited authority.
I don't see why people who think that Savoir should have stopped playing SC and gone on with his life is referred to as 'deep hatred'.
In the end Savoir refuses to take responsibility and still tries to make a living off the game he was banned from. All he said is that he is sorry for how he caused trouble for his fellow players and that he is sorry he got caught.
I don't see why cheats need to have a second chance in the game where they cheated. That they deserve a second chance in life, sure.
Well said. Savior doesn't have to play Starcraft for a living. He continues to be free to do something else with his life.
Integrity of professional sports are important because that's the only reason it exists. If you want to cheat, you better be ready for a lifelong ban. It is not like dishonest people get honest when they get caught.
If we are talking about him not being able to get into school or get a job because of what he did, I'd concede that point.
Also, him denying he matchfixed doesn't help either. If he is still denying, what is the point of giving him a second chance? He wouldn't be eligible of a second chance even if you do want to give them.
Donno why you drag prison and rehabilitation into it. You also want Armstrong to compete in triathlons again? What is the fucking point of having a competition if you allow a serial cheat? It all becomes a meaningless endeavor. This isn't prowrestling where it is all about entertaining people. Once the spirit of fair competition is in question, the outcome is meaningless.
In fact, if Savior respected the spirit of the decision and moved on with his life, he would be in a much better spot than he is now. These guys were supertalented and smart. If he put that same focus and talent to play somewhere else, he'd have a great life. So I donno why some of you insist his life is ruined for ever because he can't play in some 2k view internet tournament.
Savior strikes me as a very smart guy with a few key pieces missing. I can 90% believe what he's saying. His thinking that him facilitating but not making the final decision put less guilt on him was immature, but not so uncommon. It's one of those things where in another context it really wouldn't have been a big deal. But SC:BW was a relatively small, but very devoted audience and he was a professional. It's not quite the same as in other sports where half the fans don't even know the game, let alone the player's names.
On April 30 2015 02:23 Acritter wrote: This is one of the most fascinating and horrifying things I have seen in my life. Not, I should specify, because what's involved is so awful, but because it's happening in something close to me. It's putting a lot of human nature into perspective for me, and in a rather awful way.
Before this point, I have never truly understood how much hatred humans can feel towards one another for nothing more than interfering with a simple interest. Let's be clear: nobody in this thread relies on Broodwar for their food. Nobody. Not one of you has been pushed into poverty by the decline of the game. All that this game is to you is a way of spending time. The game is indeed well-loved, but that is it. Perhaps you could make the argument that losing something so dear is a fair reason for hating someone, and make the analogy to someone else "stealing" your significant other. But that doesn't hold up. I look at the right-hand side of the TeamLiquid page, and I see over a dozen extremely skilled Broodwar streamers. There are even tournaments happening. So it isn't that the thing you love is gone, even. It is just that Broodwar has diminished in size. Is that what matters to all of you? Is the only thing of importance how many people show up to Broodwar events? Are you incapable of feeling the same attachment to the game because people play League now? That's absurd. It smacks of the "ded gaem" bullshit pulled by the most contemptible members of the SC2 community. And all this is assuming that Savior was the sole cause of the decline, which is clearly not the case. So, could it possibly be true that Savior has earned such gut-wrenching bile from all of you for contributing in some small way to the game having less players and less money in its tournaments?
No, I doubt any of that is true. I want to believe it isn't true, because that's far too petty. Wishing misery on someone for something so insignificant years after the fact is simply too horrible for words. I believe the real reason is that it felt like a betrayal to all of you, and so you took the matchfixing not as rational humans, but as jilted lovers. You refuse to forgive him not because he's unforgivable, but simply because of the pain of your emotional state. I'm speaking directly to you, here, Hot_Bid. You obviously idolized Savior, and when he did something that you hated, you couldn't square it with how you placed him on a pedestal. You couldn't take him as a human who makes mistakes. It's no different than the fans of Japanese and Korean idols who become obsessed with their "purity" and who go half-crazy if they find out those idols have boyfriends. This hatred is not a product of rational criticism for anything Savior has done. This hatred is simply the result of an unstable emotional state that should never have existed in the first place.
I'm disgusted with all of you who feel this hatred towards Savior, towards a human with his own life and his own future and his own pain, and I'm especially disgusted by those of you who wish him to suffer as a result of that hatred. And yet I do feel I can forgive you for it, just as I can forgive Savior for his disgusting choice to compromise his honesty and integrity. I do not resent any of you for it.
I just hope that you can cleanse your hearts.
lol at "irrational hatred" for someone that organized a matchfixing ring, destroyed the integrity of the sport and years later is still dishonest and making excuses. if he was truly repentant he would have moved on, but he's still around playing BW. It's obvious why people want him out of the scene and it's not because they're "jilted lovers obsessed with purity that go crazy".
I really don't understand this strange moral high ground you guys are trying to take here (looking at you two tools letian and Acritter). Most of us just want Savior to stay the fuck away from Brood War, especially in a capacity where he earns a buttload of money from it. We really don't care about him otherwise, and we're definitely not asking for his execution or insulting his mother or whatnot. If he starts his own business, becomes a teacher or a cop, great! good for him! All we want is him gone from the scene, the scene he deeply wounded and crippled. Savior brings back painful memories and sentiments for everyone who was heavily invested in the scene then.
I could draw an analogy to compare it to a rapist and the victim, or a murderer and the kin of the victim, but I have the feeling the point of the analogy would be missed and you'd say something dumb instead.
And you savior apologists .. trying to make it seem like what he did wasn't so bad, or how sad he is .. fuck you. He lives a cushy life off all the donations he gets. He's certainly not struggling to get by. You'd have to be delusional to think the matchfixing incident didn't do much harm. That one idiot who was saying how if matchfixing was really that harmful, thered be no sports scenes left in this world .. hey retard, did you ever hear of the Black Sox incident? Sports scenes survive matchfixing incidents because they take harsh actions against those guilty, just like the one done against Savior. You apologists remind me of those people who were insisting the Boston marathon bomber couldn't be guilty because they were so enamored by his looks. Get a grip on reality jesus .. If you like his play, fine. But don't try to justify it with some bullshit reasoning and excuse for his character and actions.
I find this really interesting, particularly the fact that he says that he apologised in an interview right after the scandal, because the worst thing, for me, was the fact that he apparently made no attempt to rehabilitate himself or even apologise.
However, as far as I recall, back when the scandal blew up the story was quite different from what he's saying. I remember one of the players who got caught (Hwasin, maybe?) quoting Savior as basically saying "I'm doing it, so why shouldn't you?". I also remember accusations that he had not only facilitated the match-fixing, but then had also kept the money for himself. Obviously I'm not saying that players who threw games deserved to get paid, but it would be a different level of low on Savior's side if he did that.
Anyway, I admit that the details are all a bit fuzzy for me now, but that leads me to wonder about the timing of this interview. The guy had 6 years to reach out to the community and try to make amends, but there was nothing. And after all this time we get "there is no proof"? This asshole got a (suspended) one-year jail sentence. Clearly a judge felt that there was enough proof of wrongdoing. Coming now and saying "ah, but you can't prove that i did this particular thing!" does nothing to make me warm up to him.
hat one idiot who was saying how if matchfixing was really that harmful, thered be no sports scenes left in this world .. hey retard, did you ever hear of the Black Sox incident?
Excuse me, I have a name and since when was using retard as a pejorative a normal and acceptable thing to say? I find that incredibly offensive. Citing one incident about match fixing in another sport, good work. Do you honestly think that match fixing isn't a thing in every single sport even at this current point in time? You're delusional if you think that sports are clean. Using my example of the FA again. The teams may not be found to be match fixing, but by god does the FA do some incredibly shady stuff.
i like how he's making money on afreeca while other (innocent) ex-pros go put on their fast food aprons to get by.
and i like how we always get the 5 ppl here appearing out of nowhere in the bw forums to explain to us how he was a young naive boy and had a rough time and deserves all that love for sticking with the game (while educating his viewers on how 2d games are stuff of the past and bw has no future [three years ago?]).
i'm continually inspired by savior threads and i look forward to more in the future. i love you all. + Show Spoiler +
On April 29 2015 04:23 ArvickHero wrote: For the record, I'm pretty mad that Hwasin is playing BW again and I think it is hypocritical that people are being so lenient about it. I don't think a life-time ban from the game is unreasonable, as the match-fixers of the infamous Black Sox scandal had received the same punishment.
The match-fixers pretty much crippled a thriving e-Sports scene, and either endangered or ended the livelihoods of everyone else in the industry. They undermined the integrity of the game, causing great damage to the trust of the sponsors and viewers. It's not unreasonable to expect the match-fixers to stay the fuck away from the game after causing it so much harm, because they were too damn selfish and greedy. They didn't just harm themselves--they harmed everyone else, and Savior is the most shameless about it.
Yet, Savior insists that it's still his right to earn money via streaming and playing in tournaments, because he's a greedy lazy fuck that doesn't want to do anything else. If he was REALLY repentant about his actions, and insisting that he just wants to play the game because he loves it, then he could EASILY turn off the donate balloon function for his stream. But he doesn't, because all he cares about is money. Maybe he doesn't have to move out of the country, but he could at least TRY to make a living off of something not related to Starcraft. Perhaps this is why Hwasin gets a free pass in some people's books--because he showed himself to be not completely pathetic and established his own business, making a livelihood off of something that isn't the game he helped destroy. For that reason alone he's better than Savior (but he still shouldn't stream or compete).
ArvickHero, I don't know what is your problem but you're not a good person and I'd rather have a chat with a match fixer than sit with you at the same table.
lol i totally agree with him
savior should be banned for life from anything having to do with BW
I know you do and that is your right. I am not here to change your opinion but to share mine. And what I think is that no one among us has the authority to condemn somebody who makes a stupid mistake
Trust me, if I ever meet people so absorbed with being righteous like you guys and I see them make a mistake, they will never forget this day.
I find your usage of the word "mistake" peculiar. I'm willing to call any bad decision which was made due to particular circumstances (such as pressure, lack of time), but which the individual would have made differently if he had put more thought into it, a "mistake". But organizing match fixing on behalf of a bookie over an extended period? This is something that requires thought. It is not a momentary screw-up.
You talk as if Savior is some organized criminal
Because that's exactly what he was. He organized actions which are crimes under the laws of his country. He induced others to commit crimes. And he was convicted for it in a court of law. So he is a convicted organized criminal. What is your problem with this?
I don't think that people refusing to forgive him amounts to extra-judicial punishment. They simply want to have nothing to do with him, as is their right. Savior may have received his punishment according to law, but that does not mean that anyone owes him forgiveness, and they sure as hell don't owe him acceptance.
On April 30 2015 04:58 GeLaar wrote: Big thanks for translating the interview.
I find this really interesting, particularly the fact that he says that he apologised in an interview right after the scandal, because the worst thing, for me, was the fact that he apparently made no attempt to rehabilitate himself or even apologise.
However, as far as I recall, back when the scandal blew up the story was quite different from what he's saying. I remember one of the players who got caught (Hwasin, maybe?) quoting Savior as basically saying "I'm doing it, so why shouldn't you?". I also remember accusations that he had not only facilitated the match-fixing, but then had also kept the money for himself. Obviously I'm not saying that players who threw games deserved to get paid, but it would be a different level of low on Savior's side if he did that.
Anyway, I admit that the details are all a bit fuzzy for me now, but that leads me to wonder about the timing of this interview. The guy had 6 years to reach out to the community and try to make amends, but there was nothing. And after all this time we get "there is no proof"? This asshole got a (suspended) one-year jail sentence. Clearly a judge felt that there was enough proof of wrongdoing. Coming now and saying "ah, but you can't prove that i did this particular thing!" does nothing to make me warm up to him.
I'm not sure if there was more transparency in the Korean media, but in the English coverage (who did their best, don't mean to criticise), it was never very clear whether the convictions where for effectively all the match-fixing that took place, or just those cases they had the most definite proof for.
At this point it's really a he-said-they-said. It's not likely there'll be any new evidence coming out any more (and I don't think anybody would want to have it either, nothing more than digging up old hurts by now).
On April 30 2015 04:58 GeLaar wrote: Big thanks for translating the interview.
I find this really interesting, particularly the fact that he says that he apologised in an interview right after the scandal, because the worst thing, for me, was the fact that he apparently made no attempt to rehabilitate himself or even apologise.
However, as far as I recall, back when the scandal blew up the story was quite different from what he's saying. I remember one of the players who got caught (Hwasin, maybe?) quoting Savior as basically saying "I'm doing it, so why shouldn't you?". I also remember accusations that he had not only facilitated the match-fixing, but then had also kept the money for himself. Obviously I'm not saying that players who threw games deserved to get paid, but it would be a different level of low on Savior's side if he did that.
Anyway, I admit that the details are all a bit fuzzy for me now, but that leads me to wonder about the timing of this interview. The guy had 6 years to reach out to the community and try to make amends, but there was nothing. And after all this time we get "there is no proof"? This asshole got a (suspended) one-year jail sentence. Clearly a judge felt that there was enough proof of wrongdoing. Coming now and saying "ah, but you can't prove that i did this particular thing!" does nothing to make me warm up to him.
At this point it's really a he-said-they-said. It's not likely there'll be any new evidence coming out any more (and I don't think anybody would want to have it either, nothing more than digging up old hurts by now).
That is exactly what I meant when I was questioning the timing of his statements. If the point was to have a reasonable conversation, I think one year after the scandal would have been a good time. But 6 years? It's not fresh in anybody's mind, and it comes down to, as you said, he-said-they-said. At this point, even if the Fomos interview he is referring to had never happened, how would we even find out? Would someone still come forward and challenge any statement he makes? That's why I would keep in mind that he has a lot of room to bend the truth.
On April 30 2015 04:56 ArvickHero wrote: I could draw an analogy to compare it to a rapist and the victim, or a murderer and the kin of the victim, but I have the feeling the point of the analogy would be missed and you'd say something dumb instead.
This is exactly what I meant about the emotionality. You really, genuinely think that you are in the same position as a victim of rape or someone close to a murder victim. This simply is not true. You and all the others who castigate Savior as you do are using him as a scapegoat - and for what? For the shrinking, and not the death, of a professional video game scene. There are less people playing the game, certainly, but those people who still play are superb at the game. Bisu, for example, continues to impress me with all of the VODs of him that I watch. You could say that the players aren't as good as they were in the good old days, but that doesn't change the fact that they are to us as stars in the sky. Nothing has been lost except a sense of prestige, and that sense of prestige is so important to you that you need something to blame for its downfall. And there's no way it could have been the gradual shrinking of the scene, oh no. It couldn't have been the rise of SC2. It must have been Savior, because he's someone who can be blamed. You can feel you're doing something for Broodwar by saying he should never come back, when in reality you're doing nothing at all. It's sad. The game you love will not and cannot be harmed by Savior streaming it or even by him playing it, just as DOTA2 is unharmed by Solo's continued play. All you have is your emotional state of feeling hurt, offended, jaded, or whatever else it happens to be. It all means nothing.
If you think my analysis is wrong, then please, go ahead and draw out the exact lines of reasoning that connect Savior to any personal harm you have experienced as well as the connection that makes Savior's involvement in the scene threatening while Solo's is not. If you can do these and believe them yourself, then perhaps he has caused you some harm. But otherwise, it's all just the thundering of your injured heart.
On April 30 2015 04:56 ArvickHero wrote: I could draw an analogy to compare it to a rapist and the victim, or a murderer and the kin of the victim, but I have the feeling the point of the analogy would be missed and you'd say something dumb instead.
imagine you'd made some analogy like that, how many rape victims and kin of murder victims do you believe would think that analogy would be completely fitting and alright?
On April 29 2015 21:56 FFW_Rude wrote: You can't compare Luxury and SaviOr. Savior didn't try to kill his wife.....
no not player luxury... lol
i think this thread too many star2 people giving their opinion on why star1 people should forgive savior; they are not wrong because it is just opinion but they do not have place to just come and say others are wrong opinion.
star2 has people they do not like like winterstarcraft for cheating; i do not think they would be happy if someone said star2 cheater should continue make money from star2. and yet they say same thing for savior? lol
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