EPTBut yeah keep dreaming about your "pro" micro/macro when you can't get top gm with it lol.
Should Building Automation Be Added? - Page 4
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imre
France9263 Posts
But yeah keep dreaming about your "pro" micro/macro when you can't get top gm with it lol. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On April 23 2015 15:52 HewTheTitan wrote: You're saying it requires intelligence and wit to press a sequence of keys in a practiced way? Deciding how to spend your actions per minute and attention requires intelligence and efficient thinking If you have enough actions to do everything, then there is no decision to be made, and the game is dumbed down, requiring less thinking and less decision making. Good macro also takes skill. StarCraft (and I assume StarCraft 2 as well) is a game of intelligence and skill. And most importantly, it is a game in which intelligence meets skill and works in unison. That's what makes it unique and different from other games. It is not just one of the two, or even both at the same time. It is a fusion of both which creates something new and greater than the sum of its parts. There was once a rookie Terran who's name I can't remember, who played against Jaedong. He had two opportunities to win, but both times, he failed, because he focused on keeping his money low. He should have let his money skyrocket, to micro that vulture in Jaedong's base against unupgraded slowlings. Then his marine and medic follow up (which was also mismicroed, but could have won the game) would certainly have destroyed Jaedong. He had a lot of skill, but his decision making faltered. He should have focused more on micro and less on macro. WIth automated production, he wouldn't have had to choose. But it's not as simple as choosing one or the other. You can choose most of one and a little of the other, or split them half in half. And with smart planning, you can get more out of the same amount of actions. 250 apm with bad planning is not equal to 250 apm with good planning. If you can look in to the future, you can predict when you'll be able to go back and macro without losing anything on the micro front, and macro at such times. You can even tactically force such situations. A very simple example is if you want to move your mutalisks from one base to an other. During that time, you don't have to control your mutalisks, so you are free to macro. If you are actively harassing a Terran base, you may have to retreat with your mutalisks to place an extra hatchey. But this may not be worth it if you're doing extreme damage. You have to judge whether the damage that can be done is greater than the gain of placing an extra hatchery as fast as possible. | ||
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Frankenberry
Denmark302 Posts
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
On April 23 2015 21:58 sAsImre wrote: So funny all these people pretending they macro/micro like pro haha. Someone not impressed by some top players macro (Cure vs Snute IEM qualifier was magnificient) is just not able to look at what a good macro is supposed to be. You see macro mistakes all the time in the production bar of top players (they could get it perfect, it's just that your apm is often best used to do something else) or even some piling tons of ressources like Maru when focusing too much on micro/multitask. But yeah keep dreaming about your "pro" micro/macro when you can't get top gm with it lol. I don't understand your point. Who pretends to micro/macro like a pro? Did someone write this in this topic? The fact that pros got perfect macro and we, mere mortals, don't doesn't change the fact that for a average player macroing is fucking tiresome. You can say all you want that it is what makes SC2 unique and beautiful but the facts are harsh, SC2 is facing a constant departure of its players. Game without players won't attract viewers, game without viewers is dead as e-sport. I am afraid in the near future there won't be many people to admire mechanical grind, they all will shift to playing/spectating other games. Max Planck once said: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." Accidentaly this quote is perfect for describing current situation in SC2, just change scientific truth with idea of good design; there are old ideas in SC2: about macro, mechanical grind and taking all the fun in the name of highest possible skill requirement - but those ideas probably will die out, along with SC2 in its current form. Look at LoL, this game was ridiculed by many members of SC2 community as no-skill game for kids. Meanwhile LoL tournaments gathers huge crowds of spectators, who also are in huge part gamers, in the same time SC2 is feeding on scraps and only active personalities are some veterans. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On April 23 2015 21:55 playa wrote: As someone who has wanted Nexus Wars to be promoted more than even SC 2 or at least to the same degree, I'm ready for this. When I think about how hard Zerg was compared to SC 2, I'm disgusted. When I think about Terran in SC 2, it seems like everyone macros "just the same" to me. Gone are the days of being able to be impressed. Once the ability to impress is gone, you're merely left with a repetitive chore. On April 23 2015 18:23 jinorazi wrote: i can tell you this right now, i'm no gm level but i sure as hell can micro like gm or pro. im never impressed by micro plays from pros since its something i can do too. what impresses me is not skipping a beat in macro while doing all the micro. i dont understand why you can't understand that macro+micro is what makes the game hard. For reference. And prove me viewers and players are departing for the game (hint it's absolutely false as far as viewers go) | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
There are a lot of games out there that drive towards the automated side of the manual control vs. automation curve, and not a whole lot that specifically emphasize manual control meant to empower players and put them in the driver seat. That's because it's much harder to do right. But done well it brings out the best that a real time system has to offer. You want people with superior tactics and strategy to shine. In a game like SC, depth of strategy is tied directly to the depth and focus (automated vs. manual) of the real time component. How long before we have a little splash page at the beginning of the game that lets you choose a build to execute on the fly with these units producing in cycles? Because last time I checked, a large part of becoming a great SC player involves reducing the idle time between series of input commands. That's why the best macro players are the best. Besides, if you're having trouble cycling out units without any idle time ,there's already another tool available to you. It's used even at the highest level. Queuing is far from optimal, but hey, neither is your suggestion! | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
On April 23 2015 22:40 sAsImre wrote: For reference. And prove me viewers and players are departing for the game (hint it's absolutely false as far as viewers go) Some links: http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/10/18/starcraft-2-struggles-as-league-of-legends-rises/ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/466333-upcoming-changes-to-wcs-2015?page=61#1214 Also check any Top 50 streamers thread, as numbers indicate there is constant departure of SC2 streams viewers. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On April 23 2015 23:01 Embir wrote: Some links: http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/10/18/starcraft-2-struggles-as-league-of-legends-rises/ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/466333-upcoming-changes-to-wcs-2015?page=61#1214 Also check any Top 50 streamers thread, as numbers indicate there is constant departure of SC2 streams viewers. Look at the 2015 numbers and come back, IEM blew out everything, we got way more content than what we got since 2011/2012, and probably still more than this due to the rising strenght of the scene in korea, community streams are working and getting some nice numbers (nothing was done that rivaled what BasetradeTV is doing now, in quality and quantity) | ||
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
On April 23 2015 23:06 sAsImre wrote: Look at the 2015 numbers and come back, IEM blew out everything, we got way more content than what we got since 2011/2012, and probably still more than this due to the rising strenght of the scene in korea, community streams are working and getting some nice numbers (nothing was done that rivaled what BasetradeTV is doing now, in quality and quantity) I provided you links so I hope you will provide links too. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On April 23 2015 20:24 Big J wrote: I love the idea. But I can't see it working in SC2, because the game was never designed around that. Think about larva or warpgates. A game with such a core production feature needs the production - and units and strategies - to be designed around that feature. This is not the case with SC2. Agree with this. There is imo no doubt that the future of the RTS genere is to get rid of the macro-production/pointless extra click-part of the genre, and focus more on interesting micro interactions (which is where most "casual-friendly" RTS's sucks). | ||
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Rukis
United States252 Posts
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SC2Towelie
United States561 Posts
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 23 2015 23:12 Rukis wrote: You created this post with the idea that sc2 should be more newbie friendly. The game by far is not newbie friendly and has never been newbie friendly. Besides, it's beyond hilarious to see some people asking for more of what made the game unplayable for low level players to begin with. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On April 23 2015 23:11 Hider wrote: Agree with this. There is imo no doubt that the future of the RTS genere is to get rid of the macro-production/pointless extra click-part of the genre, and focus more on interesting micro interactions (which is where most "casual-friendly" RTS's sucks). But can they be called "RTS" then? Additionally, don't "interesting micro interactions" call for MOBA-like micro, which would bring us even further from the "RTS" genre? | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On April 23 2015 23:21 OtherWorld wrote: But can they be called "RTS" then? Additionally, don't "interesting micro interactions" call for MOBA-like micro, which would bring us even further from the "RTS" genre? Macro is "toxic" yo | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
Of course: ARTS. | ||
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Deimos
Mexico134 Posts
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