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On April 23 2015 16:52 Heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 15:11 GiveMeCake wrote:
This will definitely help to distinguish the players that can micro and macro the best even further then ever before. I don't think this does anything like this and is directly opposed to that goal. I mean, you're literally taking macro out if someone just has to press one button, and macro is already so simple in SC2 that any top player is largely indistinguishable from another in that aspect. I'm not a big fan of the idea because I don't think we should be aiming to cater to gold players for any particular reason, and I don't think this adds anything to the game. All your examples of people being too busy with other aspects of the game to macro are the things that make StarCraft beautiful.
What I mean is that LotV will further distinguish player skill because of the economy changes and units focused around micro. I proposed that this increase will make it even difficult for casual players to enjoy the game because it is too demanding.
I just wanted to add that auto-queues aren't always beneficial and there are exceptions which is important.
I also don't believe that upgrades should automatically queue, and I think that abilities on units should generally not be auto cast to make up for the freed up APM.
Times when you don't want auto-queue turned on:
- You have enough workers
- You need to cut workers for a specific rush/cheese
- You need to stop making workers early on to defend a rush / cheese / all-in
- Zerg - If your re-maxing and want to tech switch to throw your opponent off
- You only want one unit or a limit set of units (all races)
- Terran - swapping out add-ons (eg. getting one Raven early on)
- Terran - may need to save energy for scans (Cloaked Units, Vision)
- Protoss - may need to save chrono for specific timings or may need to prioritize other buildings such as upgrades at different times
- Protoss - You need to warp in units at specific locations or based on unit counters
Mistakes can still be made by using auto-queue. What if a player fails to tech switch at the right moment because he forgets to adjust the queue?
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if any of you guys watched some aom titans gameplay, its very complex and very strategical. And it has autoque, but trust me its still way to much u can do for the autoque to matter in that game. Sc2 is 100x more dumbed down so i guess auto que in this game would not be good.
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the moment they add auto build feature, im out. i understand for scarabs or interceptors...but buildings and units...ughhhh
OP makes it sound like everyone should be able to tank/medivac micro, shuttle/reaver and im certain blizzard wants some part of that too but here is the thing, IF they do, i as a avid player for over a decade will shit on this game beyond reason and part ways never looking back. i never understood how some fans can hate a movie or game's successor on what they did with it, but if they do implement such thing, i would finally understand what they mean.
the game is easy enough already this does not need to turn into tic-tac-toe.
a player who can keep up with difficult fundamental tasks on top of everything else should have advantage, not everyone having this fundamental skill given to them and then play the evened playing field. this takes away from game play.
what was impressive to me watching progamers do were things i couldnt do, being perfect with "mundane" tasks while doing other things. sc2 already took away these mundane tasks to make the game easier and yet people WANT MORE!?!? it already has select all army button for god sakes, SELECT ALL ARMY BUTTON!!!
seriously, this game isn't about micro or macro or build order, its the combination of all and a progamer's job is to do all aspects perfect as possible and those who can't, taking advantage of what they're good at. forcing away some aspect(s) to focus on the other is just bad (starcraft) game design.
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I would love that and it would make me enjoy playing the game much more. However posting this on TL is just funny, you will find no understanding here in the land of "skill".
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This feature will be great for people who want to get a big lead early on, leave to use the restroom, and return with a 200/200 army.
It will also be useful for people who don't want to pause when they go open the door for the pizza guy just to return with an excess of minerals and gas.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Autobuild is not going to work the intended way in SC2, the OP just didn't do his research. It only works well in games that have gradual spending (like C&C or Grey Goo, you spend 0 resources to order a unit, then they are spent gradually across the unit's build time). Resource starvation in such a game means everything just builds slower because emerging resources are spent equally across all the building units, and everything you order is completed at the same relative rates.
In SC2, you actually spend all the resources at once (at the moment when ordering a unit, to make autobuild even possible - at the moment when the unit starts building), which would lead to race conditions and conflicting priorities when faced with starvation, heavily skewed towards cheaper units for obvious reasons (actually, given enough scale, you're not gonna see your expensive units being produced at all - every time resources are available for something cheaper, it gets ordered). It's gonna cause more harm that good in a serious game because the very point of an efficient economy is to stay as close to resource starvation as possible.
EDIT: also, most of the people who propose some kind of automation in the macro game miss the real issue. Ordering units is the easiest thing in the world. It's done using just hotkey presses (in other words, very fast). What's hard in the macro game is building because it involves precision mouse clicks and screen movement (two most prominent time sinks in RTS mechanics) and also some worker order queuing with more screen movement. What you're trying to do here is blindfolded optimization, stop and look for the real bottlenecks first.
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For me, beeing able to micro and keep constant production going is a big part of sc2. It is what really distinguishes good from really great players - splitting your attention without missing a beat.
Even so, I agree that this might be a nice feature for lower leagues and new players. However, I see big problems when a player gets promoted to a league where this feature isn't available any more. He or she would all of a sudden hit a brick (skill) wall and probably be super frustrated.
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On April 23 2015 17:48 BluzMan wrote:
Autobuild is not going to work the intended way in SC2, the OP just didn't do his research. It only works well in games that have gradual spending (like C&C or Grey Goo, you spend 0 resources to order a unit, then they are spent gradually across the unit's build time). Resource starvation in such a game means everything just builds slower because emerging resources are spent equally across all the building units, and everything you order is completed at the same relative rates.
In SC2, you actually spend all the resources at once (at the moment when ordering a unit, to make autobuild even possible - at the moment when the unit starts building), which would lead to race conditions and conflicting priorities when faced with starvation, heavily skewed towards cheaper units for obvious reasons (actually, given enough scale, you're not gonna see your expensive units being produced at all - every time resources are available for something cheaper, it gets ordered). It's gonna cause more harm that good in a serious game because the very point of an efficient economy is to stay as close to resource starvation as possible.
Please go look at Age of Mythology: Titans expansion.. It proves that this can work as units build the exact same way in that game as they do in SC2.
Also, if a Terran has 2 factories making siege tanks and 5 barracks making marines, but cannot afford to keep all of his production going on at once, he should be punished by having marines take priority over the tanks. Players have the OPTION and the CHOICE to disable the auto queues for the marines if they need more tanks, the same control they have now.
Edit: Auto Queues would only make you stay as close to starvation as possible. Even better than you do now. What it would do is make it so more people could do this, raising the skill cap of the game. Different things will be prioritized such as scouting, harassing, defending, expanding, battle micro. If your death ball dies in the middle of the map you already have units building back home to possibly stage a come back where normally the game would be over even though you have resources...
What people cannot understand is this does not take control AWAY from the player unless he forgets to turn auto queue off, and turning auto queue off requires just as much effort as building a unit as we do now...
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On April 23 2015 17:56 GiveMeCake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 17:48 BluzMan wrote:
Autobuild is not going to work the intended way in SC2, the OP just didn't do his research. It only works well in games that have gradual spending (like C&C or Grey Goo, you spend 0 resources to order a unit, then they are spent gradually across the unit's build time). Resource starvation in such a game means everything just builds slower because emerging resources are spent equally across all the building units, and everything you order is completed at the same relative rates.
In SC2, you actually spend all the resources at once (at the moment when ordering a unit, to make autobuild even possible - at the moment when the unit starts building), which would lead to race conditions and conflicting priorities when faced with starvation, heavily skewed towards cheaper units for obvious reasons (actually, given enough scale, you're not gonna see your expensive units being produced at all - every time resources are available for something cheaper, it gets ordered). It's gonna cause more harm that good in a serious game because the very point of an efficient economy is to stay as close to resource starvation as possible. Please go look at Age of Mythology: Titans expansion.. It proves that this can work as units build the exact same way in that game as they do in SC2. Also, if a Terran has 2 factories making siege tanks and 5 barracks making marines, but cannot afford to keep all of his production going on at once, he should be punished by having marines take priority over the tanks. Players have the OPTION and the CHOICE to disable the auto queues for the marines if they need more tanks, the same control they have now. What people cannot understand is this does not take control AWAY from the player unless he forgets to turn auto queue off, and turning auto queue off requires just as much effort as building a unit as we do now...
oh how wrong you are with that statement.
lets not divert from the fact that this is simply to make the game easier.
example: have you ever forgotten to do your upgrades? do you never skip a beat from 1 attack to 2 attack? if you missed it, do you simply say the game should have done that for you?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On April 23 2015 17:56 GiveMeCake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 17:48 BluzMan wrote:
Autobuild is not going to work the intended way in SC2, the OP just didn't do his research. It only works well in games that have gradual spending (like C&C or Grey Goo, you spend 0 resources to order a unit, then they are spent gradually across the unit's build time). Resource starvation in such a game means everything just builds slower because emerging resources are spent equally across all the building units, and everything you order is completed at the same relative rates.
In SC2, you actually spend all the resources at once (at the moment when ordering a unit, to make autobuild even possible - at the moment when the unit starts building), which would lead to race conditions and conflicting priorities when faced with starvation, heavily skewed towards cheaper units for obvious reasons (actually, given enough scale, you're not gonna see your expensive units being produced at all - every time resources are available for something cheaper, it gets ordered). It's gonna cause more harm that good in a serious game because the very point of an efficient economy is to stay as close to resource starvation as possible. Please go look at Age of Mythology: Titans expansion.. It proves that this can work as units build the exact same way in that game as they do in SC2. Also, if a Terran has 2 factories making siege tanks and 5 barracks making marines, but cannot afford to keep all of his production going on at once, he should be punished by having marines take priority over the tanks. Players have the OPTION and the CHOICE to disable the auto queues for the marines if they need more tanks, the same control they have now. Edit: Auto Queues would only make you stay as close to starvation as possible. Even better than you do now. What it would do is make it so more people could do this, raising the skill cap of the game. Different things will be prioritized such as scouting, harassing, defending, expanding, battle micro. If your death ball dies in the middle of the map you already have units building back home to possibly stage a come back where normally the game would be over even though you have resources... What people cannot understand is this does not take control AWAY from the player unless he forgets to turn auto queue off, and turning auto queue off requires just as much effort as building a unit as we do now...
Please show me a procsene for that game.
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On April 23 2015 18:07 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 17:56 GiveMeCake wrote:On April 23 2015 17:48 BluzMan wrote:
Autobuild is not going to work the intended way in SC2, the OP just didn't do his research. It only works well in games that have gradual spending (like C&C or Grey Goo, you spend 0 resources to order a unit, then they are spent gradually across the unit's build time). Resource starvation in such a game means everything just builds slower because emerging resources are spent equally across all the building units, and everything you order is completed at the same relative rates.
In SC2, you actually spend all the resources at once (at the moment when ordering a unit, to make autobuild even possible - at the moment when the unit starts building), which would lead to race conditions and conflicting priorities when faced with starvation, heavily skewed towards cheaper units for obvious reasons (actually, given enough scale, you're not gonna see your expensive units being produced at all - every time resources are available for something cheaper, it gets ordered). It's gonna cause more harm that good in a serious game because the very point of an efficient economy is to stay as close to resource starvation as possible. Please go look at Age of Mythology: Titans expansion.. It proves that this can work as units build the exact same way in that game as they do in SC2. Also, if a Terran has 2 factories making siege tanks and 5 barracks making marines, but cannot afford to keep all of his production going on at once, he should be punished by having marines take priority over the tanks. Players have the OPTION and the CHOICE to disable the auto queues for the marines if they need more tanks, the same control they have now. What people cannot understand is this does not take control AWAY from the player unless he forgets to turn auto queue off, and turning auto queue off requires just as much effort as building a unit as we do now... oh how wrong you are with that statement. lets not divert from the fact that this is simply to make the game easier.
No you need to open your mind and think for a second. The game would get harder, that's what people don't understand! The overall skill will be higher. That means that games are closer. Players have more time to do things around the map such as: scout, harass, do multiple attacks in different areas, control individual units, etc It will also help with the death ball problem where if you lose your entire army the game instantly ends. Now with auto-queues you will already have units started the moment your supply drops down, letting you defend better (closer game, more fun).
Edit: This is only going to be an issue because LotV is a faster game, with a faster economy and all new units needing lots of micro. You need to think about how LotV game play will be, I agree that HotS or WoL didn't need this feature near as much.
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On April 23 2015 17:56 GiveMeCake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 17:48 BluzMan wrote:
Edit: Auto Queues would only make you stay as close to starvation as possible. Even better than you do now. What it would do is make it so more people could do this, raising the skill cap of the game. Different things will be prioritized such as scouting, harassing, defending, expanding, battle micro. If your death ball dies in the middle of the map you already have units building back home to possibly stage a come back where normally the game would be over even though you have resources...
that completely contradicts your statement. "raise the skill cap of the game" by making things easier for you so you dont have to worry about making units while you do your micro stuff, as if macro is a mundane task. micro+macro is what makes the game hard and should keep it hard. you want to make it easier...yet you say it raises skill cap.
there's a term often used when people try to advice players, "keep your mineral low", basics of macro 101. you want that done for you by the game.
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It is simple as this: Putting automation in the game will just bring down the skill ceiling in a ridiculous level. Like a plat player beating GMs or even worse. Idk how many explanation and how many people it will need for the OP to realize that multitasking (esp macro) is the core mechanic of the game.
Players have more time to do things around the map such as: scout, harass, do multiple attacks in different areas, control individual units, etc
That's actually separate Pro/High Level/Good Players from the others in the current SC. They can do that without the automation you are suggesting, whereas lower level players cannot. How can the game be harder when everyone can focus on fewer things. As one poster said above micro is the easier part of SC2
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On April 23 2015 18:13 GiveMeCake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 18:07 jinorazi wrote:On April 23 2015 17:56 GiveMeCake wrote:On April 23 2015 17:48 BluzMan wrote:
Autobuild is not going to work the intended way in SC2, the OP just didn't do his research. It only works well in games that have gradual spending (like C&C or Grey Goo, you spend 0 resources to order a unit, then they are spent gradually across the unit's build time). Resource starvation in such a game means everything just builds slower because emerging resources are spent equally across all the building units, and everything you order is completed at the same relative rates.
In SC2, you actually spend all the resources at once (at the moment when ordering a unit, to make autobuild even possible - at the moment when the unit starts building), which would lead to race conditions and conflicting priorities when faced with starvation, heavily skewed towards cheaper units for obvious reasons (actually, given enough scale, you're not gonna see your expensive units being produced at all - every time resources are available for something cheaper, it gets ordered). It's gonna cause more harm that good in a serious game because the very point of an efficient economy is to stay as close to resource starvation as possible. Please go look at Age of Mythology: Titans expansion.. It proves that this can work as units build the exact same way in that game as they do in SC2. Also, if a Terran has 2 factories making siege tanks and 5 barracks making marines, but cannot afford to keep all of his production going on at once, he should be punished by having marines take priority over the tanks. Players have the OPTION and the CHOICE to disable the auto queues for the marines if they need more tanks, the same control they have now. What people cannot understand is this does not take control AWAY from the player unless he forgets to turn auto queue off, and turning auto queue off requires just as much effort as building a unit as we do now... oh how wrong you are with that statement. lets not divert from the fact that this is simply to make the game easier. No you need to open your mind and think for a second. The game would get harder, that's what people don't understand! The overall skill will be higher. That means that games are closer. Players have more time to do things around the map such as: scout, harass, do multiple attacks in different areas, control individual units, etc It will also help with the death ball problem where if you lose your entire army the game instantly ends. Now with auto-queues you will already have units started the moment your supply drops down, letting you defend better (closer game, more fun). Edit: This is only going to be an issue because LotV is a faster game, with a faster economy and all new units needing lots of micro. You need to think about how LotV game play will be, I agree that HotS or WoL didn't need this feature near as much.
how about this: as you suggest, scout, harass, do multiple attacks in different areas, control individual units, etc. and *gasp* MACRO!
surely that raises the skill cap more than what you suggest.
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On April 23 2015 18:16 shin_toss wrote:
It is simple as this: Putting automation in the game will just bring down the skill ceiling in a ridiculous level. Like a plat player beating GMs or even worse. Idk how many explanation and how many people it will need for the OP to realize that multitasking (esp macro) is the core mechanic of the game.
You act like the difference between a plat player and a GM is macro. It has a LOT to do with macro, but there are so many things the GM player is going to be doing better than the plat that it's impossible to compare. Game knowledge, build orders, decision making are all = or more important... so no I don't agree that it's going to eliminate the skill ceiling for the game.
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On April 23 2015 18:20 GiveMeCake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 18:16 shin_toss wrote:
It is simple as this: Putting automation in the game will just bring down the skill ceiling in a ridiculous level. Like a plat player beating GMs or even worse. Idk how many explanation and how many people it will need for the OP to realize that multitasking (esp macro) is the core mechanic of the game. You act like the difference between a plat player and a GM is macro. It has a LOT to do with macro, but there are so many things the GM player is going to be doing better than the plat that it's impossible to compare. Game knowledge, build orders, decision making are all = or more important... so no I don't agree that it's going to eliminate the skill ceiling for the game.
i can tell you this right now, i'm no gm level but i sure as hell can micro like gm or pro. im never impressed by micro plays from pros since its something i can do too. what impresses me is not skipping a beat in macro while doing all the micro.
i dont understand why you can't understand that macro+micro is what makes the game hard.
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You can do anything you want to micro. But if you touch to macro it's to make it harder, not the other way. What makes me win games is my macro, and I would like to keep it that way.
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Italy12247 Posts
Assuming we want to play Starcraft, no, it shouldn't be added.
If you decide to play some other, completely different game it's one design decision you can make...but again, doing so would make LotV a game that isn't Starcraft
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Czech Republic12132 Posts
I still think that Blizzard should implement these features for lower leagues. I mean in car racing games you can turn on some helping aids. Why we cannot have this in SC2 in some way with disabling them automatically if you advance into higher league. And as usual, you can turn them off completely if you wish so.
It would help lower players and on high level they(aids) would be disabled because, well, on high level you are good enough 
So this feature would be awesome for, lets say, silver and bronze.
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On April 23 2015 18:39 Teoita wrote:
Assuming we want to play Starcraft, no, it shouldn't be added.
If you decide to play some other, completely different game it's one design decision you can make...but again, doing so would make LotV a game that isn't Starcraft
exactly my thoughts
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EPT
