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On August 10 2014 21:59 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2014 21:24 Devolved wrote:
Every single ZvZ I've seen (and there's been a ton of them) is just the same Roach vs. Roach battle with maybe some Hydras mixed in for some extra DPS. Add in the lings/banes at the start of the game and you've got the entire zerg ground arsenal available until much later in the game (and hydras are already pretty late). Add the mutas when there's an opportunity to get them and there are not already the few spore crawlers (baneling spewers in that case) necessary to defend them and you've got the entire zerg air arsenal usable in zvz before brood lords. There are not that many units that can be used (but not that few either). It's the way they're used that changes things, and that's where strategy comes in. Mindless roaches vs roaches 1A battles are boring and uninteresting, but I haven't seen that many recently (I'm not following every single game though). Then again, mindless parade pushing with marines/mines and a few medivacs is just as boring and devoid of strategy. Just keep on rallying until the zerg breaks or finds a way to break the cycle, yay. And turtle into 1A protoss deathball is not that interesting either. Each matchup has its boring side, especially when it's not 'your' race and you may not understand what's actually required to execute it. There's nothing special about zvz on this front. And then there's personal taste. I'd rather see ZvZ and PvP all day long than any TvT, but that's me. Maybe you're just a bit allergic to the zerg race design.
I agree with you with everything except the dislike you have with TvT. This is by far my favourite mirror matchup. In TvT its all about the tank positioning, and I love watching pros dance their tanks around each other to either a) find an opening in the defense, or b) deny your opponent any openings.
And then there is the pure mech vs mech/bio games that can go back and forth exchanging blows.
For me, the PvP matchup is something I would skip, unless its pheonix wars. Those are fun games.
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On August 10 2014 22:02 KelsierSC wrote:
I can't believe people are surprised or aggravated that the beginning of a game or strategy for each matchup is the same. Like the game has been out for a while and top players have put a huge number of hours into the game they have figured out the standard "best" way to play. Yes there are variations you can do but the Standard will be the most played out because it is the best strategy at the time until a refutation comes along.
Even in the most varied matchup I doubt there are more than 3-4 distinct strategies to aim for and all others are just subtle variations of these distinct strategies.
Yeah I know what you mean, but sometimes the subtle variations can have a huge affect on the game.
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On August 10 2014 22:03 TargA wrote:
ur just too bad to realise whats going on.
Oh sorry Mr. Progamer, not everyone is supergosu like you and Incontrol. Go build some more roaches, get your upgrades 4 seconds earlier and attack with more surface area. So exciting!
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For fucks sake. Lay off this guys back!
He never claimed to be able to do better, he never claimed it was no skill involved he never claimed to know exactly what was going on. If all you are going to do is post about how OP is stupid because he is not GM then you are better off shutting up and thus cleverly avoiding looking both stupid and quite a bit of an asshole at the same time.
'
Now on to the actual topic.
ZvZ is extremely bland and monotonous in how it plays out, its roach vs roach indeed. This is a stale meta that never seems to change, like others have said there are lots of other strategies but they are barely ever used. It was ages ago I saw mutas in ZvZ and while some players transitions a lot (Hydras or infestors) like notably all the taiwanese players in Taiwan open recently everyone always makes roaches to some extent.
ZvZ having a stale meta is not in itself "bad" look at TvZ to be honest its basically MMM vs Ling/bling muta 90% of the time, do we think that is bad? Not really, the thing about roach wars are that they are bloody boring, its true.
The balance at the moment is as such that if you don't make roaches in ZvZ you will die, thus everyone makes roaches. Blizzard knows this is not good and have probably thought about patches a lot but as we all know they don't like big changes before LOTV comes out.
ZvZ is a bit stale at the moment, its true. However hold on! Either a patch or at the time LOTV is released everything will be changed (Hopefully  )
Don't give up on the game just because this one matchup is in a bit of a slump at the moment.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:10 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2014 22:02 KelsierSC wrote:
I can't believe people are surprised or aggravated that the beginning of a game or strategy for each matchup is the same. Like the game has been out for a while and top players have put a huge number of hours into the game they have figured out the standard "best" way to play. Yes there are variations you can do but the Standard will be the most played out because it is the best strategy at the time until a refutation comes along.
Even in the most varied matchup I doubt there are more than 3-4 distinct strategies to aim for and all others are just subtle variations of these distinct strategies. Yeah I know what you mean, but sometimes the subtle variations can have a huge affect on the game.
Oh absolutely they do have a huge effect, but that is what a lot of people ( including the OP ) are missing.
To put it in simple terms, they just see 2 guys massing up roaches and think the game is stupid. But perhaps one guy took a quick third base and so had a lower roach count for a while but his opponent couldn't take advantage. That kind of thing gets overlooked and they just sit in twitch chat with the cool kids spouting moronic bullshit like "ZvZ roaches Kappa"
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On August 10 2014 22:03 TargA wrote:
ur just too bad to realise whats going on.
Luckily this game doesn't depend on viewers below GM to stay relevant.
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Id like to hear your opinion on the other mirror match ups, and perhaps even the non mirror match ups. But when it comes to a match up where you and your opponent have the same tools at your disposal, mechanical skill is what you want for deciding whose better. You always want mechanics to matter, in all match ups. Out of all the various skills a player has to differ from his opponent mechanical skill is the most broad and diverse single skill. I'm worried you enjoy build order wins, cheese, or 'special tactics' to decide matches and sets. Or that you prefer seeing a simple rock-paper-scissors 'whose dice rolled the better combo of units' deciding things.
-Scouting and econing when its appropriate? That's important.
-Knowing when to get upgrades or cut upgrades and get more units? That's important.
-Knowing how early you can grab your third and get away with it/defend it? That's important.
-Splitting/spreading for an engagement? That's important.
-And of course, good late game macro such as hitting your injects? That's important.
Mechanics should be the most important thing in this game, it's unfortunate that sc2 has a relatively low mechanical ceiling but it's a good thing that ZvZ is determined by mechanics.
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On August 10 2014 21:54 Gere wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2014 21:24 Devolved wrote:
How fucking boring is it to max on 1 (or 2 if you're really playing out-of-the-box) units and just bang your head against your opponent's same composition over and over until 1 person finally gets a bit of an edge and wins the game? This is not strategy. It is mundane repetitive mechanical bullshit, and it's something I can easily do without. Are you at least top Masters yet? If not, then you probably should try playing your "simple" strategy and see if it works out. It cannot be that hard to build a single unit, right? Most likely you will find yourself missing strategical points and losing a lot. It's easy to shout out "I know everything and I would win if only I tried"
He's trying to say its boring from a spectators point of view. Most viewers are fairly new players and when they see the same few units/strategy it is a huge turn off and will most likely shut down the stream. Just look @ RBBG, when MMA got eliminated viewership dropped by 3000. the only few times where viewers get excited is when scarlett or jaedong plays but thats it... its really bad for the game....
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On August 10 2014 22:11 Shuffleblade wrote:For fucks sake. Lay off this guys back! He never claimed to be able to do better, he never claimed it was no skill involved he never claimed to know exactly what was going on. If all you are going to do is post about how OP is stupid because he is not GM then you are better off shutting up and thus cleverly avoiding looking both stupid and quite a bit of an asshole at the same time. ' Now on to the actual topic. ZvZ is extremely bland and monotonous in how it plays out, its roach vs roach indeed. This is a stale meta that never seems to change, like others have said there are lots of other strategies but they are barely ever used. It was ages ago I saw mutas in ZvZ and while some players transitions a lot (Hydras or infestors) like notably all the taiwanese players in Taiwan open recently everyone always makes roaches to some extent. ZvZ having a stale meta is not in itself "bad" look at TvZ to be honest its basically MMM vs Ling/bling muta 90% of the time, do we think that is bad? Not really, the thing about roach wars are that they are bloody boring, its true. The balance at the moment is as such that if you don't make roaches in ZvZ you will die, thus everyone makes roaches. Blizzard knows this is not good and have probably thought about patches a lot but as we all know they don't like big changes before LOTV comes out. ZvZ is a bit stale at the moment, its true. However hold on! Either a patch or at the time LOTV is released everything will be changed (Hopefully ) Don't give up on the game just because this one matchup is in a bit of a slump at the moment.
I don't think the ZvZ meta is completely stale, but I do see far too many roach v roach as opposed to other units.
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On August 10 2014 22:02 KelsierSC wrote:
I can't believe people are surprised or aggravated that the beginning of a game or strategy for each matchup is the same. Like the game has been out for a while and top players have put a huge number of hours into the game they have figured out the standard "best" way to play. Yes there are variations you can do but the Standard will be the most played out because it is the best strategy at the time until a refutation comes along.
Even in the most varied matchup I doubt there are more than 3-4 distinct strategies to aim for and all others are just subtle variations of these distinct strategies.
While true to some extent it is baffling how strong the roach meta has becomes and how it won't go away.
You are half right and half wrong, these kinds of "meta" finding out the ultimate way of doing something and doing it over and over, It will lead to everyone doing that, if everyone does it than you can pretty much figure out what your opponent is going to do and blind counter it. This is how the meta change, people learn how to counter the most popular strategy and then people will stop doing it because it doesn't work anymore.
This is what happened when Z started doing 3 hatch before pool vs P greedy openings back in the day, thus out greeding them blindly.
For a meta to stay as long and tenaciously like this one is rare and in my opinion shows something is wrong with the game. If you can't counter his strat (without going for the same strat) when knowing exactly what he's going to do then its something seriously wrong.
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On August 10 2014 22:07 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2014 21:59 Maniak_ wrote:On August 10 2014 21:24 Devolved wrote:
Every single ZvZ I've seen (and there's been a ton of them) is just the same Roach vs. Roach battle with maybe some Hydras mixed in for some extra DPS. Add in the lings/banes at the start of the game and you've got the entire zerg ground arsenal available until much later in the game (and hydras are already pretty late). Add the mutas when there's an opportunity to get them and there are not already the few spore crawlers (baneling spewers in that case) necessary to defend them and you've got the entire zerg air arsenal usable in zvz before brood lords. There are not that many units that can be used (but not that few either). It's the way they're used that changes things, and that's where strategy comes in. Mindless roaches vs roaches 1A battles are boring and uninteresting, but I haven't seen that many recently (I'm not following every single game though). Then again, mindless parade pushing with marines/mines and a few medivacs is just as boring and devoid of strategy. Just keep on rallying until the zerg breaks or finds a way to break the cycle, yay. And turtle into 1A protoss deathball is not that interesting either. Each matchup has its boring side, especially when it's not 'your' race and you may not understand what's actually required to execute it. There's nothing special about zvz on this front. And then there's personal taste. I'd rather see ZvZ and PvP all day long than any TvT, but that's me. Maybe you're just a bit allergic to the zerg race design. I agree with you with everything except the dislike you have with TvT. This is by far my favourite mirror matchup. In TvT its all about the tank positioning, and I love watching pros dance their tanks around each other to either a) find an opening in the defense, or b) deny your opponent any openings. And then there is the pure mech vs mech/bio games that can go back and forth exchanging blows. For me, the PvP matchup is something I would skip, unless its pheonix wars. Those are fun games.
That's why I included the bit about being allergic to the design of a particular race 
My own dislike for the terran race design was just given as an example, not intended to start another race wars, sorry if it sounded that way
People like different races and matchups differently, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. I started Random but ended up picking Zerg because there's no random with only two races and I just can't stand the Terran design. Nothing to do with balance, I just really don't like the design. Hence TvT bores me to tears, but I won't say that this matchup is globally boring since I know there are many people who like and understand it a lot better.
And maybe that's part of the problem the OP has with ZvZ. Just one possibility, not saying it's the correct one
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I think zvz would be much better if there was a strong aoe semi static unit that could control some space. That way you could tech to other stuff without and it would ad a mobility vs strength dynamic.
For example lurkers! 
Il go back to reality now.
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I really enjoy early ZvZ, its fast and there is tons of mind games and micro. Mid game can get a bit crap i suppose with the Roach wars ( christ i hate this unit).
One thing for sure its better to watch than ZvP, fuck me thats boring !!!!!
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On August 10 2014 22:12 KelsierSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2014 22:10 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On August 10 2014 22:02 KelsierSC wrote:
I can't believe people are surprised or aggravated that the beginning of a game or strategy for each matchup is the same. Like the game has been out for a while and top players have put a huge number of hours into the game they have figured out the standard "best" way to play. Yes there are variations you can do but the Standard will be the most played out because it is the best strategy at the time until a refutation comes along.
Even in the most varied matchup I doubt there are more than 3-4 distinct strategies to aim for and all others are just subtle variations of these distinct strategies. Yeah I know what you mean, but sometimes the subtle variations can have a huge affect on the game. Oh absolutely they do have a huge effect, but that is what a lot of people ( including the OP ) are missing. To put it in simple terms, they just see 2 guys massing up roaches and think the game is stupid. But perhaps one guy took a quick third base and so had a lower roach count for a while but his opponent couldn't take advantage. That kind of thing gets overlooked and they just sit in twitch chat with the cool kids spouting moronic bullshit like "ZvZ roaches Kappa"
Yeah its very fun to watch though, especially when you notice these things. Like when 2/2 hits 30 seconds earlier, but they end up losing because the other zerg went for a few infestors that hit the money fungals needed to delay until the upgrades evened out.
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It's been like this for a long time even in sc1. I consider all ZvZs irrelevant except for the sake of determining who goes on to the next round. Watched once, never liked it. BW ZvZ was slightly more exciting thanks to extreme muta control, but still bleh. PvP still feels like a coinflip sometimes.
TvT is by far the best matchup. The question that should be asked is "why?".
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
as lord of best games i give ZvZ a 3/5
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You can try to make plenty theoretical arguments for why ZvZ isn't one-dimensional and boring, but in the end it has topped - together with PvP - almost every single vote of people's least interesting to watch match-ups I have ever seen. And now PvP has turned into something that allows multiple strategies on a regular basis, while ZvZ has become even more purely roach-based. Stop taking it as an insult against the game or race you love, and start thinking about way to make a boring part of the game - which it is at least for the majority of spectators - more interesting.
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more frustrating than roach vs roach is/are the super random shots from wm at TvZ. Very unpredictable if you play ling+bling against wm. wm is ok against all other zerg units. micro against wm doesnt help anything if wm are sitting on intelligent places.
(1) What happens if cooldown is gone and there are already 2 (split) lings within that area? which ling is going to die?
(2) What happens if wm detect first ling but killed by other units before wm begins to attack (due to 1,5sec delay), 1,5 sec later there are 10000 lings+blings in that area, where will be the rocket hitting?
(3) If terran is microing his wm, zerg will never know/notice that. Zerg only know if it had already hitted but this is too way late.
Don't response with "1,5sec delay tells it", How do you know it was as (2) or (3) from Zerg perspective?
You have to see it from Zerg and Terran perspective, not as a casual bystander. (1) and (2) are fucking frustrating for both players because of the random shots.
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On August 10 2014 22:11 Shuffleblade wrote:For fucks sake. Lay off this guys back! He never claimed to be able to do better, he never claimed it was no skill involved he never claimed to know exactly what was going on. If all you are going to do is post about how OP is stupid because he is not GM then you are better off shutting up and thus cleverly avoiding looking both stupid and quite a bit of an asshole at the same time. ' Now on to the actual topic. ZvZ is extremely bland and monotonous in how it plays out, its roach vs roach indeed. This is a stale meta that never seems to change, like others have said there are lots of other strategies but they are barely ever used. It was ages ago I saw mutas in ZvZ and while some players transitions a lot (Hydras or infestors) like notably all the taiwanese players in Taiwan open recently everyone always makes roaches to some extent. ZvZ having a stale meta is not in itself "bad" look at TvZ to be honest its basically MMM vs Ling/bling muta 90% of the time, do we think that is bad? Not really, the thing about roach wars are that they are bloody boring, its true. The balance at the moment is as such that if you don't make roaches in ZvZ you will die, thus everyone makes roaches. Blizzard knows this is not good and have probably thought about patches a lot but as we all know they don't like big changes before LOTV comes out. ZvZ is a bit stale at the moment, its true. However hold on! Either a patch or at the time LOTV is released everything will be changed (Hopefully ) Don't give up on the game just because this one matchup is in a bit of a slump at the moment.
I agree man, guys way to be Dicks, OP HAS HIS OPINION, let him have it, dont insult him for it
And he's true, ZvZ is boring, so is TvT, so is PvP, basically pros are so good, they (most of the time) mirror what the other guy is doing, like PvP, Colossi wars, OR Archon/Immortal/Zealot vs Archon/Immortal/Zealot; TvT, Marine Tank transitioned from maybe a different early game cuz of Harrassment; ZvZ Roach wars with Hydras or Infestors, even worse Nerchio vs Stephano Season 2 (SH vs SH, YAY HOW FUN IS THAT?????!!!!!), ALL MIRROR MATCHUPS CAN BE BORING, and trust me, ZvZ currently is the least interesting, even PvP has some variation like Rain vs Zest, PartinG vs herO or Zest vs sOs in Proleague. ZvZ ( and to a lsser extent, TvT) =basically SAME COMPOSITION for both players
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EPT
