EPTHow fucking boring is it to max on 1 (or 2 if you're really playing out-of-the-box) units and just bang your head against your opponent's same composition over and over until 1 person finally gets a bit of an edge and wins the game? This is not strategy. It is mundane repetitive mechanical bullshit, and it's something I can easily do without.
ZvZ is the most boring mundane same-crap MU ever!
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Devolved
United States2753 Posts
How fucking boring is it to max on 1 (or 2 if you're really playing out-of-the-box) units and just bang your head against your opponent's same composition over and over until 1 person finally gets a bit of an edge and wins the game? This is not strategy. It is mundane repetitive mechanical bullshit, and it's something I can easily do without. | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
i like your arguments about zvz and especially your insight into the matchup on various skill levels. I hope you follow this up with a guide. In all honesty: zvz was the reason for many people to play protoss or terran instead. | ||
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TokyoGirl
Japan116 Posts
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Devolved
United States2753 Posts
Build Roaches. The end. | ||
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ETisME
12375 Posts
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
thou you can trey and mix things up a little trying to be cute with burrow and by going muta-> roach | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12152 Posts
Muta transition (some Scarlett vs Sen games for example). Infestor transition (a ton of games). Swarmhost transition before it was thankfully patched. Most PvT: tech to colossus so that you can hold mines and bio, into scv pull, the end. A match-up that doesn't have it at all: PvP! But most people dislike it and then pretend it's for that reason. A solution: watch roach wars more carefully and realize how much skill it takes to win a majority of them. Then come back and discuss. See you in a while. | ||
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Sjokola
Netherlands800 Posts
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JoeCool
Germany2517 Posts
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Devolved
United States2753 Posts
On August 10 2014 21:36 ETisME wrote: always interesting to see some people with their complete lack of knowledge in ZvZ and label the MU as boring mass up one unit Hey, I'm no SC2 expert and especially not a ZvZ expert. I'm just commenting on what I've seen since I've returned, which is about ~50 ZvZ tournament matches with every single one of them being a Roach vs. Roach battle. Of course there may have been some very minimal early ling/bane action but all the other player has to do to counter that is build Roaches and have a bit of defense in the form of his own lings/banes. Maybe I'm missing something and you can enlighten me, but from what I've seen it's Roach vs. Roach nonstop with maybe a few Hydras mixed in till the end of the game. | ||
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MangoMountain
Norway2044 Posts
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On August 10 2014 21:24 Devolved wrote: I took a break from SC2 a while back, but since I have come back I've been watching a lot of tournament streams to get caught up on strategies and just the scene in general. Every single ZvZ I've seen (and there's been a ton of them) is just the same Roach vs. Roach battle with maybe some Hydras mixed in for some extra DPS. It's boring, it's repetitive, and if this is the future of SC2 I don't know why I even bothered returning. How fucking boring is it to max on 1 (or 2 if you're really playing out-of-the-box) units and just bang your head against your opponent's same composition over and over until 1 person finally gets a bit of an edge and wins the game? This is not strategy. It is mundane repetitive mechanical bullshit, and it's something I can easily do without. You are a foolish man | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On August 10 2014 21:41 JoeCool wrote: I thought ZvZ was all about Ling/Bling? Most openers is ling/bling but unless one zerg ends it with some sweet bane pain, both zergs need to transition to something else. I see most pro zvz games go like this: ling/bling -> roach/ling -> static defense From here, there are variations. I have seen some go roach/hyrda like the OP mentions, while others still like mutas in this match up. Another choice is SH, but this might force the opponent to go brood lords. I honestly don't think zvz is as bland as the OP thinks. Like with any mirror match ups, sometimes the counter to x unit is more x unit, but in zvz its not always roach wars. | ||
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Gere
Germany55 Posts
On August 10 2014 21:24 Devolved wrote: How fucking boring is it to max on 1 (or 2 if you're really playing out-of-the-box) units and just bang your head against your opponent's same composition over and over until 1 person finally gets a bit of an edge and wins the game? This is not strategy. It is mundane repetitive mechanical bullshit, and it's something I can easily do without. Are you at least top Masters yet? If not, then you probably should try playing your "simple" strategy and see if it works out. It cannot be that hard to build a single unit, right? Most likely you will find yourself missing strategical points and losing a lot. It's easy to shout out "I know everything and I would win if only I tried" | ||
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meshfusion
Russian Federation232 Posts
every ZvZ is the same (and I agree, most boring MU, I ALWAYS skip it or ignore it or don't watch it when it happens) every TvP or TvP opening and the first 10 mins are 90% the time the same with the stupid reaper expand. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On August 10 2014 21:24 Devolved wrote: Every single ZvZ I've seen (and there's been a ton of them) is just the same Roach vs. Roach battle with maybe some Hydras mixed in for some extra DPS. Add in the lings/banes at the start of the game and you've got the entire zerg ground arsenal available until much later in the game (and hydras are already pretty late). Add the mutas when there's an opportunity to get them and there are not already the few spore crawlers (baneling spewers in that case) necessary to defend them and you've got the entire zerg air arsenal usable in zvz before brood lords. There are not that many units that can be used (but not that few either). It's the way they're used that changes things, and that's where strategy comes in. Mindless roaches vs roaches 1A battles are boring and uninteresting, but I haven't seen that many recently (I'm not following every single game though). Then again, mindless parade pushing with marines/mines and a few medivacs is just as boring and devoid of strategy. Just keep on rallying until the zerg breaks or finds a way to break the cycle, yay. And turtle into 1A protoss deathball is not that interesting either. Each matchup has its boring side, especially when it's not 'your' race and you may not understand what's actually required to execute it. There's nothing special about zvz on this front. And then there's personal taste. I'd rather see ZvZ and PvP all day long than any TvT, but that's me. Maybe you're just a bit allergic to the zerg race design. | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
Even in the most varied matchup I doubt there are more than 3-4 distinct strategies to aim for and all others are just subtle variations of these distinct strategies. | ||
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TargA
Norway204 Posts
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:03 TargA wrote: ur just too bad to realise whats going on. Thanks Targa I didn't wanna say it  . | ||
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Devolved
United States2753 Posts
On August 10 2014 21:54 Gere wrote: Are you at least top Masters yet? If not, then you probably should try playing your "simple" strategy and see if it works out. It cannot be that hard to build a single unit, right? Most likely you will find yourself missing strategical points and losing a lot. It's easy to shout out "I know everything and I would win if only I tried" I never claimed to be a top masters or even good at this game. Please don't put words into my mouth that were never spoken such as "I know everything" and "I would win if I only tried." I never spoke these words nor have I implied such. My commentary comes mainly from watching games as-of-late. If this is supposed to be a spectator-friendly e-sport videogame, then something really needs to be done about the ZvZ matchup, because at this point I'm just turning off the stream when another ZvZ match happens unless it's one of my absolute favorite players. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On August 10 2014 21:59 Maniak_ wrote: Add in the lings/banes at the start of the game and you've got the entire zerg ground arsenal available until much later in the game (and hydras are already pretty late). Add the mutas when there's an opportunity to get them and there are not already the few spore crawlers (baneling spewers in that case) necessary to defend them and you've got the entire zerg air arsenal usable in zvz before brood lords. There are not that many units that can be used (but not that few either). It's the way they're used that changes things, and that's where strategy comes in. Mindless roaches vs roaches 1A battles are boring and uninteresting, but I haven't seen that many recently (I'm not following every single game though). Then again, mindless parade pushing with marines/mines and a few medivacs is just as boring and devoid of strategy. Just keep on rallying until the zerg breaks or finds a way to break the cycle, yay. And turtle into 1A protoss deathball is not that interesting either. Each matchup has its boring side, especially when it's not 'your' race and you may not understand what's actually required to execute it. There's nothing special about zvz on this front. And then there's personal taste. I'd rather see ZvZ and PvP all day long than any TvT, but that's me. Maybe you're just a bit allergic to the zerg race design. I agree with you with everything except the dislike you have with TvT. This is by far my favourite mirror matchup. In TvT its all about the tank positioning, and I love watching pros dance their tanks around each other to either a) find an opening in the defense, or b) deny your opponent any openings. And then there is the pure mech vs mech/bio games that can go back and forth exchanging blows. For me, the PvP matchup is something I would skip, unless its pheonix wars. Those are fun games. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:02 KelsierSC wrote: I can't believe people are surprised or aggravated that the beginning of a game or strategy for each matchup is the same. Like the game has been out for a while and top players have put a huge number of hours into the game they have figured out the standard "best" way to play. Yes there are variations you can do but the Standard will be the most played out because it is the best strategy at the time until a refutation comes along. Even in the most varied matchup I doubt there are more than 3-4 distinct strategies to aim for and all others are just subtle variations of these distinct strategies. Yeah I know what you mean, but sometimes the subtle variations can have a huge affect on the game. | ||
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Devolved
United States2753 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:03 TargA wrote: ur just too bad to realise whats going on. Oh sorry Mr. Progamer, not everyone is supergosu like you and Incontrol. Go build some more roaches, get your upgrades 4 seconds earlier and attack with more surface area. So exciting! | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
He never claimed to be able to do better, he never claimed it was no skill involved he never claimed to know exactly what was going on. If all you are going to do is post about how OP is stupid because he is not GM then you are better off shutting up and thus cleverly avoiding looking both stupid and quite a bit of an asshole at the same time. ' Now on to the actual topic. ZvZ is extremely bland and monotonous in how it plays out, its roach vs roach indeed. This is a stale meta that never seems to change, like others have said there are lots of other strategies but they are barely ever used. It was ages ago I saw mutas in ZvZ and while some players transitions a lot (Hydras or infestors) like notably all the taiwanese players in Taiwan open recently everyone always makes roaches to some extent. ZvZ having a stale meta is not in itself "bad" look at TvZ to be honest its basically MMM vs Ling/bling muta 90% of the time, do we think that is bad? Not really, the thing about roach wars are that they are bloody boring, its true. The balance at the moment is as such that if you don't make roaches in ZvZ you will die, thus everyone makes roaches. Blizzard knows this is not good and have probably thought about patches a lot but as we all know they don't like big changes before LOTV comes out. ZvZ is a bit stale at the moment, its true. However hold on! Either a patch or at the time LOTV is released everything will be changed (Hopefully  ) Don't give up on the game just because this one matchup is in a bit of a slump at the moment. | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:10 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Yeah I know what you mean, but sometimes the subtle variations can have a huge affect on the game. Oh absolutely they do have a huge effect, but that is what a lot of people ( including the OP ) are missing. To put it in simple terms, they just see 2 guys massing up roaches and think the game is stupid. But perhaps one guy took a quick third base and so had a lower roach count for a while but his opponent couldn't take advantage. That kind of thing gets overlooked and they just sit in twitch chat with the cool kids spouting moronic bullshit like "ZvZ roaches Kappa" | ||
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mabla
Germany18 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:03 TargA wrote: ur just too bad to realise whats going on. Luckily this game doesn't depend on viewers below GM to stay relevant. | ||
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Unsane
Canada170 Posts
-Scouting and econing when its appropriate? That's important. -Knowing when to get upgrades or cut upgrades and get more units? That's important. -Knowing how early you can grab your third and get away with it/defend it? That's important. -Splitting/spreading for an engagement? That's important. -And of course, good late game macro such as hitting your injects? That's important. Mechanics should be the most important thing in this game, it's unfortunate that sc2 has a relatively low mechanical ceiling but it's a good thing that ZvZ is determined by mechanics. | ||
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TokyoGirl
Japan116 Posts
On August 10 2014 21:54 Gere wrote: Are you at least top Masters yet? If not, then you probably should try playing your "simple" strategy and see if it works out. It cannot be that hard to build a single unit, right? Most likely you will find yourself missing strategical points and losing a lot. It's easy to shout out "I know everything and I would win if only I tried" He's trying to say its boring from a spectators point of view. Most viewers are fairly new players and when they see the same few units/strategy it is a huge turn off and will most likely shut down the stream. Just look @ RBBG, when MMA got eliminated viewership dropped by 3000. the only few times where viewers get excited is when scarlett or jaedong plays but thats it... its really bad for the game.... | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:11 Shuffleblade wrote: For fucks sake. Lay off this guys back! He never claimed to be able to do better, he never claimed it was no skill involved he never claimed to know exactly what was going on. If all you are going to do is post about how OP is stupid because he is not GM then you are better off shutting up and thus cleverly avoiding looking both stupid and quite a bit of an asshole at the same time. ' Now on to the actual topic. ZvZ is extremely bland and monotonous in how it plays out, its roach vs roach indeed. This is a stale meta that never seems to change, like others have said there are lots of other strategies but they are barely ever used. It was ages ago I saw mutas in ZvZ and while some players transitions a lot (Hydras or infestors) like notably all the taiwanese players in Taiwan open recently everyone always makes roaches to some extent. ZvZ having a stale meta is not in itself "bad" look at TvZ to be honest its basically MMM vs Ling/bling muta 90% of the time, do we think that is bad? Not really, the thing about roach wars are that they are bloody boring, its true. The balance at the moment is as such that if you don't make roaches in ZvZ you will die, thus everyone makes roaches. Blizzard knows this is not good and have probably thought about patches a lot but as we all know they don't like big changes before LOTV comes out. ZvZ is a bit stale at the moment, its true. However hold on! Either a patch or at the time LOTV is released everything will be changed (Hopefully ) Don't give up on the game just because this one matchup is in a bit of a slump at the moment. I don't think the ZvZ meta is completely stale, but I do see far too many roach v roach as opposed to other units. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:02 KelsierSC wrote: I can't believe people are surprised or aggravated that the beginning of a game or strategy for each matchup is the same. Like the game has been out for a while and top players have put a huge number of hours into the game they have figured out the standard "best" way to play. Yes there are variations you can do but the Standard will be the most played out because it is the best strategy at the time until a refutation comes along. Even in the most varied matchup I doubt there are more than 3-4 distinct strategies to aim for and all others are just subtle variations of these distinct strategies. While true to some extent it is baffling how strong the roach meta has becomes and how it won't go away. You are half right and half wrong, these kinds of "meta" finding out the ultimate way of doing something and doing it over and over, It will lead to everyone doing that, if everyone does it than you can pretty much figure out what your opponent is going to do and blind counter it. This is how the meta change, people learn how to counter the most popular strategy and then people will stop doing it because it doesn't work anymore. This is what happened when Z started doing 3 hatch before pool vs P greedy openings back in the day, thus out greeding them blindly. For a meta to stay as long and tenaciously like this one is rare and in my opinion shows something is wrong with the game. If you can't counter his strat (without going for the same strat) when knowing exactly what he's going to do then its something seriously wrong. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:07 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I agree with you with everything except the dislike you have with TvT. This is by far my favourite mirror matchup. In TvT its all about the tank positioning, and I love watching pros dance their tanks around each other to either a) find an opening in the defense, or b) deny your opponent any openings. And then there is the pure mech vs mech/bio games that can go back and forth exchanging blows. For me, the PvP matchup is something I would skip, unless its pheonix wars. Those are fun games. That's why I included the bit about being allergic to the design of a particular race My own dislike for the terran race design was just given as an example, not intended to start another race wars, sorry if it sounded that way People like different races and matchups differently, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. I started Random but ended up picking Zerg because there's no random with only two races and I just can't stand the Terran design. Nothing to do with balance, I just really don't like the design. Hence TvT bores me to tears, but I won't say that this matchup is globally boring since I know there are many people who like and understand it a lot better. And maybe that's part of the problem the OP has with ZvZ. Just one possibility, not saying it's the correct one | ||
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Gullis
Sweden740 Posts
For example lurkers!  Il go back to reality now. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
One thing for sure its better to watch than ZvP, fuck me thats boring !!!!! | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:12 KelsierSC wrote: Oh absolutely they do have a huge effect, but that is what a lot of people ( including the OP ) are missing. To put it in simple terms, they just see 2 guys massing up roaches and think the game is stupid. But perhaps one guy took a quick third base and so had a lower roach count for a while but his opponent couldn't take advantage. That kind of thing gets overlooked and they just sit in twitch chat with the cool kids spouting moronic bullshit like "ZvZ roaches Kappa" Yeah its very fun to watch though, especially when you notice these things. Like when 2/2 hits 30 seconds earlier, but they end up losing because the other zerg went for a few infestors that hit the money fungals needed to delay until the upgrades evened out. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
TvT is by far the best matchup. The question that should be asked is "why?". | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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antiRW
United Kingdom117 Posts
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
(1) What happens if cooldown is gone and there are already 2 (split) lings within that area? which ling is going to die? (2) What happens if wm detect first ling but killed by other units before wm begins to attack (due to 1,5sec delay), 1,5 sec later there are 10000 lings+blings in that area, where will be the rocket hitting? (3) If terran is microing his wm, zerg will never know/notice that. Zerg only know if it had already hitted but this is too way late. Don't response with "1,5sec delay tells it", How do you know it was as (2) or (3) from Zerg perspective? You have to see it from Zerg and Terran perspective, not as a casual bystander. (1) and (2) are fucking frustrating for both players because of the random shots. | ||
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MiniFotToss
China2430 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:11 Shuffleblade wrote: For fucks sake. Lay off this guys back! He never claimed to be able to do better, he never claimed it was no skill involved he never claimed to know exactly what was going on. If all you are going to do is post about how OP is stupid because he is not GM then you are better off shutting up and thus cleverly avoiding looking both stupid and quite a bit of an asshole at the same time. ' Now on to the actual topic. ZvZ is extremely bland and monotonous in how it plays out, its roach vs roach indeed. This is a stale meta that never seems to change, like others have said there are lots of other strategies but they are barely ever used. It was ages ago I saw mutas in ZvZ and while some players transitions a lot (Hydras or infestors) like notably all the taiwanese players in Taiwan open recently everyone always makes roaches to some extent. ZvZ having a stale meta is not in itself "bad" look at TvZ to be honest its basically MMM vs Ling/bling muta 90% of the time, do we think that is bad? Not really, the thing about roach wars are that they are bloody boring, its true. The balance at the moment is as such that if you don't make roaches in ZvZ you will die, thus everyone makes roaches. Blizzard knows this is not good and have probably thought about patches a lot but as we all know they don't like big changes before LOTV comes out. ZvZ is a bit stale at the moment, its true. However hold on! Either a patch or at the time LOTV is released everything will be changed (Hopefully ) Don't give up on the game just because this one matchup is in a bit of a slump at the moment. I agree man, guys way to be Dicks, OP HAS HIS OPINION, let him have it, dont insult him for it And he's true, ZvZ is boring, so is TvT, so is PvP, basically pros are so good, they (most of the time) mirror what the other guy is doing, like PvP, Colossi wars, OR Archon/Immortal/Zealot vs Archon/Immortal/Zealot; TvT, Marine Tank transitioned from maybe a different early game cuz of Harrassment; ZvZ Roach wars with Hydras or Infestors, even worse Nerchio vs Stephano Season 2 (SH vs SH, YAY HOW FUN IS THAT?????!!!!!), ALL MIRROR MATCHUPS CAN BE BORING, and trust me, ZvZ currently is the least interesting, even PvP has some variation like Rain vs Zest, PartinG vs herO or Zest vs sOs in Proleague. ZvZ ( and to a lsser extent, TvT) =basically SAME COMPOSITION for both players | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
On August 10 2014 21:27 TokyoGirl wrote: yea it sucks. i blame it on the infestor nerf and spore crawler buff I blame mutalisk regeneration | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:23 lichter wrote: as lord of best games i give ZvZ a 3/5 That's higher than I expected | ||
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Faefae
2203 Posts
Yeah, what would you give to the other mirrors mu ? | ||
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( bush
321 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:14 mabla wrote: Luckily this game doesn't depend on viewers below GM to stay relevant. #rekt You can't say people don't realise what's going on just because you follow a build order to mass up your roaches, dumbfuck. User was warned for this post | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:19 Shuffleblade wrote: While true to some extent it is baffling how strong the roach meta has becomes and how it won't go away. You are half right and half wrong, these kinds of "meta" finding out the ultimate way of doing something and doing it over and over, It will lead to everyone doing that, if everyone does it than you can pretty much figure out what your opponent is going to do and blind counter it. This is how the meta change, people learn how to counter the most popular strategy and then people will stop doing it because it doesn't work anymore. This is what happened when Z started doing 3 hatch before pool vs P greedy openings back in the day, thus out greeding them blindly. For a meta to stay as long and tenaciously like this one is rare and in my opinion shows something is wrong with the game. If you can't counter his strat (without going for the same strat) when knowing exactly what he's going to do then its something seriously wrong. I agree the roach meta has been rather tenacious, but I honestly don't think its as prevalent as the OP makes it out to be. | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:28 Faefae wrote: Yeah, what would you give to the other mirrors mu ? PvP 2/5 ZvZ 1.5/5 TvT 4.5/5 | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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TokyoGirl
Japan116 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:24 Dingodile wrote: more frustrating than roach vs roach is/are the super random shots from wm at TvZ. Very unpredictable if you play ling+bling against wm. wm is ok against all other zerg units. micro against wm doesnt help anything if wm are sitting on intelligent places. (1) What happens if cooldown is gone and there are already 2 (split) lings within that area? which ling is going to die? (2) What happens if wm detect first ling but killed by other units before wm begins to attack (due to 1,5sec delay), 1,5 sec later there are 10000 lings+blings in that area, where will be the rocket hitting? (3) If terran is microing his wm, zerg will never know/notice that. Zerg only know if it had already hitted but this is too way late. Don't response with "1,5sec delay tells it", How do you know it was as (2) or (3) from Zerg perspective? You have to see it from Zerg and Terran perspective, not as a casual bystander. (1) and (2) are fucking frustrating for both players because of the random shots. You see thats what excite viewers. viewerss like to see those WM that kills 50 units with one shot (imba or not imba), it creates a lot of suspense and excitement. But when you watch ZvZ its usually ling/bane and it ends in roach wars with one player winning with better decision making. you don't really need to watch the rest of the game to know how its going to end. Again this is from a spectators point of view. | ||
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Faefae
2203 Posts
Seems legit ! Personnally i'd rate PvP a bit higher these days. 2.5? 3? Something like that | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
as lr bonjwa you are in charge of hype and those grades arent very hype | ||
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[BSP]Kain
119 Posts
Muta meta was so fun back in the days, although a bit too strong. :< | ||
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Holdenintherye
Canada1441 Posts
edit: it's much better than ZvZ early HotS when the player with 1 more muta would automatically win. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
(A) Creep has a color tint to indicate which player made it, and (B) Only the player who made creep gets a speed bonus while moving over it With those simple changes, you would have a greater defender's advantage, more strategic creep, and a better looking game. As it is now, all the ugly little roaches kind of blend in together on the ugly creep, and it's difficult for spectators to enjoy watching or even know where one blob of roaches ends and another begins. Grey creep, grey roaches, green acid . . . meh. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia987 Posts
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
- Terran Player: TvT > ZvZ and PvP - Protoss Player: PvP > ZvZ and TvT - Zerg Player: ZvZ > TvT and PvP ez | ||
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Fusa
Canada148 Posts
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:51 SuperHofmann wrote: How people's mind work: - Terran Player: TvT > ZvZ and PvP - Protoss Player: PvP > ZvZ and TvT - Zerg Player: ZvZ > TvT and PvP ez 90% wrong from Zerg and Protoss Player. | ||
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Faefae
2203 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:51 SuperHofmann wrote: How people's mind work: - Terran Player: TvT > ZvZ and PvP - Protoss Player: PvP > ZvZ and TvT - Zerg Player: ZvZ > TvT and PvP ez No, I don't think that is true, when there were polls on TL, TvT was the best rated mirror And there is ~32% of terran player in sc2 | ||
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Blargh
United States2101 Posts
Though, tons of ZvZs end from one guy messing up the first major engagement and it snowballing. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10668 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:07 Devolved wrote: I never claimed to be a top masters or even good at this game. Please don't put words into my mouth that were never spoken such as "I know everything" and "I would win if I only tried." I never spoke these words nor have I implied such. My commentary comes mainly from watching games as-of-late. If this is supposed to be a spectator-friendly e-sport videogame, then something really needs to be done about the ZvZ matchup, because at this point I'm just turning off the stream when another ZvZ match happens unless it's one of my absolute favorite players. have you ever heard of speedling baneling mutalisk? Because I win almost all my ZvZ's still with it. If ZvZ is boring or mundane for you than play a different race or stop playing boring and mundane. Just because YOU think there is only one way to play the game, doesn't mean that it's true. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On August 10 2014 21:24 Devolved wrote: I took a break from SC2 a while back, but since I have come back I've been watching a lot of tournament streams to get caught up on strategies and just the scene in general. Every single ZvZ I've seen (and there's been a ton of them) is just the same Roach vs. Roach battle with maybe some Hydras mixed in for some extra DPS. It's boring, it's repetitive, and if this is the future of SC2 I don't know why I even bothered returning. How fucking boring is it to max on 1 (or 2 if you're really playing out-of-the-box) units and just bang your head against your opponent's same composition over and over until 1 person finally gets a bit of an edge and wins the game? This is not strategy. It is mundane repetitive mechanical bullshit, and it's something I can easily do without. So all you do is watch streams and you feel it's boring. I would say you should a take a break from SC2 permanently but it appears that you don't even play the game. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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