EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 439
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Mc
332 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
Last week, when Irma Krat informed her friends in Kiev, her hometown, that she was heading to eastern Ukraine to report on the region’s separatists, some of them tried to talk her out of it. As a journalist and activist with ties to nationalism in Ukraine, Krat had played an active role in the country’s revolution this winter, one of the few women to serve in the militia forces of the Maidan protest camp in Kiev. In the eyes of the separatist forces, that would make her a target, and her friends were right to be concerned. When she arrived this past weekend in the separatist-held town of Slavyansk, in eastern Ukraine, she was almost immediately seized by armed men and taken to their security headquarters for interrogation. She seems to be a valuable trophy for the separatists; she is the first captive they have decided to parade before the press. But she is not the only one they have taken. The detention of Ukrainian citizens in the town of Slavyansk has added a new element to the ongoing conflict in the country’s eastern regions. Apart from the armed standoff between separatists and government forces, the conflict has now become a hostage crisis, which has piled more public pressure on Ukraine’s military to take back control of eastern regions by force. But if the army does engage the separatists in battle, Russia has threatened to intervene on their behalf, potentially sparking a full-scale war in Europe that will resonate across the continent. Warning, graphic images: Ukrainian reporter blindfolded and abducted by pro-Russian separatists | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On April 21 2014 15:09 Ghanburighan wrote: Wow, some people can spout conspiracy nonsense at will with not a shred of evidence. You know, if the CIA were running an entire country in the middle of Europe (despite the fact that Obama is not even remotely interested in the region), I think you'd find some credible sources to prove it... But you can't, because it's nonsense. And coming from people that actually interact with the US admin, your claims are beyond laughable. They don't even have enough eyes on the ground in the region to know who's who... We need to give THEM intel all the time. The evidence is clear as can be, unless you want to believe that Russia is evil and out to get you, etc. Everything about the Maidan has the CIA's mark on it - style, motive, characteristic flaws in execution, intended result, political response. The fact that there isn't direct, indisputable evidence is a testament to the fact that the CIA isn't so incompetent as to let that surface so quickly (although they certainly did make such blunders in the past, ex: Cuba meddlings). | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
you were doing the same act in syrian civil war thread, buying into washingtons deceitful conspiracy theory through press release as proof while denouncing sceptics as conspiracy theorists and trolls. hindsight is supposed to be 20/20, but here you are again. cia running ukraine seems far-fetched, but neither me nor legallord (i think) claimed they were. i think you will concede that they were involved in ukraine before brennan visited kiev, and it's obvious which horse they are backing. that would be the one with the nazi symbolism painted on its sides, doing sieg-heils in front of a bandera banner. who was behind the maidan shootings still an open question, but it should make you worried that their general prosecutor (svoboda) seems to be lying about the investigation and is stone-walling the lawyers of the victims as if he has something to hide. if indeed far-right elements were behind it, cia being implicated at some level shouldn't come as a surprise. edit: legallord's speculation was a bit more involved than mine, not to his detriment though. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On April 21 2014 21:51 LegalLord wrote: The evidence is clear as can be, unless you want to believe that Russia is evil and out to get you, etc. Everything about the Maidan has the CIA's mark on it - style, motive, characteristic flaws in execution, intended result, political response. The fact that there isn't direct, indisputable evidence is a testament to the fact that the CIA isn't so incompetent as to let that surface so quickly (although they certainly did make such blunders in the past, ex: Cuba meddlings). I can see where you are coming from, but you previously held the position that: On April 21 2014 03:41 LegalLord wrote: ... Everything is staged by Russia when that's what you so very dearly want to believe I suppose. Everything is staged by CIA when that's what you so very dearly want to believe I suppose? I think the situations are very odd, but saying it is CIA or Russia controlling their puppets is about the same. It is the exact same type of theories whether you claim one side or the other did it. I don't see enough evidence presented for either of the specific postulates to graduate from conspiracy theory... | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On April 21 2014 15:37 Ghanburighan wrote: ^Disgusting The photo of the bearded man is not the same man. See for yourself in these images (Including High-Res versions of the same photos released by Ukraine) that have not been artificially reduced in resolution. redditThe Russian soldier in Georgia (same photo but in higher resolution, wonder why it was intentionally diminished?) http://i.imgur.com/AkckFq6.jpg The soldier / separatist in Ukraine: http://i.imgur.com/p8fWOh5.jpg http://i.imgur.com/J8WvkND.jpg Edit: Another clear photo of the person in question http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/13/article-2603613-1D13AEC800000578-253_964x629.jpg Another point is that the article claims one of the photos was taken in Russian some time ago by a reconnaissance unit, in the high resolution photo you can see they are wearing the ribbon that signifies they are part of the separatist forces which either means they have been role playing (and then uploading it to VKontake) for quite some time or somebody is playing fast and loose with the truth (probably the originator of this dossier). seems like propaganda, nytimes being nytimes. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On April 21 2014 22:42 radiatoren wrote: I can see where you are coming from, but you previously held the position that: Everything is staged by CIA when that's what you so very dearly want to believe I suppose? I think the situations are very odd, but saying it is CIA or Russia controlling their puppets is about the same. It is the exact same type of theories whether you claim one side or the other did it. I don't see enough evidence presented for either of the specific postulates to graduate from conspiracy theory... Except those "seperatists" have russian accents, russian army weapons, russian army uniforms, and have been caught speaking to russian army generals, whereas none of the maiden people are walking around with m4's or talking to CIA agents or any american generals. But who cares about some pesky facts, right? | ||
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sgtnoobkilla
Australia249 Posts
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On April 21 2014 23:33 hunts wrote: Except those "seperatists" have russian accents, russian army weapons, russian army uniforms, and have been caught speaking to russian army generals, whereas none of the maiden people are walking around with m4's or talking to CIA agents or any american generals. But who cares about some pesky facts, right? brennan personally flew over to kiev to give yarosh a 'job well done' backrub. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On April 21 2014 23:33 hunts wrote: Except those "seperatists" have russian accents, russian army weapons, russian army uniforms, and have been caught speaking to russian army generals, whereas none of the maiden people are walking around with m4's or talking to CIA agents or any american generals. But who cares about some pesky facts, right? You misunderstand. The specific postulates are the russian spetsnaz acting as agent provocateur by killing separatists and letting evidence for them being paid US mercenaries lie around. And the CIA arming, training and in other ways helping Pravda Sector to violently overthrow Yanukovych under which a sniper is being agent provocateur by shooting protesters. Both those specific postulates are unsubstantiated. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
I was also right to call the people saying that Syria does not have chemical weapons, and that the US/CIA planted the evidence there as conspiracy theorists. The UN, Assad himself and even the Russians agreed that there was a chemical weapons violation, hence they made the deal to remove those weapons from Syria. Once, again, though, Russia and Assad failed to uphold their part of the deal and there are recent reports of chemical weapons being used in Syria. You're somehow trying shame me personally for talking about facts, and bringing up the most reputable sources I can find. Yet, you still prefer your `alternative news sources'... As for the NYT article, I don't know whether that one dude with a beard is the same and just more fat now (6 years later), or a different guy. But the pictures clearly show that he is wearing similar clothes, similar weapons, and similar gear. I think the most important aspect is that these green men appeared in Crimea wearing similar gear. First Russia said it wasn't involved, then Putin admitted that he sent in troops to Crimea to oversee the election (i.e., he sent an invading force to coerce an annexation). Now, these same green men appear all over Eastern Ukraine, and once again Russia says he doesn't know anything about them... But I'd rather not wait until the annexations happen on May 11th for Putin to admit that he sent the same troops North. *** Continued crack-down on free journalism in Russia-controlled areas: | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
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kukarachaa
United States284 Posts
On April 21 2014 23:33 hunts wrote: Except those "seperatists" have russian accents, russian army weapons, russian army uniforms, and have been caught speaking to russian army generals, whereas none of the maiden people are walking around with m4's or talking to CIA agents or any american generals. But who cares about some pesky facts, right? Except those "seperatists" have russian accents What accents are they supposed to have? Except those "seperatists" have russian army weapons Once again, I am confused what weapons are they supposed to have? There are new models that are not available for export and are limited strictly to the Russian army, I have yet to see any of those in Ukraine. Except those "seperatists" have russian army uniforms In Crimea Russian Army troops easily stood out based on their attire, I have yet to see the same uniforms in Ukraine. There are groups that are wearing matching camo different from Russian Army, those can easily be explained. There are many videos on youtube of SBU buildings being raided and plenty of tactical gear being appropriated by the separatists, including uniforms, weapons, night vision goggles and plenty of other stuff. Except those "seperatists" have been caught speaking to russian army generals, Unless I missed something, all that is known is that they had a conversation with someone whose phone had a Russian area code. If you could explain to me how you made a leap from that, to a Russian general feel free to do so. whereas none of the maiden people are walking around with m4's or talking to CIA agents or any american generals. Funny you should say that. Russian intelligence leaked that John Brennan CIA director was visiting Kiev, and eventually after many "No Comment" statements, White house admitted it. You also have a very strange definition of "pesky fact". | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
“I honestly have no idea what happened,” Postol said. “My view when I started this process was that it couldn’t be anything but the Syrian government behind the attack. But now I’m not sure of anything. The administration narrative was not even close to reality. Our intelligence cannot possibly be correct.” miami heraldi think you have to be slightly naive if you think that us just had amazingly bad intelligence wrt to the gas attacks, and that it was not another conscious effort to deceive the public (perps would then be among others us intelligence). this is also reinforced by the seymour hersh article. in any case it's ridic that you label other ppl as conspiracy theorists, when you so readily buy into conspiracy theories yourself as long as it comes in the form of a washington press release. it's not the same guy, that is perfectly clear, don't be coy. they're both wearing military fatigues and they both have beards. that's where the similarities stop. nyt has a record of printing warmonger propaganda, they're not a reliable source in this context. | ||
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BeaSteR
Sweden328 Posts
Whenever a faulty Russian action is pointed out pro-Russians point to: but the US did that and that. So the US acting police means Russia can behave however it pleases? Ukraine/Kiev = US? Seriously how can anyone believe that the demonstrations leading up to Yanukovych leaving was because of some western conspiracy?? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21963 Posts
On April 22 2014 00:44 BeaSteR wrote: It is amusing following this thread seeing nunez and LegalLord time and time again come to the aid of Russia. The thread has derailed into two sides throwing dirt at each other. Yes svoboda and the "neo-nazis" are bad, but is it not equally bad for heavily armed men to claim government buildings and take hostages? A more nuanced discussion from the pro-Russians please, can you admit that Russia did anything wrong? Whenever a faulty Russian action is pointed out pro-Russians point to: but the US did that and that. So the US acting police means Russia can behave however it pleases? Ukraine/Kiev = US? Seriously how can anyone believe that the demonstrations leading up to Yanukovych leaving was because of some western conspiracy?? Its funny to see these CIA conspiracy's when the only way for EuroMadian to grow as big as it did was for Yanokovich to aggressively try to disperse said protests. Unless ofcourse he is the CIA spy in all this, it all makes sense now... | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On April 21 2014 22:42 radiatoren wrote: I can see where you are coming from, but you previously held the position that: Everything is staged by CIA when that's what you so very dearly want to believe I suppose? I think the situations are very odd, but saying it is CIA or Russia controlling their puppets is about the same. It is the exact same type of theories whether you claim one side or the other did it. I don't see enough evidence presented for either of the specific postulates to graduate from conspiracy theory... I don't have any particular bias against the CIA, but it's well known that that's what they do. The specific scenario that unfolded in the Maidan has the mark of a CIA job, not that of Russian meddling, specifically due to timing and due to the mistakes they made. Obviously there's no proof, but in a situation like this it's hard for there to be. It's more of a feeling based on historical factors. Not sure whether I believe the CIA is controlling things, but I'm quite sure they played a part in the timing and the results of the Maidan protests. Probably hired mercenary snipers as well. On April 22 2014 00:44 BeaSteR wrote: It is amusing following this thread seeing nunez and LegalLord time and time again come to the aid of Russia. The thread has derailed into two sides throwing dirt at each other. Yes svoboda and the "neo-nazis" are bad, but is it not equally bad for heavily armed men to claim government buildings and take hostages? A more nuanced discussion from the pro-Russians please, can you admit that Russia did anything wrong? Whenever a faulty Russian action is pointed out pro-Russians point to: but the US did that and that. So the US acting police means Russia can behave however it pleases? Ukraine/Kiev = US? Seriously how can anyone believe that the demonstrations leading up to Yanukovych leaving was because of some western conspiracy?? I'm not a fan of vigilante justice as in the case of separatist hostages, but I don't feel the need to talk about that. No one here is defending those actions. | ||
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RolleMcKnolle
Germany1054 Posts
On April 22 2014 00:50 Gorsameth wrote: Its funny to see these CIA conspiracy's when the only way for EuroMadian to grow as big as it did was for Yanokovich to aggressively try to disperse said protests. Unless ofcourse he is the CIA spy in all this, it all makes sense now... actually he wasn't all that aggressive in dispersing the maidan. There where those famous shots but still noone really knows who fired them. Despite that there was way less police violence then you would have in for example Germany with way less threatening scenarios. Some reactions of Hamburgs police force during 1st May protests were way more drastic than anything done against the Maidan protesters. Sometimes during the protests I was wondering whether we should ask for Ukrainian police here in Germany, it would be way more peaceful. | ||
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