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On March 19 2014 08:40 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 07:20 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 19 2014 07:12 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 07:06 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Why do everyone here think that Russia is completely against the West?
If Russia finally positions herself as "I was on my knees for so many years, let's get up and show that I have brains and pride as well", it's not same to say that "Russia is absolutely anti-Western".
Seriously, sometimes i just wonder why noone brought an argument that we have bears on the streets.
In current world, everything is linked. We can't just drop Europe, Russia, China or US and expect same results.
You can get up and try to maneuver yourself into a global power without all the propaganda Russia is using and without having to turn into a dictatorship with no freedom of speech where political opponents live in fear of there lives. It's like other countries don't use propaganda. It's just part of political strategy, deal with it. It was always, it is and it will be. Easiest way to achieve something. Who lives in fear of lives lol? Navalny? He was freed already once by prosecutorship, no reason to think that he will be jailed. And whole Bolotnoe file is just farce. I will never believe that you can't solve it in 3 years with staying on same place. It's just impossible. Don't get me wrong, i'm not defending everything what is happening here, but still. The only other countries with as extreme of propaganda as russia are china and north korea, possibly some other dictator countries.
It has more to do with different forms of propaganda. The american soft power or "coerseduction" is not comparable to Russian attemps at propaganda.
What we can compare is how they treat the flow of information, and though Russia is clearly extreme in its actions (RT being state-owned, for example), the american media is very rarely critical of its own government when considering the most popular sources of information - Fox News, CNN, MSNBC.
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Very rarely critical of its own government?
Depends which parts of it.
I'm pretty sure Fox news insults Obama (the president) every hour, many times an hour. As part of the power struggle between the parties, it's not that surprising really; and fox news makes its money by being a partisan source that caters to a certain worldview.
Congress has like a 10% approval rating as a whole.
Hating on congress is VERY common over here.
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On March 19 2014 08:51 zlefin wrote:
Very rarely critical of its own government?
Depends which parts of it.
I'm pretty sure Fox news insults Obama (the president) every hour, many times an hour. As part of the power struggle between the parties, it's not that surprising really; and fox news makes its money by being a partisan source that caters to a certain worldview.
Congress has like a 10% approval rating as a whole.
Hating on congress is VERY common over here.
Our govt. literally acts like middle schoolers. Fairly similar across the board, but one group will often oppose the other just for the sole purpose of opposing them. Very immature, but I guess this is how some lawyers-turned-politicians prefer to do things. I just don't understand how they think this is a proper model by which to function.
Very true that Congress isn't very much liked nowadays. People are becoming more mistrustful. It also doesn't help Congress' reputation that once you're in the HoR or Senate, there's a good chance you're in for life.
Our weak variants of propaganda served pretty well in the past, but over the last decade, it appears it is no longer effective. We may have to borrow a few tricks from Russia haha. I'm joking, but public opinion in the US was nowhere what it was in the very recent past.
Wow, right-wing extremists are really coming out of the woodwork now. How can they think beating and intimidating someone like this is a good idea and be expected to be considered a legitimate political party? More problems for Ukraine, as if Russia didn't add enough.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
Thank God, at least it will be punished.
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On March 19 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Wow, right-wing extremists are really coming out of the woodwork now. How can they think beating and intimidating someone like this is a good idea and be expected to be considered a legitimate political party? More problems for Ukraine, as if Russia didn't add enough.
You answered your own question, they really are extremist scum which is why they werent a legitimate party until '12 elections and why their leader trails Yanukovich in polls for president. Which if you think about it, thats pretty impressive in its own way.
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On March 19 2014 09:18 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Wow, right-wing extremists are really coming out of the woodwork now. How can they think beating and intimidating someone like this is a good idea and be expected to be considered a legitimate political party? More problems for Ukraine, as if Russia didn't add enough. You answered your own question, they really are extremist scum which is why they werent a legitimate party until '12 elections and why their leader trails Yanukovich in polls for president. Which if you think about it, thats pretty impressive in its own way.
I don't know which polls you're referring to exactly and how they fared (I take it was pretty bad?), but Svoboda got 4th in the last parliamentary elections. That alone should be cause for concern in my honest opinion.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 19 2014 09:30 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 09:18 Sub40APM wrote:On March 19 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Wow, right-wing extremists are really coming out of the woodwork now. How can they think beating and intimidating someone like this is a good idea and be expected to be considered a legitimate political party? More problems for Ukraine, as if Russia didn't add enough. You answered your own question, they really are extremist scum which is why they werent a legitimate party until '12 elections and why their leader trails Yanukovich in polls for president. Which if you think about it, thats pretty impressive in its own way. I don't know which polls you're referring to exactly and how they fared (I take it was pretty bad?), but Svoboda got 4th in the last parliamentary elections. That alone should be cause for concern in my honest opinion.
Tyagnibok might actually trail Yanukovich right now.
If i'm right in that idea, that's more impressive than such scum is still alive in this world.
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On March 19 2014 09:30 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 09:18 Sub40APM wrote:On March 19 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Wow, right-wing extremists are really coming out of the woodwork now. How can they think beating and intimidating someone like this is a good idea and be expected to be considered a legitimate political party? More problems for Ukraine, as if Russia didn't add enough. You answered your own question, they really are extremist scum which is why they werent a legitimate party until '12 elections and why their leader trails Yanukovich in polls for president. Which if you think about it, thats pretty impressive in its own way. I don't know which polls you're referring to exactly and how they fared (I take it was pretty bad?), but Svoboda got 4th in the last parliamentary elections. That alone should be cause for concern in my honest opinion.
To be fair that means they got like 5% of the votes. That's obviously a really bad thing, but given the fact that it's a second world country during a revolution it's also not incredibly much.
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On March 19 2014 09:35 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 09:30 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 19 2014 09:18 Sub40APM wrote:On March 19 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Wow, right-wing extremists are really coming out of the woodwork now. How can they think beating and intimidating someone like this is a good idea and be expected to be considered a legitimate political party? More problems for Ukraine, as if Russia didn't add enough. You answered your own question, they really are extremist scum which is why they werent a legitimate party until '12 elections and why their leader trails Yanukovich in polls for president. Which if you think about it, thats pretty impressive in its own way. I don't know which polls you're referring to exactly and how they fared (I take it was pretty bad?), but Svoboda got 4th in the last parliamentary elections. That alone should be cause for concern in my honest opinion. To be fair that means they got like 5% of the votes. That's obviously a really bad thing, but given the fact that it's a second world country during a revolution it's also not incredibly much.
I'm confused. In the 2012 parliamentary elections, they won 10% of the vote. Are you implying their popularity may have risen during this Euromaidan/revolution period?
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On March 19 2014 09:30 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 09:18 Sub40APM wrote:On March 19 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Wow, right-wing extremists are really coming out of the woodwork now. How can they think beating and intimidating someone like this is a good idea and be expected to be considered a legitimate political party? More problems for Ukraine, as if Russia didn't add enough. You answered your own question, they really are extremist scum which is why they werent a legitimate party until '12 elections and why their leader trails Yanukovich in polls for president. Which if you think about it, thats pretty impressive in its own way. I don't know which polls you're referring to exactly and how they fared (I take it was pretty bad?), but Svoboda got 4th in the last parliamentary elections. That alone should be cause for concern in my honest opinion.
http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=240&page=1
Тягнибок Олег is the Svoboda douche.
In the last poll I remember reading before the invasion, Yanukovich was at like 4.5% in an all Ukraine poll. Yarosh was at like 3%.
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Will European Union really accept Ukranie as a member state? The situation in PIGS is not good yet by any means.
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On March 19 2014 09:41 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 09:35 Nyxisto wrote:On March 19 2014 09:30 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 19 2014 09:18 Sub40APM wrote:On March 19 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Wow, right-wing extremists are really coming out of the woodwork now. How can they think beating and intimidating someone like this is a good idea and be expected to be considered a legitimate political party? More problems for Ukraine, as if Russia didn't add enough. You answered your own question, they really are extremist scum which is why they werent a legitimate party until '12 elections and why their leader trails Yanukovich in polls for president. Which if you think about it, thats pretty impressive in its own way. I don't know which polls you're referring to exactly and how they fared (I take it was pretty bad?), but Svoboda got 4th in the last parliamentary elections. That alone should be cause for concern in my honest opinion. To be fair that means they got like 5% of the votes. That's obviously a really bad thing, but given the fact that it's a second world country during a revolution it's also not incredibly much. I'm confused. In the 2012 parliamentary elections, they won 10% of the vote. Are you implying their popularity may have risen during this Euromaidan/revolution period?
They won 10% of the vote but that made him the 5th most popular party, behind even the Communists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2012
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On March 19 2014 09:41 niukasu1990 wrote:
Will European Union really accept Ukranie as a member state? The situation in PIGS is not good yet by any means.
Not for like 20-30 years, but it doesnt matter, they will force them to jump through a lot of reforms hoops as part of the deal to ascend and Ukraine needs to jump through those hoops to break out of its shit status.
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On March 19 2014 09:41 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 09:35 Nyxisto wrote:On March 19 2014 09:30 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 19 2014 09:18 Sub40APM wrote:On March 19 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Wow, right-wing extremists are really coming out of the woodwork now. How can they think beating and intimidating someone like this is a good idea and be expected to be considered a legitimate political party? More problems for Ukraine, as if Russia didn't add enough. You answered your own question, they really are extremist scum which is why they werent a legitimate party until '12 elections and why their leader trails Yanukovich in polls for president. Which if you think about it, thats pretty impressive in its own way. I don't know which polls you're referring to exactly and how they fared (I take it was pretty bad?), but Svoboda got 4th in the last parliamentary elections. That alone should be cause for concern in my honest opinion. To be fair that means they got like 5% of the votes. That's obviously a really bad thing, but given the fact that it's a second world country during a revolution it's also not incredibly much. I'm confused. In the 2012 parliamentary elections, they won 10% of the vote. Are you implying their popularity may have risen during this Euromaidan/revolution period?
No sorry, I was just mistaken about the numbers. Well 10% is quite a lot. But they probably also gained a lot of momentum during the revolution period, especially in West Ukraine.
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On March 19 2014 09:41 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 09:30 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 19 2014 09:18 Sub40APM wrote:On March 19 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Wow, right-wing extremists are really coming out of the woodwork now. How can they think beating and intimidating someone like this is a good idea and be expected to be considered a legitimate political party? More problems for Ukraine, as if Russia didn't add enough. You answered your own question, they really are extremist scum which is why they werent a legitimate party until '12 elections and why their leader trails Yanukovich in polls for president. Which if you think about it, thats pretty impressive in its own way. I don't know which polls you're referring to exactly and how they fared (I take it was pretty bad?), but Svoboda got 4th in the last parliamentary elections. That alone should be cause for concern in my honest opinion. http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=240&page=1Тягнибок Олег is the Svoboda douche. In the last poll I remember reading before the invasion, Yanukovich was at like 4.5% in an all Ukraine poll. Yarosh was at like 3%.
Yes, thank you for this.
On March 19 2014 09:43 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 09:41 niukasu1990 wrote:
Will European Union really accept Ukranie as a member state? The situation in PIGS is not good yet by any means. Not for like 20-30 years, but it doesnt matter, they will force them to jump through a lot of reforms hoops as part of the deal to ascend and Ukraine needs to jump through those hoops to break out of its shit status.
What do you think would happen if the Russians stopped playing Catherine the Great, NATO was dissolved, and there was more military parity between Russia and other European nations? Do you think there would be a chance for Russia to join the EU?
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
After reading press-release i have only one question. Okay, two.
Yatsenyuk srsly won't go on elections or he has 0 popularity?
And if those numbers are close to real world (i assume that they are), i imagine, what will happen in second tour of elections.
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On March 19 2014 09:51 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
After reading press-release i have only one question. Okay, two.
Yatsenyuk srsly won't go on elections or he has 0 popularity?
And if those numbers are close to real world (i assume that they are), i imagine, what will happen in second tour of elections.
No, I think he wants to be the interim PM, but my guess is that whoever wins will then either just name him his own PM or will call for parliament elections since the constitutional reforms have reverted Ukraine from a strong presidential system to a parliamentary system and he will hope to win the PM from there.
Its not really clear, obviously the Russian invasion complicated things but also the Party of the Region is now in disarray. The leaders Azarenkov and Yanukovich have been shown to be corrupt so you dont know who to vote for. Thats why so many are saying 'vote against all' or 'I dont know enough'. Its also difficult for party of the regions because it was a much more top down party, so if your entire leadership is either in Russia/hated by most Ukrainians or unsure what happens next (What if Russia does invade, do you really want to be the candidate for Ukrainian presidential elections and risk being kept out of power in new 'russian territory'? So the biggest Party of Regions guy I know who is considering running is the mayor of kharkiv?)
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On March 19 2014 02:57 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 02:37 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 19 2014 02:10 semantics wrote:On March 19 2014 01:56 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Why is this even a debate? If it came to a fair plebiscite, there is no doubt that the majority of Crimeans would have voted to join Russia. Some basic historical and cultural knowledge of the region suffices to establish this very elementary fact. It is not due to concerns of proper procedure that the accuracy of this referendum is being disputed. It is because there are no other means by which one can attack Russia without appearing to attack the concept of self-determination and popular sovereignty.
It is time to be honest with ourselves, and confess that Gladstonian moralism, elevated to political supremacy through the 20th century, has not made the world a more enchanting place. False antecedent leads to false consequence. History and cultural doesn't make national identity, rather national identity influences culture and history. What was does not predetermine what always is, nations rise and fall and although there is a considerable history between russia and crimea not all of it is good from the point of view of crimeans. And continued russian influence in the area is only from military bases in the area, in order for russia to still hold a wet port all year round. Would you annex parts of japan to the US due to massive military presence tangential history? The US holds many cultures perhaps break the US based on cultural and historical lines, you can easily weave different threads for different sections of the US, easily breaking up the west, midwest, south, colonies and past the appalachian as all different on some level historically and culturally. You could easily break russia into 3 parts on cultural and historical divides as well. History and culture does not make national identity. It was where Vladimir the Great converted to Orthodox Christianity. It was the site of Russia's first contact with Eastern Roman Civilisation long before the Mongol incursions turned the peninsula into an Mongolian satrapy, and later an Ottoman dependency. It was not some latter-day "American trans-appalachian" territory. Its place in Russian history is far more comparable to that of Plymouth Colony. You know, if you want to act like a pretentious intellectual, a minute or two with google would do some good on topics that you are only marginally familiar with. The first known contact between Varangian Rus and Byzantium occurred either in Propontis or at the gates of Constantinople. And while Vladimir embraced Christianity in Cherson, he announced his -- and began the process of Christianinized his subjects -- in Kyiv. No Russian scholar would ever accept your analogy. The conquest of Crimea by the Tsarist state and the implied nationalistic pride in that -- and the transformation of Crimea into a Soviet resort reserved for the mid level elite of the Union -- is the origin of the emotional attachments modern Russians feel towards Crimea.
Which is the flaw he does not take into account. How Modern Crimean's feel about Russia. Even though his first quoted post just blatantly skips over, saying how they feel is obvious. Giving me the reasons why Russians feel Crimea is important, which is not in dispute, and has little to do with how Crimeans feel about Russia and weather or not they want to be a part of Russia.
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On March 19 2014 09:43 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 09:41 niukasu1990 wrote:
Will European Union really accept Ukranie as a member state? The situation in PIGS is not good yet by any means. Not for like 20-30 years, but it doesnt matter, they will force them to jump through a lot of reforms hoops as part of the deal to ascend and Ukraine needs to jump through those hoops to break out of its shit status.
I really question if the economy of Ukranie will be better with a closer relationship with EU instead of Russia. Without the lower price of gas and oil from Russia, I really doubt if the industry will survive. I hope Ukranie is not the next Greece, but I somehow believe it will be.
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EPT
