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On March 17 2014 12:33 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 12:26 LegalLord wrote:On March 17 2014 12:16 darkness wrote:On March 17 2014 12:14 LegalLord wrote:On March 17 2014 12:02 darkness wrote:On March 17 2014 11:58 LegalLord wrote:On March 17 2014 11:53 darkness wrote:On March 17 2014 11:46 LegalLord wrote:On March 17 2014 11:41 darkness wrote:On March 17 2014 11:38 LegalLord wrote:
[quote]
They don't need convincing. The Ukranian government over the past 20 years speaks for itself. While I'm not knowledgeable about the Ukrainian government for this period, I actually meant that Russia tries to come up with a reason to expand their invasion, e.g. by keep calling others fascists. Crimeans call the Ukranian government fascist too. So do a surprising number of western sources, if you look around. About the Ukranian government I will simply say this: those of non-Russian ethnicity have good reason to vote yes on the referendum. Russia is a much more stable country than Ukraine and the past 20 years have shown that. Back when the USSR collapsed, Crimea voted to join Ukraine. Now they don't, and with good reason. While a referendum itself is democratic, I personally don't think the time was right for one, especially with Russian military's presence. That's not democratic, and it smells like rigged elections. I suppose the pro-Russian enthusiasm throughout Crimea is rigged as well? There was never a question of how Crimea would vote. Not among those familiar with the situation, at any rate. I understand the majority of population is ethnic Russian, but you are ignoring the bigger picture. Russia's military presence and Ukraine's political crisis should lead to unstable, not credible elections. For a referendum to happen, all other matters should be resolved first in order to produce 'straight' votes. I hope anyone reasonable would agree with this. Just think about it. Possible analogy: 1) You vote for something. 2) You vote for something while you're at a state of anger. Which one is better? Obviously the first because you're calmed down, hence my view. Sure, we have a few decades to spare. Never mind that the longer Russia waits, the worse off Crimea becomes under the rotten Ukranian government, and even those who aren't ethnically Russian agree. Russians aren't the only pro-Russians in Crimea, not by a long shot. So why a referendum now during a political crisis? Why not a few years ago or similar? As I said, Russia is being opportunistic. And if Russia was so "good" and "here to rescue", why did it order invasion in 1944? Bulgaria had a perfectly legitimate government back then which had to be overthrown so some dumb communists could force their regime. Bulgaria was allied with the Nazis in 1944. That's a pretty good reason for military intervention, especially during a war as big as WWII. Or it was Russia's imperialistic aim but with a cover-up? Either way, I wonder if China is going to be pissed off soon. I doubt they approve if Russia keeps expanding their territory right in their face.
Or it was because when you invade someone and get your ass kicked you don't get to complain when they invade you back.
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While the Neo-Nazis did have a part in the recent turmoil that overthrew the previous Ukrainian government, they're by no means representative of any significant movement in that part of the world. In fact, even the Jewish population see the Russian use of the existence of Neo-Nazis to fan nationalistic flames and provide a focal point as a greater threat
http://www.timesofisrael.com/crimeas-sole-rabbi-advises-jews-not-to-become-targets/
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Okay so i live in siberia and when chinese here start to rant much usually a tank division will appear and the problem is settled in a democratic way. Jk you have apparently no idea what siberia looks like - there are no chinese. No more than in nebraska at least.
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On March 17 2014 13:11 juvenal wrote:
Okay so i live in siberia and when chinese here start to rant much usually a tank division will appear and the problem is settled in a democratic way. Jk you have apparently no idea what siberia looks like - there are no chinese. No more than in nebraska at least.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=82969
It’s impossible to know the exact level of Chinese migration into the Russian Far East; Russia has not run a census in over a decade. But by all indications, a significant river of people is surging across the border.
The Moscow Carnegie Center, the only organization to launch an independent study, claimed that there were about 250,000 Chinese in Russia in 1997. The Interior Ministry has claimed that there are 2 million. Other estimates place the Chinese population at 5 million.
Regardless, the Federal Migration Service fears a flood. The service has repeatedly warned that the Chinese could become the dominant ethnic group in the Russian Far East in 20 to 30 years. Such an occurrence would require an annual influx of about 250,000 to 300,000 Chinese, less than one-third the rate that Shaikin currently claims.
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It's nice of you to find an ABC news article, so independent, much truth. Unfortunately i tend to not believe articles using "claim is likely exaggerated, but..." and "by all indications" as the deduction method, it's no more than sophistic rhetoric. Federal Migration Service has been cited to worry - well good thing i can actually read them straight and this interview with their head + Show Spoiler +http://www.fms.gov.ru/press/publications/news_detail.php?ID=50877
says: "the chinese invasion in the russian far east is just a myth. There are a lot of them yes (36 863 people), but there are also, e.g., 38 999 Uzbekistan citizens here [and that does not raise any concerns]. Same picture in Vladivostok. Overall there are 201 975 chinese people currently living in Russia."
ABC should check their facts. Anyway it's got nothing to do with the Ukrainian crisis.
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Russian Federation2 Posts
In the Crimea now, festivity and rejoicing, and you can continue to feed your lies western media
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Well, when you arrange the festival, it's not surprising it happens. Not sure why you'd want to celebrate an illegal annexation though.
Calling western media liars is so trite. Can't the Russian propaganda machine come up with anything better for their lies?
Why do people join tl if they have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, and only add things that are objectively determinable to be so wrong?
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its more likely that both sides distort the truth to fit their agendas, though one side is likely better at it than the other
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Last some odd pages summed up:
-Epic troll supposedly from Russia (refuted by token Estonian and Ukrainian-descended guy alliance)
-Claims of Mexican-style mass illegal immigration by Chinese people into Russia (also refuted)
-Talks about Neo-Nazis in Western Ukraine and how the Soviets beat the Bulgarian-German fascist alliance in WW2
-Celebrations by Crimeans over their independence from Ukraine
-Islamic terrorist attacks against "evil" kuffar Christians in Russia
On March 17 2014 13:06 Kupon3ss wrote:While the Neo-Nazis did have a part in the recent turmoil that overthrew the previous Ukrainian government, they're by no means representative of any significant movement in that part of the world. In fact, even the Jewish population see the Russian use of the existence of Neo-Nazis to fan nationalistic flames and provide a focal point as a greater threat http://www.timesofisrael.com/crimeas-sole-rabbi-advises-jews-not-to-become-targets/
The fact that they're Jewish is irrelevant. No one wants war. It would be terribly destructive. That in itself would motivate anyone to be against further Russian "protection", even if Ukraine was actually brimming with Hitler worshippers. lol
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Russian Federation2 Posts
Russian reunited and it is our right. You have never been to the Crimea and know nothing about it. You can only lie about the annexation and repeating the words of a liar provocateurs. If you want the truth, come to the Crimea and you will see everything in your eyes
User was banned for this post.
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^ TL rule is that English is the language of the forum man.
Anyways, here's the link to the Google translation of the above:
+ Show Spoiler +http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C%20%D0%B8%20%D1%8D%D1%82%D0%BE%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B5%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE.%20%D0%92%D1%8B%20%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B4%D0%B0%20%D0%BD%D0%B5%20%D0%B1%D1%8B%D0%BB%D0%B8%20%D0%B2%20%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%D1%83%20%D0%B8%20%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%20%D0%BD%D0%B5%20%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%20%D0%BE%D0%B1%20%D1%8D%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC.%20%D0%92%D1%8B%20%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%20%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%20%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%20%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8E%20%D0%B8%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8F%D1%82%D1%8C%20%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%20%D0%BB%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B2%D1%8B%D1%85%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2.%20%D0%95%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B8%20%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B4%D1%8B%2C%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B6%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B5%20%D0%B2%20%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%20%D0%B8%20%D0%B2%D1%8B%20%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%B5%20%D1%83%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%20%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%20%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8
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Kind of hard given how much effort Russia has put in to attacking reporters in the Crimea. And I know quite a bit about crimea from reading about it. Why don't you bring some actual evidence and citations of your claims instead of spouting the same nonsense that has been disproven over and over and over again?
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Maybe Russia should deal with the huge movements of neo nazis and extremist nationalists in their own country first. They act as if there isnt a big problem with hate crimes in russia. Putin is trying to turn these groups attention to homosexuals so he can say "these are just people who are in favor of russian family traditions". Ukrainian neo nazists arent the only onles wearing the swastika.
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One of the scariest parts of this whole Crimean crisis is that its shown the sheer scale of nationalized outright lying in Russian media. And how the wording has gotten really violent and hostile towards Europe and US.
While media in the west has its share of lies. In my opinion western propaganda is more "skillfull" because it comes from many individuals: for example journalists and company CEO's who twist the truth, believe bad rumors and write on it and most importantly apply their own view of the world and opinion to whole networks. Compared to state controlled Putin approved party-line in Russia.
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On March 17 2014 17:22 Saihv wrote:
One of the scariest parts of this whole Crimean crisis is that its shown the sheer scale of nationalized outright lying in Russian media. And how the wording has gotten really violent and hostile towards Europe and US.
While media in the west has its share of lies. In my opinion western propaganda is more "skillfull" because it comes from many individuals: for example journalists and company CEO's who twist the truth, believe bad rumors and write on it and most importantly apply their own view of the world and opinion to whole networks. Compared to state controlled Putin approved party-line in Russia.
Vs the party line in the "west" where the coup was all fine and above board, but the referendum is illegal.
Sure, Putin may be a bad guy, but here, he is just a bad guy, along with people in the EU and USA who are also the bad guys.
Everyone is only looking at their own self interests, and deciding what is and isn't legal/legitimate based on their own preference. Russia doesn't recognise the coup, but does recognise the referendum because it benefits them.
The EU/US recognise the coup but not the referendum because it benefits them.
Really neither side gives the slightest crap about Ukraine other than as a plaything for their political Russia vs West games, and no one can act like they are in any way superior.
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On March 17 2014 17:59 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 17:22 Saihv wrote:
One of the scariest parts of this whole Crimean crisis is that its shown the sheer scale of nationalized outright lying in Russian media. And how the wording has gotten really violent and hostile towards Europe and US.
While media in the west has its share of lies. In my opinion western propaganda is more "skillfull" because it comes from many individuals: for example journalists and company CEO's who twist the truth, believe bad rumors and write on it and most importantly apply their own view of the world and opinion to whole networks. Compared to state controlled Putin approved party-line in Russia. Vs the party line in the "west" where the coup was all fine and above board, but the referendum is illegal. Sure, Putin may be a bad guy, but here, he is just a bad guy, along with people in the EU and USA who are also the bad guys. Everyone is only looking at their own self interests, and deciding what is and isn't legal/legitimate based on their own preference. Russia doesn't recognise the coup, but does recognise the referendum because it benefits them. The EU/US recognise the coup but not the referendum because it benefits them. Really neither side gives the slightest crap about Ukraine other than as a plaything for their political Russia vs West games, and no one can act like they are in any way superior.
EU/USA supported maidan and russia supported Yanukovich. Lets say everyone is supporting their side purely out of self interest. There is still one big difference. One side is using their army to invade and threaten with violence and war. Thats a big difference imo.
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Russian Federation117 Posts
On March 17 2014 09:22 YasonDinAlt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 09:11 Gorsameth wrote:On March 17 2014 09:07 YasonDinAlt wrote:
Snip very long post You deny an invasion that has clear proof. Yes Russia is allowed troops inside Crimea. No those Troops are not allowed to set up roadblocks and blockade Ukraine military installations. Therefor there is little point arguing with yet another victim of Russian propaganda. I even don`t see a reason for arguing, because we are both wictims of propaganda, me-of Russian, you-of Ucranian/European. Journalistic objectiveness is a myth. All that concerns to reality - is a media policy. Be sure I do not neglect the influence of local interpretation. I just try to show to anyone interested the other point of wiev. And by the way, those blocks you mentioned - there are no Russian military forces around there. That motion pictures from Ucranian media fill me with healthy laughter. They remind me books of Tom Clancy.
You can't recognize pure Russian vs Crimean accent? You should re-watch the videos on youtube and focus on listening to the accent. Then you go figure out if those are Russian troops.
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On March 15 2014 02:00 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 01:39 -Archangel- wrote:On March 15 2014 01:29 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 01:24 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 01:21 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 01:16 kukarachaa wrote:On March 15 2014 01:10 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 01:08 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 01:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:53 MikeMM wrote:
[quote]
I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter.
If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens.
If you disagree, you need to give reasons for it. And this `just an analyst' is pretty much any analyst i.e., expert on international law you can find. You can read the questions yourself. You can read the laws. You know that there is no Status Quo option. And you know the second option gives the Crimean govt. the means to join Russia. So the vote is illegitimate. It doesn't matter if YOU think they dare to join or not, the referendum is void. I disagree because analyst assumes that gov would decide to join Russia. He as easely could have assumed that gov would decide to stay in Ukraine given the fact that people on referendum said so. So why is there no option to maintain the current situation. Why? If they really wanted to offer an option for the Crimea people to stay with Ukraine why is there no choice that guarantees that beyond all doubt? Because they want more leverage should they stay in Ukraine, you want them to stay status quo, while the whole situation in Ukraine significantly changed. Exactly. Again why not 3 options, Join Russia, more independence, status-quo. Why is it needed for there to be only 2 options. Both of which can or will lead to joining Russia? You still haven't answer why a status quo option is impossible. Maybe because status quo in current situation is unclear term. One may think that status quo means Yanukovich is president again. Ah so by your logic, if Croatia ever gets into a government crisis it means Italy can send its troops into Istria (that is double language area and has many people of Italian origin) and then they can make a referendum there that gives two options of removing Istria from Croatia, or joining Istria to Italy? Oh and Italy had this part under its rule in past just like Russia had Crimea so that is double OK for Italy? Putin has you on some crazy drugs over there, maybe you should share some with the rest of us? Serbia did go into crisis and as a result EU divided Kosovo from Serbia. And the part about drugs is cleraly a personal offence. And moderatrs strongly suggested to avoid them.
So because US fracked up with Kosovo that means it is OK that everyone does it?
Should people all around the world start gassing millions of people of certain group just because Hitler did it?! Don't answer that...
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^ The guy is already permabanned. No point in arguing with him.
More reports coming in on the `referendum' of thugs:
I'm getting more worried for the Tatars, the real minority in danger:
Edit:
It's not showing the tweet, if that's the same for you, use this link, but remove the `-'
-https://twitter.com/CrimeaEU/status/445454796120915968
Edit2:
-https://twitter.com/whitegl/status/445487686703267840
-https://twitter.com/whitegl/status/445486711255367680
Edit3:
And now it's clear that Putin will wait to see which sanctions hit before deciding on annexing Crimea:
-https://twitter.com/bishopk/status/445496679455006720
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I didnt know that crimeas maritime zones and other parts of the black sea contains alot of valuable natural resources that would be worth fighting for. I havent seen this brought up before.
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EPT
