EPTAlso, looks like the ship that got issued the ultimatum plans to fight:
Ukraine Crisis - Page 158
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
Also, looks like the ship that got issued the ultimatum plans to fight: | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
On March 04 2014 02:56 r.Evo wrote: ...lead America to where exactly this time? Also FYI you just called the NATO pointless. Read what I wrote again. Even if Ukraine was in NATO, no one in Europe would help (I meant Europeans). America isn't in Europe. NATO isn't pointless because of the United States. Just like the Warsaw Pact wasn't pointless because of the Soviet Union. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:00 BronzeKnee wrote: Read what I wrote again. Even if Ukraine was in NATO, no one in Europe would help (I meant Europeans). America isn't in Europe. NATO isn't pointless because of the United States. NATO works on the basis of consensus votes. Either everyone acts or no-one. I'm confident that the Baltic states and Poland would do everything to help, if not, they're next. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:00 BronzeKnee wrote: Read what I wrote again. Even if Ukraine was in NATO, no one in Europe would help (I meant Europeans). America isn't in Europe. NATO isn't pointless because of the United States. Just like the Warsaw Pact wasn't pointless because of the Soviet Union. What are you even talking about. If a NATO member is attacked all other NATO states are legally bound to help. If you declare war on one NATO member you're at war with all of them. That's the whole point of the pact. Edit: FYI the NATO was founded in 1949. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:02 Ghanburighan wrote: NATO works on the basis of consensus votes. Either everyone acts or no-one. I'm confident that the Baltic states and Poland would do everything to help, if not, they're next. NATO has never been tested to this degree. When the going gets tough, a lot of people bail out. Remember what happened to Poland in 1939. Let me quote the Anglo-Polish military alliance again, since people don't seem to understand how politics works: ... in the event of any action which clearly threatened Polish independence, and which the Polish Government accordingly considered it vital to resist with their national forces, His Majesty's Government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power. They have given the Polish Government an assurance to this effect. Did "His Majesty's Government feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power"? They did absolutely nothing. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On March 04 2014 02:42 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: I'm not sure if you're trying to be a sarcastic dude or not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_variants_of_Soviet_military_equipment It's surprising how few people who love to bash Russia but don't know nothing about one of the things they're most known for: their large-scale military exports. USSR/Russia has things they use in their own military. If they want to sell them, they'll develop export variants that are a lot cheaper and a lot more inferior. As I recall, the development of such variants came out of the motivation to have highly and easily produced variants in case of nuclear war where heavier development would be far more difficult due to the destruction of facilities manufacturing highly-advanced models starting in the post-WW2 era. It built into the Soviets' budding military export scheme, and also served the motivation of protecting their technology from insecure third world countries that could easily have it secured/taken by other countries. This is something I knew ever since I learned anything about Russian military tech and it was put straight in front of me. It's no secret, quite the opposite if anything. You know, you can use google yourself, too  Which might all be true but it doesn't change the fact that while the russians have some newer tanks, their equipment is still 70-80% last generation gear. They drive around maybe 500 t-90's on an active tank fleet of maybe 2.7k, the rest being t-72's or worse. When it comes to their air assets the situation gets even worse, and that's not even taking into consideration that they have always been technologically behind on the west. Place a 4th gen western fighter vs a 4th gen russian fighter and I know where I'm putting my money. After that, you get basic concerns of professionalism, unit cohesion and conscription and you end up with an army that seems pretty damn large but is operationally not all that capable. 2008 showed that pretty clearly. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
The Polish Foreign Minister, Radoslaw Sikorski, tells the BBC: "My biggest fear is that the Russian authorities believe their own propaganda and make fatal mistakes that open the gates of hell." Thats the problem with people who live in a parallel information universe, at least some of them really believe that Nazi Fascist Junta Puppets of NATO Imperialists are behind all of this, after all when was the last time Russians demonstrated for freedom and won? 1991? Most of the soldiers currently invading Ukraine probably werent even born back then. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:03 BronzeKnee wrote: NATO has never been tested to this degree. When the going gets tough, a lot of people bail out. Remember what happened to Poland in 1939. Let me quote this again, since people don't seem to understand how politics works: Do we all remember the Anglo-Polish military alliance? Did "His Majesty's Government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power"? They did absolutely nothing. You're basically just making an empty claim contradicted by everything we know about NATO and its history. An example from pre-NATO times is not going to convince anyone. Either find a credible source for this analysis (and it better be extensive) or don't post the same stuff again. On other news, some speculation: | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:03 BronzeKnee wrote: NATO has never been tested to this degree. When the going gets tough, a lot of people bail out. Remember what happened to Poland in 1939. Let me quote the Anglo-Polish military alliance again, since people don't seem to understand how politics works: Did "His Majesty's Government feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power"? They did absolutely nothing. So you're saying that nobody in the NATO would act, except america, based on something that happened 100 years ago when the NATO didn't even exist, when there were only a few countries involved and when a monarchy instead of a democracy ruled britain? Please stop posting ill-informed opinions as facts. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:02 Nyxisto wrote: What are you even talking about. If a NATO member is attacked all other NATO states are legally bound to help. If you declare war on one NATO member you're at war with all of them. That's the whole point of the pact. Not actually true. Article 5 only compels states to give any support that 'they deem necessary'. That could include military options but it does not require it. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On March 04 2014 02:54 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm not going to lie here, even if Ukraine had joined NATO, no one in Europe would help them militarily against Russia. It doesn't matter what is on a piece of a paper. Do we all remember the Anglo-Polish military alliance? We all know how that turned out. Britain did absolutely nothing to help Poland. Nothing. Really, nothing? I guess 400 000 British soldiers slipped and hit their heads. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Saumure
France404 Posts
Putin blocked the invasion of Syria (and what would have followed) and nobody finds it strange that another riot escalates next to russia immediatly after that?  | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Hoo rah! USA! USA only can save the world! Really. Concerning your lack of knowledge about everything you have written previously, it is not a case of the British unwilling to defend Poland, but that they tried and failled. Talk about a mockey of the lives lost doing exactly the opposite of what you have written. It's the oubreak of WW2, and Russia invaded Poland alongside the Germany in a shockingly fast fashion at the head of a totally new style of war, whilst only a meagre British force exists on the continent, which was shortly routed in the invasion of France anyhow. Remember, back then, no nation even had transport craft suitable for landing large numbers of equipment. Aftermath of WW2 and Russia has seized half of Europe. Not to mention detained/assassinated the entire Polish political and military command. All of this is well documented already, so I can only think that your remarks is just a self expression of ego stroking of USA! USA! USA! | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:16 Saumure wrote: lol, do you really think Russia would invade Poland or something? Putin blocked the invasion of Syria (and what would have followed) and nobody finds it strange that another riot escalates next to russia immediatly after that? Its all a Western plot, I knew it. Democracy always has such a dirty Western bias and must be prevented at all costs. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:16 Saumure wrote: lol, do you really think Russia would invade Poland or something? The Polish military seems to think so. Or at least preparing for the possibility. Perhaps you know something they don't know? | ||
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
On March 04 2014 02:34 Sub40APM wrote: What do you think is going to happen as soon as Russia finishes its invasion and annexation? The rest of Ukraine will apply to NATO status, and NATO bases get another 500 KM closer to Moscow. Russia wont stop at Crimea,even if they dont annex it they wont let Ukraine get into NATO. Putin is trying to make a point,and the point is that Russia is again superpower (im not saying it is or that it isnt just that they think they are one). | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
U.S. senator Chris Murphy, the chairman of the Senate’s Europe subcommittee, said the body is considering imposing sanctions on Russia’s banks, freezing assets of Russian public institutions and private investors and imposing travel bans because of its moves in Ukraine, Reuters reports. Unilateral U.S. sanctions against Russia will have little effect if they are not matched by actions from Europe, Murphy advised. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote: The Polish military seems to think so. Or at least preparing for the possibility. Perhaps you know something they don't know? Pretty standard for militaries to prepare for things that pretty certainly won't happen. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 04 2014 03:26 Alzadar wrote: Pretty standard for militaries to prepare for things that pretty certainly won't happen. Not so much if we're talking relocation to the borders, they didn't just "alert" the troops, which indeed happens on occasion. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/3/3/293322/default/v1/online-military-strength-1-522x293.jpg)
