|
|
On March 04 2014 02:11 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 02:09 plgElwood wrote:
I guess if unkraine´s soldiers are told:
"Leave in 10 hours, or russians storm your bases"
They will leave. If the ultimatum wasnt official or revoked.
Russia will claim : see they left, our action was right + the take crimea without bloodshed.
Actually one can say putin is a fucking genius, while western politicians are stupid blokes who can not do anything facing a real problem.
Obama/Kerry because they only could answer with military forces,
Merkel/Steinmeier because 37% of gas used in germany comes from Russia......
Putin IS a fucking genius, even someone like me (who does not actually like him) can't deny this. Either way: this ultimatum came from Black Sea Fleet, right, not from any official (you know what i do mean) source?
http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/23525211/minoborony-ukrainy#ixzz2uv3QkjwV
Maybe you can take more out of this than google translate.
Interfax Ukraine is quoting an unnamed source in the Defense Ministry being told about it by the commander of the Russian Black Sea Fleet.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 04 2014 02:13 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 02:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 04 2014 02:09 plgElwood wrote:
I guess if unkraine´s soldiers are told:
"Leave in 10 hours, or russians storm your bases"
They will leave. If the ultimatum wasnt official or revoked.
Russia will claim : see they left, our action was right + the take crimea without bloodshed.
Actually one can say putin is a fucking genius, while western politicians are stupid blokes who can not do anything facing a real problem.
Obama/Kerry because they only could answer with military forces,
Merkel/Steinmeier because 37% of gas used in germany comes from Russia......
Putin IS a fucking genius, even someone like me (who does not actually like him) can't deny this. Either way: this ultimatum came from Black Sea Fleet, right, not from any official (you know what i do mean) source? http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/23525211/minoborony-ukrainy#ixzz2uv3QkjwVMaybe you can take more out of this than google translate. Interfax Ukraine is quoting an unnamed source in the Defense Ministry being told about it by the commander of the Russian Black Sea Fleet.
Well, MoD called this "utter bullshit" (in softer form, ofc). So, either it is fake, or MoD has a reason to not admit it . Unnamed source? Confirmed fake /s.
|
The fact that no one truly knows if or if not the ultimatum is fake makes it such a genious move.
Would you bet your life on this ? Already surrounded ? just a step outisde the gate, unarmed and you will probably stay alive.
Even if your ukraine officers throw you in jail, you can still be "rescued" by russian forces.
|
I think my previous post was missed and that it's something people would find interesting.
Edit:
On March 04 2014 02:18 lolfail9001 wrote:Did not miss, did not see source of translation, treated it like any other Russian mass media, ignored.
Translation is mine. You know Russian so you should be able to see that it's accurate.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 04 2014 02:17 MyrMindservant wrote:I think my previous post was missed and that it's something people would find interesting.
Did not miss, did not see source of translation, treated it like any other Russian mass media, ignored.
|
On March 04 2014 02:16 plgElwood wrote:
The fact that no one truly knows if or if not the ultimatum is fake makes it such a genious move.
Would you bet your life on this ? Already surrounded ? just a step outisde the gate, unarmed and you will probably stay alive.
Even if your ukraine officers throw you in jail, you can still be "rescued" by russian forces.
For that case the UNSC is too early, isn't it? There are still 5 1/2h between the start of the meeting and the supposed ultimatum. I mean it could be an attempt to test the waters but... dno.
tl;dr: It smells fishy, I'm not going to eat it.
|
|
|
On March 04 2014 02:17 MyrMindservant wrote:I think my previous post was missed and that it's something people would find interesting.
You are going to provide a bit more of a translation and what exactly is the news source. You see, most of us are kindoff jaded by untruths provided by certain forum members, and if they see just a link or video in a foreign language they will probably dismiss it as false in some manner.
Edit: You are going to need more than just one line of translation, if you want people to actually discuss it because it lacks context.
|
French foreign minister Laurent Fabius warns Russia that “targeted measures” by the EU such as suspended visas and trade talks could come soon. He mentions a possible Thursday meeting. Reuters quotes Fabius:
“If there is not in the coming hours a very quick de-escalation, then we will decide concrete measures such as the suspension of all talks on visas, suspension of economic agreements and concretely that means that ties will be cut on lot of subjects,” Laurent Fabius told BFM TV.
“There could be targeted measures and that can also affect people, officials and their assets,” he said, adding that EU leaders could hold a crisis meeting on the stand-off on Thursday.
“The general tone is that the Russians appear to have decided to go even further. Europe must be firm.”
Source
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 04 2014 02:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote:You are going to provide a bit more of a translation and what exactly is the news source. You see, most of us are kindoff jaded by untruths provided by certain forum members, and if they see just a link or video in a foreign language they will probably dismiss it as false in some manner.
Apparently source on it is Kerry's statement on some TV (or something). Essentially he claims that he&Obama understand a Russia's interest in Crimea and Black Sea Fleet and can help to deal with hooligans and stuff to allow for Ukraine's people to make their choice. It is just a very approximate translation, do note.
|
It sounds like then, that USA is calling on Russia's reason of "peacekeeping" and is offering to do the exact same "peacekeeping".
Like some other posters have commented, if the Russians are truly there to reassure civilians from their fear caused by RT news, then they shall have no problems with other countries helping them do so.
Or perhaps it's a coded message that only the political elite on both sides can understand.
|
On March 04 2014 01:50 Liman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 01:20 TheFish7 wrote:
So what is Putin hoping to get out of this, annex Crimea, then everyone goes home, and we all have a good chuckle about it at the G8 in Sochi? I think this is Putin saying : This is still Russia's backyard and you are not allowed to take over power in ex soviet republics and put NATO bases there.Im still in charge here and you can go fuck yourselves. Risking sanctions,economic hardship and even war just tells how serious he is. Changing Crimea status is just a bonus,and it helps proving his point. This is something every great power would do.Just imagine what would happen if US enemy tried to take over a nearby country....oh wait Cuban missile crisis,there was almost ww3.
What do you think is going to happen as soon as Russia finishes its invasion and annexation? The rest of Ukraine will apply to NATO status, and NATO bases get another 500 KM closer to Moscow.
|
On March 04 2014 02:34 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 01:50 Liman wrote:On March 04 2014 01:20 TheFish7 wrote:
So what is Putin hoping to get out of this, annex Crimea, then everyone goes home, and we all have a good chuckle about it at the G8 in Sochi? I think this is Putin saying : This is still Russia's backyard and you are not allowed to take over power in ex soviet republics and put NATO bases there.Im still in charge here and you can go fuck yourselves. Risking sanctions,economic hardship and even war just tells how serious he is. Changing Crimea status is just a bonus,and it helps proving his point. This is something every great power would do.Just imagine what would happen if US enemy tried to take over a nearby country....oh wait Cuban missile crisis,there was almost ww3. What do you think is going to happen as soon as Russia finishes its invasion and annexation? The rest of Ukraine will apply to NATO status, and NATO bases get another 500 KM closer to Moscow.
I don't think Crimea is the end-game here. Most everyone seems to be watching Eastern Ukraine. But who knows what will happen.
|
so from reading up on this on some English and German news websites for the last half an hour I'm still not sure how big this actually is. Some people downplay it, some people talk about third world war potential.
So how big is this actually? Are there any reliable sources telling us what exactly happened? As far as I know we can't even be sure if that ultimatum is real or not and we don't know Russia's exact plans. We only know that Russia is going to intervene in the Ukraine in some way and that there is military posturing, right?
|
On March 04 2014 01:17 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 01:06 Pandemona wrote:If shit really does hit the fan and war or attacks do happen. The only way EU and America can battle with the Russian's is economically imo. There is no way American can afford a large scale war now and no one in Europe is even remotely equipped with the right numbers of military personal or funds to even help out. Putin is one crazy bastard and has got his own way again by the looks of it. Just to put it in terms of army sizes as well; ![[image loading]](http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/3/3/293322/default/v1/online-military-strength-1-522x293.jpg) My brother who has recently left the army said they aren't even classified as an "army" anymore as they do not have the numbers to call themselves one. The UK army Is classified as a "defense force" as it has less than 100,000 people in it. Also no reserves as UK again doesn't do military training etcetc. Also we don't have a working Air craft carrier so we are pretty much fucked and no use to anyone, unless you want to stop off and re fuel at extraordinary prices or have a cup of tea? I have no idea why people perceive Russia's military to be that strong. They spend a fraction of what the west spends, conflicts they've been in have shown massive weaknesses and most of their equipment is rather outdated to the point where they have to import weapon systems. The economy in the EU/US might not be great at the moment, but neither is Russia's. The russian central bank has already spent an estimated 10% of their foreign currency reserves on stabilizing the ruble, and the collapse of gas imports to Europe would completely cripple them. The Russian economy won't survive any type of real conflict. It's just that Putin is a better bluffer at this point and that NATO consists of a set of leaders that are exceptionally weak.
On March 04 2014 01:20 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 01:17 Derez wrote:On March 04 2014 01:06 Pandemona wrote:If shit really does hit the fan and war or attacks do happen. The only way EU and America can battle with the Russian's is economically imo. There is no way American can afford a large scale war now and no one in Europe is even remotely equipped with the right numbers of military personal or funds to even help out. Putin is one crazy bastard and has got his own way again by the looks of it. Just to put it in terms of army sizes as well; My brother who has recently left the army said they aren't even classified as an "army" anymore as they do not have the numbers to call themselves one. The UK army Is classified as a "defense force" as it has less than 100,000 people in it. Also no reserves as UK again doesn't do military training etcetc. Also we don't have a working Air craft carrier so we are pretty much fucked and no use to anyone, unless you want to stop off and re fuel at extraordinary prices or have a cup of tea? I have no idea why people perceive Russia's military to be that strong. They spend a fraction of what the west spends, conflicts they've been in have shown massive weaknesses and most of their equipment is rather outdated to the point where they have to import weapon systems. The economy in the EU/US might not be great at the moment, but neither is Russia's. The russian central bank has already spent an estimated 10% of their foreign currency reserves on stabilizing the ruble, and the collapse of gas imports to Europe would completely cripple them. The Russian economy won't survive any type of real conflict. It's just that Putin is a better bluffer at this point and that NATO consists of a set of leaders that are exceptionally weak. Completely agree, but they still have the numbers, even if outdated and old they can still do crazy damage with what they have. I think the best way like you mentioned is to just cripple their economy. They have dropped 10% this morning already?
Actually, it's outdated only to the degree that they decided to use mothballed tanks and aircraft (ie. things that weren't even in service and were in storage) and a reserve division in the 5-day war with Georgia because it literally required no effort militarily. T-62/64s were the brunt of the Russian AFVs used (T-62 is so old, it doesn't even have composite armor). Apparently iirc a few T-90s were deployed and it was complete overkill and the tanks were untouchable, as expected. That's just heavy armor btw.
The hilarious illusion of "outdated weapons" comes from the fact that Russia never sells their actual weapons. They sell export variants also known as "monkey models" that are so incredibly watered down that the only likeness between what they sell and what they use themselves is appearance. Militarily, a country like Ukraine will be a rout. Numbers are irrelevant, also. @Pandemona, You're also conveniently forgetting that what Ukraine has is far inferior to what Russia has.
|
On March 04 2014 02:35 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 01:17 Derez wrote:On March 04 2014 01:06 Pandemona wrote:If shit really does hit the fan and war or attacks do happen. The only way EU and America can battle with the Russian's is economically imo. There is no way American can afford a large scale war now and no one in Europe is even remotely equipped with the right numbers of military personal or funds to even help out. Putin is one crazy bastard and has got his own way again by the looks of it. Just to put it in terms of army sizes as well; My brother who has recently left the army said they aren't even classified as an "army" anymore as they do not have the numbers to call themselves one. The UK army Is classified as a "defense force" as it has less than 100,000 people in it. Also no reserves as UK again doesn't do military training etcetc. Also we don't have a working Air craft carrier so we are pretty much fucked and no use to anyone, unless you want to stop off and re fuel at extraordinary prices or have a cup of tea? I have no idea why people perceive Russia's military to be that strong. They spend a fraction of what the west spends, conflicts they've been in have shown massive weaknesses and most of their equipment is rather outdated to the point where they have to import weapon systems. The economy in the EU/US might not be great at the moment, but neither is Russia's. The russian central bank has already spent an estimated 10% of their foreign currency reserves on stabilizing the ruble, and the collapse of gas imports to Europe would completely cripple them. The Russian economy won't survive any type of real conflict. It's just that Putin is a better bluffer at this point and that NATO consists of a set of leaders that are exceptionally weak. Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 01:20 Pandemona wrote:On March 04 2014 01:17 Derez wrote:On March 04 2014 01:06 Pandemona wrote:If shit really does hit the fan and war or attacks do happen. The only way EU and America can battle with the Russian's is economically imo. There is no way American can afford a large scale war now and no one in Europe is even remotely equipped with the right numbers of military personal or funds to even help out. Putin is one crazy bastard and has got his own way again by the looks of it. Just to put it in terms of army sizes as well; My brother who has recently left the army said they aren't even classified as an "army" anymore as they do not have the numbers to call themselves one. The UK army Is classified as a "defense force" as it has less than 100,000 people in it. Also no reserves as UK again doesn't do military training etcetc. Also we don't have a working Air craft carrier so we are pretty much fucked and no use to anyone, unless you want to stop off and re fuel at extraordinary prices or have a cup of tea? I have no idea why people perceive Russia's military to be that strong. They spend a fraction of what the west spends, conflicts they've been in have shown massive weaknesses and most of their equipment is rather outdated to the point where they have to import weapon systems. The economy in the EU/US might not be great at the moment, but neither is Russia's. The russian central bank has already spent an estimated 10% of their foreign currency reserves on stabilizing the ruble, and the collapse of gas imports to Europe would completely cripple them. The Russian economy won't survive any type of real conflict. It's just that Putin is a better bluffer at this point and that NATO consists of a set of leaders that are exceptionally weak. Completely agree, but they still have the numbers, even if outdated and old they can still do crazy damage with what they have. I think the best way like you mentioned is to just cripple their economy. They have dropped 10% this morning already? Actually, it's outdated only to the degree that they decided to use mothballed tanks and aircraft (ie. things that weren't even in service) and a reserve division in the 5-day war with Georgia because it literally required no effort militarily. T-62/64s were the brunt of the Russian AFVs used. Apparently iirc a few T-90s were deployed and it was complete overkill and the tanks were untouchable. That's just heavy armor btw. The hilarious illusion of "outdated weapons" comes from the fact that Russia never sells their actual weapons. They sell export variants also known as "monkey models" that are so incredibly watered down that the only likeness between what they sell and what they use themselves is appearance. Militarily, a country like Ukraine will be a rout. Numbers are irrelevant, also. @Pandemona, You're also conveniently forgetting that what Ukraine has is far inferior to what Russia has.
Post a source please.
|
On March 04 2014 02:34 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 01:50 Liman wrote:On March 04 2014 01:20 TheFish7 wrote:
So what is Putin hoping to get out of this, annex Crimea, then everyone goes home, and we all have a good chuckle about it at the G8 in Sochi? I think this is Putin saying : This is still Russia's backyard and you are not allowed to take over power in ex soviet republics and put NATO bases there.Im still in charge here and you can go fuck yourselves. Risking sanctions,economic hardship and even war just tells how serious he is. Changing Crimea status is just a bonus,and it helps proving his point. This is something every great power would do.Just imagine what would happen if US enemy tried to take over a nearby country....oh wait Cuban missile crisis,there was almost ww3. What do you think is going to happen as soon as Russia finishes its invasion and annexation? The rest of Ukraine will apply to NATO status, and NATO bases get another 500 KM closer to Moscow.
If nothing else, surely this whole crisis shows that Ukraine is far too unstable to join NATO?
Personally I'm not sure the trend of having NATO gobble up ex-Warsaw states one by one is all that helpful for ensuring peace.
|
On March 04 2014 02:35 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 02:34 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 01:50 Liman wrote:On March 04 2014 01:20 TheFish7 wrote:
So what is Putin hoping to get out of this, annex Crimea, then everyone goes home, and we all have a good chuckle about it at the G8 in Sochi? I think this is Putin saying : This is still Russia's backyard and you are not allowed to take over power in ex soviet republics and put NATO bases there.Im still in charge here and you can go fuck yourselves. Risking sanctions,economic hardship and even war just tells how serious he is. Changing Crimea status is just a bonus,and it helps proving his point. This is something every great power would do.Just imagine what would happen if US enemy tried to take over a nearby country....oh wait Cuban missile crisis,there was almost ww3. What do you think is going to happen as soon as Russia finishes its invasion and annexation? The rest of Ukraine will apply to NATO status, and NATO bases get another 500 KM closer to Moscow. I don't think Crimea is the end-game here. Most everyone seems to be watching Eastern Ukraine. But who knows what will happen.
Its the same idea. Whatever the new border will be of Ukraine, it will be asking to join NATO asap as this crisis is finished, even if lets say Russia takes all the land that voted for Yanukovich that still puts Sumy in Ukraine and that is more East than almost all of Belorus.
Anyway, once again, if EU/US wanted to stop this: targeted sanctions against all members of United Russia in the West, their assets could be frozen, their children deported back to glorious mother Russia. Putin wants to pretend like its the Cold War, let the Russian elite live like its the cold war.
|
@sarahrainsford
Is there an ultimatum? Ukraine's Naval spokesman tells us they've been ordered to surrender by 0500 or b stormed. Rsn Navy said 'no comment'
|
On March 04 2014 02:38 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 02:35 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 04 2014 01:17 Derez wrote:On March 04 2014 01:06 Pandemona wrote:If shit really does hit the fan and war or attacks do happen. The only way EU and America can battle with the Russian's is economically imo. There is no way American can afford a large scale war now and no one in Europe is even remotely equipped with the right numbers of military personal or funds to even help out. Putin is one crazy bastard and has got his own way again by the looks of it. Just to put it in terms of army sizes as well; My brother who has recently left the army said they aren't even classified as an "army" anymore as they do not have the numbers to call themselves one. The UK army Is classified as a "defense force" as it has less than 100,000 people in it. Also no reserves as UK again doesn't do military training etcetc. Also we don't have a working Air craft carrier so we are pretty much fucked and no use to anyone, unless you want to stop off and re fuel at extraordinary prices or have a cup of tea? I have no idea why people perceive Russia's military to be that strong. They spend a fraction of what the west spends, conflicts they've been in have shown massive weaknesses and most of their equipment is rather outdated to the point where they have to import weapon systems. The economy in the EU/US might not be great at the moment, but neither is Russia's. The russian central bank has already spent an estimated 10% of their foreign currency reserves on stabilizing the ruble, and the collapse of gas imports to Europe would completely cripple them. The Russian economy won't survive any type of real conflict. It's just that Putin is a better bluffer at this point and that NATO consists of a set of leaders that are exceptionally weak. On March 04 2014 01:20 Pandemona wrote:On March 04 2014 01:17 Derez wrote:On March 04 2014 01:06 Pandemona wrote:If shit really does hit the fan and war or attacks do happen. The only way EU and America can battle with the Russian's is economically imo. There is no way American can afford a large scale war now and no one in Europe is even remotely equipped with the right numbers of military personal or funds to even help out. Putin is one crazy bastard and has got his own way again by the looks of it. Just to put it in terms of army sizes as well; My brother who has recently left the army said they aren't even classified as an "army" anymore as they do not have the numbers to call themselves one. The UK army Is classified as a "defense force" as it has less than 100,000 people in it. Also no reserves as UK again doesn't do military training etcetc. Also we don't have a working Air craft carrier so we are pretty much fucked and no use to anyone, unless you want to stop off and re fuel at extraordinary prices or have a cup of tea? I have no idea why people perceive Russia's military to be that strong. They spend a fraction of what the west spends, conflicts they've been in have shown massive weaknesses and most of their equipment is rather outdated to the point where they have to import weapon systems. The economy in the EU/US might not be great at the moment, but neither is Russia's. The russian central bank has already spent an estimated 10% of their foreign currency reserves on stabilizing the ruble, and the collapse of gas imports to Europe would completely cripple them. The Russian economy won't survive any type of real conflict. It's just that Putin is a better bluffer at this point and that NATO consists of a set of leaders that are exceptionally weak. Completely agree, but they still have the numbers, even if outdated and old they can still do crazy damage with what they have. I think the best way like you mentioned is to just cripple their economy. They have dropped 10% this morning already? Actually, it's outdated only to the degree that they decided to use mothballed tanks and aircraft (ie. things that weren't even in service) and a reserve division in the 5-day war with Georgia because it literally required no effort militarily. T-62/64s were the brunt of the Russian AFVs used. Apparently iirc a few T-90s were deployed and it was complete overkill and the tanks were untouchable. That's just heavy armor btw. The hilarious illusion of "outdated weapons" comes from the fact that Russia never sells their actual weapons. They sell export variants also known as "monkey models" that are so incredibly watered down that the only likeness between what they sell and what they use themselves is appearance. Militarily, a country like Ukraine will be a rout. Numbers are irrelevant, also. @Pandemona, You're also conveniently forgetting that what Ukraine has is far inferior to what Russia has. Post a source please.
I'm not sure if you're trying to be a sarcastic dude or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_variants_of_Soviet_military_equipment
It's surprising how few people who love to bash Russia but don't know nothing about one of the things they're most known for: their large-scale military exports. USSR/Russia has things they use in their own military. If they want to sell them, they'll develop export variants that are a lot cheaper and a lot more inferior. As I recall, the development of such variants came out of the motivation to have highly and easily produced variants in case of nuclear war where heavier development would be far more difficult due to the destruction of facilities manufacturing highly-advanced models starting in the post-WW2 era. It built into the Soviets' budding military export scheme, and also served the motivation of protecting their technology from insecure third world countries that could easily have it secured/taken by other countries.
This is something I knew ever since I learned anything about Russian military tech and it was put straight in front of me. It's no secret, quite the opposite if anything. You know, you can use google yourself, too 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
