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On March 03 2014 07:41 xDaunt wrote:
Nice job, Germany. Way to sanction bad behavior.
I suggest you take off your Reagan fanshirt and be happy that some people on this planet actually try to talk before they further escalate the situation.
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On March 03 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:26 a-game wrote:On March 03 2014 06:00 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:44 a-game wrote:
After doing some digging around on the issue, it seems a lot less alarming than the headlines would have had me believe. I highly doubt Russia will step foot in any other part of Ukraine than Crimea (where they already legally had a large military presence before this dispute). While it's clear Putin is staking out a claim on Crimea, Russian officials have been careful to clarify that they want Crimea to have autonomy but they are not asking for it to become a new nation separate from Ukraine.
The fact they are choosing their words carefully suggests this whole thing is a calculated power play, rather than an attempt to start a war. You must not have been digging to far though, Crimea has been an autonomous Republic since 1993. Which is why the current 'leader' of Crimea isnt a guy from the Party of the Regions -- the Eastern Party that Yanukovich was part off and won the plurality of the votes in the last Crimean Republican elections -- but instead is a quisling -- look that word up -- from something called "Russian Unity", a party that at the last round of elections won 4% of the vote. Yes I know Crimea already has some autonomy, let me correct my wording, "Russian officials have been careful to clarify that they want Crimea to have more autonomy, but they are not asking for it to become a new nation separate from Ukraine." My point is, the Russians are being delicate in a way, they know that if they asked for a new nation that would be too inflammatory. So while newspapers are claiming hands are hovering over red buttons, in reality, this is a calculated dance going on. Anymore autonomy and Crimea is independent. It already sets its own language policy, its own budget. The only thing it doesnt have are its own foreign minister and an armed force. And I am not sure how calculated the dance is, entering Ukrainian Army bases and at gunpoint disarming troops of an independent state is an act of war, no?
I can't find any reputable sources, reporting that Russian troops are surrounding Ukraine bases and disarming them at gunpoint. ( not saying you wrong, just think a major news source would have had a statement by now ).
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Of course the Germans wilt and allow military invasion with no justification to go unpunished. Merkel should grow a spine.
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On March 03 2014 07:46 Twoflowers wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:45 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 07:41 xDaunt wrote:
Nice job, Germany. Way to sanction bad behavior. What are they going to do, Putin controls all the gas to them. Its like America and the Saudis, sure they support Islamist terrorism but their strategic value as an oil exporter is too great. I bet this move is also coordinated with Obama.
I wouldnt be surprised if they are all talking. The Atlantic States show the stick of sending Russia back to its Soviet status -- someone feared but never again respected -- and the Germans being the 'pragmatic' ones. The long picture is that Putin genuinely seems afraid that permanent pro-EU reforms can take root, and the long game is the same as against Brezhnev. Let them become more and more dependent on gas while corruption eats the insides of the country.
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On March 03 2014 07:35 zezamer wrote:
So this situation pretty much is over I think.
Crimea will become a nation and Russia will secure it.
Russia will not face any sanctions.
Some kind of international group will be formed to solve the crisis.
Russian troops stay on Crimea soil, and don't move to Ukraine territory.
yeah, that thought process pans out i guess, except for that little thing where Ukrainian government never accepted Crimean soil as anything else but Ukraine territory? so i don't see how it's pretty much over, except for the drama part (i hope).
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On March 03 2014 07:49 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 07:26 a-game wrote:On March 03 2014 06:00 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:44 a-game wrote:
After doing some digging around on the issue, it seems a lot less alarming than the headlines would have had me believe. I highly doubt Russia will step foot in any other part of Ukraine than Crimea (where they already legally had a large military presence before this dispute). While it's clear Putin is staking out a claim on Crimea, Russian officials have been careful to clarify that they want Crimea to have autonomy but they are not asking for it to become a new nation separate from Ukraine.
The fact they are choosing their words carefully suggests this whole thing is a calculated power play, rather than an attempt to start a war. You must not have been digging to far though, Crimea has been an autonomous Republic since 1993. Which is why the current 'leader' of Crimea isnt a guy from the Party of the Regions -- the Eastern Party that Yanukovich was part off and won the plurality of the votes in the last Crimean Republican elections -- but instead is a quisling -- look that word up -- from something called "Russian Unity", a party that at the last round of elections won 4% of the vote. Yes I know Crimea already has some autonomy, let me correct my wording, "Russian officials have been careful to clarify that they want Crimea to have more autonomy, but they are not asking for it to become a new nation separate from Ukraine." My point is, the Russians are being delicate in a way, they know that if they asked for a new nation that would be too inflammatory. So while newspapers are claiming hands are hovering over red buttons, in reality, this is a calculated dance going on. Anymore autonomy and Crimea is independent. It already sets its own language policy, its own budget. The only thing it doesnt have are its own foreign minister and an armed force. And I am not sure how calculated the dance is, entering Ukrainian Army bases and at gunpoint disarming troops of an independent state is an act of war, no? I can't find any reputable sources, reporting that Russian troops are surrounding Ukraine bases and disarming them at gunpoint. ( not saying you wrong, just think a major news source would have had a statement by now ).
On Sunday they surrounded several small Ukrainian military outposts there and demanded the Ukrainian troops disarm. Some refused, leading to standoffs, although no shots were fired.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/02/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA1Q1E820140302
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On March 03 2014 07:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Of course the Germans wilt and allow military invasion with no justification to go unpunished. Merkel should grow a spine.
You're right. If she's never done anything to oppose everything the US is done, I doubt she'll grow a spine now with the Russians. rofl
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On March 03 2014 07:47 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:41 xDaunt wrote:
Nice job, Germany. Way to sanction bad behavior. I suggest you take off your Reagan fanshirt and be happy that some people on this planet actually try to talk before they further escalate the situation.
The problem is that this gives Russia everything it wants and will make it do this over and over again while the countries at its borders live in fear if there next.
Sometimes you need to tell a bully to back off instead of waiting for the entire yard to run out of lunch money.
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On March 03 2014 06:39 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:25 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:23 unigolyn wrote:On March 03 2014 06:18 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:14 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:13 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:
[quote]
The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. The role of the civilian defense force in Crimea is to protect the rights of the people in Crimea, what don't you understand? There is no legitimate control over the country, people need to protect themselves. From the Army you just said the evil fascist nazi genociders who clearly will begin to exterminate the one pure russian race at any moment dont control? That is why the army isn't listening to Kiev. They don't want to attack innocent citizens of Ukraine who's only crime is not listening to the illegal government in Kiev. Could you please stop being a propagandist? The government isn't illegal, it isn't a junta, and your obvious pro-fascist bias coupled with your country of origin gives you less than zero moral authority. thats not fair. Just because Serbia is the only other modern European country next to Russia to pursue foreign policy based on race and not national boundaries doesnt mean zeo wasnt opposed to the Serbian dictator who did so. You have just proven that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, nor what you are fighting for. Your whole pathetic ad hominem and strawman crusade against me, and indeed your obsession with me just goes to show how scared you are of the truth. The fact that I am a Serb makes no difference, I can put my country next to my name (unlike you). Justice has no nationality, truth has no nationality, and those are the things that are important to me. So I don't give a flying fuck where you are from nor would that have any influence in how I view your post. I don't care if you are getting payed 10c a post by the NSA to shitpost here, I don't care if you are obsessed with me for free. Just stop with the ad hominem and strawman's
oh. my. god.
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On March 03 2014 07:41 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:53 Ghanburighan wrote:Good analysis by Fareed Zakaria: Militarily there is less that can be done. After all, Russia’s military budget is about 18 times that of Ukraine. But NATO should restart talks on providing assurances to countries like Poland – including perhaps building the missile defense system that was abandoned. In economic terms, Washington and the EU should consider the only sanctions that would be effective: ones targeted specifically at individuals who could be held responsible for these acts of aggression against Ukraine. Washington cannot do much to stop Vladimir Putin as he creates facts on the ground in Crimea. But step back and consider what a strategic disaster this is for him. Ukraine has slipped out of his orbit and most of the population there is going to be hostile to Russia for generations. Countries like Poland that had eased up relations with Moscow will now view it with great suspicion. All European countries will put their relations with Russia under review. Even China will surely oppose the brazen violation of national sovereignty, something Beijing is always concerned about. Within Russia people have seen that Putin is terrified of a democracy movement and will brutally oppose it, not really the image he wants to present. Source. Good analysis? While I will say Fareed and CNN is about as good as US news will get, whether or not Fareed personally backs everything he's stating, what's seen here is standard news talk. To paint Russia as an evil monster (then what are we?), to imply that the situation by Ukrainian revolutionaries is a "democracy movement" (LOL), and to state how everyone will hate Russia (when the reality is practically everyone hates the US), is absolutely in-line with American political ideology. I am against Russian incursion in Ukraine, but I'm also against the bs that every nation puts out in their media to promote their goals and ideologies whilst being conveniently forgetful hypocrites. No one's posted anything from Russian media in this thread but it's about as silly and self-righteous.
ye it's ridiculous, i live in germany but i see very little objective stuff. very little is said by the way the "revolution" or "democracy" is reaching out for Ukraine. noone loses a word about the nazis in kiev. it's just "Revolution" and new "gouvernment". Revolution does nothing to you if the same people are in the parlament that were before. it's all the same people, nothing will change in the ukraine, everything they did was chasing away the actual president of the country. on the other side watching the russian news is also a very unhealthy thing to do. the humans did not learn and they never will. there is no truth to be found. just different angles.
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On March 03 2014 07:47 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:41 xDaunt wrote:
Nice job, Germany. Way to sanction bad behavior. I suggest you take off your Reagan fanshirt and be happy that some people on this planet actually try to talk before they further escalate the situation.
Wouldn't it be cool if Merkel gives a "peace in our time" speech?
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On March 03 2014 07:49 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 07:26 a-game wrote:On March 03 2014 06:00 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:44 a-game wrote:
After doing some digging around on the issue, it seems a lot less alarming than the headlines would have had me believe. I highly doubt Russia will step foot in any other part of Ukraine than Crimea (where they already legally had a large military presence before this dispute). While it's clear Putin is staking out a claim on Crimea, Russian officials have been careful to clarify that they want Crimea to have autonomy but they are not asking for it to become a new nation separate from Ukraine.
The fact they are choosing their words carefully suggests this whole thing is a calculated power play, rather than an attempt to start a war. You must not have been digging to far though, Crimea has been an autonomous Republic since 1993. Which is why the current 'leader' of Crimea isnt a guy from the Party of the Regions -- the Eastern Party that Yanukovich was part off and won the plurality of the votes in the last Crimean Republican elections -- but instead is a quisling -- look that word up -- from something called "Russian Unity", a party that at the last round of elections won 4% of the vote. Yes I know Crimea already has some autonomy, let me correct my wording, "Russian officials have been careful to clarify that they want Crimea to have more autonomy, but they are not asking for it to become a new nation separate from Ukraine." My point is, the Russians are being delicate in a way, they know that if they asked for a new nation that would be too inflammatory. So while newspapers are claiming hands are hovering over red buttons, in reality, this is a calculated dance going on. Anymore autonomy and Crimea is independent. It already sets its own language policy, its own budget. The only thing it doesnt have are its own foreign minister and an armed force. And I am not sure how calculated the dance is, entering Ukrainian Army bases and at gunpoint disarming troops of an independent state is an act of war, no? I can't find any reputable sources, reporting that Russian troops are surrounding Ukraine bases and disarming them at gunpoint. ( not saying you wrong, just think a major news source would have had a statement by now ).
here you gohttp://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSBREA1Q1E820140302?irpc=932
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On March 03 2014 07:49 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 07:26 a-game wrote:On March 03 2014 06:00 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:44 a-game wrote:
After doing some digging around on the issue, it seems a lot less alarming than the headlines would have had me believe. I highly doubt Russia will step foot in any other part of Ukraine than Crimea (where they already legally had a large military presence before this dispute). While it's clear Putin is staking out a claim on Crimea, Russian officials have been careful to clarify that they want Crimea to have autonomy but they are not asking for it to become a new nation separate from Ukraine.
The fact they are choosing their words carefully suggests this whole thing is a calculated power play, rather than an attempt to start a war. You must not have been digging to far though, Crimea has been an autonomous Republic since 1993. Which is why the current 'leader' of Crimea isnt a guy from the Party of the Regions -- the Eastern Party that Yanukovich was part off and won the plurality of the votes in the last Crimean Republican elections -- but instead is a quisling -- look that word up -- from something called "Russian Unity", a party that at the last round of elections won 4% of the vote. Yes I know Crimea already has some autonomy, let me correct my wording, "Russian officials have been careful to clarify that they want Crimea to have more autonomy, but they are not asking for it to become a new nation separate from Ukraine." My point is, the Russians are being delicate in a way, they know that if they asked for a new nation that would be too inflammatory. So while newspapers are claiming hands are hovering over red buttons, in reality, this is a calculated dance going on. Anymore autonomy and Crimea is independent. It already sets its own language policy, its own budget. The only thing it doesnt have are its own foreign minister and an armed force. And I am not sure how calculated the dance is, entering Ukrainian Army bases and at gunpoint disarming troops of an independent state is an act of war, no? I can't find any reputable sources, reporting that Russian troops are surrounding Ukraine bases and disarming them at gunpoint. ( not saying you wrong, just think a major news source would have had a statement by now ).
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-country-mobilizes-for-war-after-russia-military-moves-1.2556858
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/russian-forces-surround-coast-guard-base-ukraines-crimea-n40991
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ukrainian-base-standoff-turns-circus
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2571309/Ukraine-calls-military-reservists-Russian-troops-mass-close-Ukrainian-borders-regional-capital-Simferopol.html
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Merkel just shut off Germany's nuclear plants so she needs the gas to flow more than anyone. Just saying.
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On March 03 2014 07:47 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:41 xDaunt wrote:
Nice job, Germany. Way to sanction bad behavior. I suggest you take off your Reagan fanshirt and be happy that some people on this planet actually try to talk before they further escalate the situation.
If Germany has prevented further invasion and escalation, then I think they've done more job than Kerry/Obama who have appeared weak. If Russia isn't scared of USA, then USA needs to reconsider their image in my opinion.
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On March 03 2014 07:50 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:35 zezamer wrote:
So this situation pretty much is over I think.
Crimea will become a nation and Russia will secure it.
Russia will not face any sanctions.
Some kind of international group will be formed to solve the crisis.
Russian troops stay on Crimea soil, and don't move to Ukraine territory. yeah, that thought process pans out i guess, except for that little thing where Ukrainian government never accepted Crimean soil as anything else but Ukraine territory? so i don't see how it's pretty much over, except for the drama part (i hope).
Well you know how that works, its just like 'Republic of Krajina'
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On March 03 2014 07:57 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:47 Nyxisto wrote:On March 03 2014 07:41 xDaunt wrote:
Nice job, Germany. Way to sanction bad behavior. I suggest you take off your Reagan fanshirt and be happy that some people on this planet actually try to talk before they further escalate the situation. If Germany has prevented further invasion and escalation, then I think they've done more job than Kerry/Obama who have appeared weak. If Russia isn't scared of USA, then USA needs to reconsider their image in my opinion.
Ofc Russia isn't scared. The one threat that the US was using (cutting Russia out of the g8) just got bombed by Germany.
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On March 03 2014 07:52 Undead1993 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:41 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 03 2014 06:53 Ghanburighan wrote:Good analysis by Fareed Zakaria: Militarily there is less that can be done. After all, Russia’s military budget is about 18 times that of Ukraine. But NATO should restart talks on providing assurances to countries like Poland – including perhaps building the missile defense system that was abandoned. In economic terms, Washington and the EU should consider the only sanctions that would be effective: ones targeted specifically at individuals who could be held responsible for these acts of aggression against Ukraine. Washington cannot do much to stop Vladimir Putin as he creates facts on the ground in Crimea. But step back and consider what a strategic disaster this is for him. Ukraine has slipped out of his orbit and most of the population there is going to be hostile to Russia for generations. Countries like Poland that had eased up relations with Moscow will now view it with great suspicion. All European countries will put their relations with Russia under review. Even China will surely oppose the brazen violation of national sovereignty, something Beijing is always concerned about. Within Russia people have seen that Putin is terrified of a democracy movement and will brutally oppose it, not really the image he wants to present. Source. Good analysis? While I will say Fareed and CNN is about as good as US news will get, whether or not Fareed personally backs everything he's stating, what's seen here is standard news talk. To paint Russia as an evil monster (then what are we?), to imply that the situation by Ukrainian revolutionaries is a "democracy movement" (LOL), and to state how everyone will hate Russia (when the reality is practically everyone hates the US), is absolutely in-line with American political ideology. I am against Russian incursion in Ukraine, but I'm also against the bs that every nation puts out in their media to promote their goals and ideologies whilst being conveniently forgetful hypocrites. No one's posted anything from Russian media in this thread but it's about as silly and self-righteous. ye it's ridiculous, i live in germany but i see very little objective stuff. very little is said by the way the "revolution" or "democracy" is reaching out for Ukraine. noone loses a word about the nazis in kiev. it's just "Revolution" and new "gouvernment". Revolution does nothing to you if the same people are in the parlament that were before. it's all the same people, nothing will change in the ukraine, everything they did was chasing away the actual president of the country. on the other side watching the russian news is also a very unhealthy thing to do. the humans did not learn and they never will. there is no truth to be found. just different angles. What are you talking about? The BBC went on patrol with 'nazis' and interviewed them. Most newspapers I read in the west mention that there is a fascist component to the revolution. But unlike Russian papers they put it in the context of millions of normal Ukrainians coming out too.
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On March 03 2014 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:47 Nyxisto wrote:On March 03 2014 07:41 xDaunt wrote:
Nice job, Germany. Way to sanction bad behavior. I suggest you take off your Reagan fanshirt and be happy that some people on this planet actually try to talk before they further escalate the situation. The problem is that this gives Russia everything it wants and will make it do this over and over again while the countries at its borders live in fear if there next. Sometimes you need to tell a bully to back off instead of waiting for the entire yard to run out of lunch money.
Yes this gives Russia what it wants and that sucks. But at this point there's nothing the West can do about it. Or what are you proposing instead? We should better learn a lesson from it, get Russias neighbour states into the NATO and settle the borders so Russia doesn't get the opportunity to pull such a move next time.
Wouldn't it be cool if Merkel gives a "peace in our time" speech?
Putin might be an asshole but he is not Hitler.
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On March 03 2014 07:59 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 07:52 Undead1993 wrote:On March 03 2014 07:41 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 03 2014 06:53 Ghanburighan wrote:Good analysis by Fareed Zakaria: Militarily there is less that can be done. After all, Russia’s military budget is about 18 times that of Ukraine. But NATO should restart talks on providing assurances to countries like Poland – including perhaps building the missile defense system that was abandoned. In economic terms, Washington and the EU should consider the only sanctions that would be effective: ones targeted specifically at individuals who could be held responsible for these acts of aggression against Ukraine. Washington cannot do much to stop Vladimir Putin as he creates facts on the ground in Crimea. But step back and consider what a strategic disaster this is for him. Ukraine has slipped out of his orbit and most of the population there is going to be hostile to Russia for generations. Countries like Poland that had eased up relations with Moscow will now view it with great suspicion. All European countries will put their relations with Russia under review. Even China will surely oppose the brazen violation of national sovereignty, something Beijing is always concerned about. Within Russia people have seen that Putin is terrified of a democracy movement and will brutally oppose it, not really the image he wants to present. Source. Good analysis? While I will say Fareed and CNN is about as good as US news will get, whether or not Fareed personally backs everything he's stating, what's seen here is standard news talk. To paint Russia as an evil monster (then what are we?), to imply that the situation by Ukrainian revolutionaries is a "democracy movement" (LOL), and to state how everyone will hate Russia (when the reality is practically everyone hates the US), is absolutely in-line with American political ideology. I am against Russian incursion in Ukraine, but I'm also against the bs that every nation puts out in their media to promote their goals and ideologies whilst being conveniently forgetful hypocrites. No one's posted anything from Russian media in this thread but it's about as silly and self-righteous. ye it's ridiculous, i live in germany but i see very little objective stuff. very little is said by the way the "revolution" or "democracy" is reaching out for Ukraine. noone loses a word about the nazis in kiev. it's just "Revolution" and new "gouvernment". Revolution does nothing to you if the same people are in the parlament that were before. it's all the same people, nothing will change in the ukraine, everything they did was chasing away the actual president of the country. on the other side watching the russian news is also a very unhealthy thing to do. the humans did not learn and they never will. there is no truth to be found. just different angles. What are you talking about? The BBC went on patrol with 'nazis' and interviewed them. Most newspapers I read in the west mention that there is a fascist component to the revolution. But unlike Russian papers they put it in the context of millions of normal Ukrainians coming out too.
i am talking about what i am experiencing
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EPT
