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GreenGringo
349 Posts
Almost every single hero I've played or seen doesn't have skill shots, but abilities that are akin to the easiest-to-deploy abilities in LoL. This is disturbing, because skill shots are a huge component of skill in LoL or any popular team-based sport of which I'm aware. So the question is raised: what does skill mean in DotA2 apart from last hitting and denying creeps? Or is there little skill and is it a game of pure strategy and knowledge? | ||
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
2. positioning 3. When to engage when to back off 4. Picking right items | ||
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Matoo-
Canada1397 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:03 vahgar.r24 wrote: 1. Counter picking 2. positioning 3. When to engage when to back off 4. Picking right items I have never watched or played Dota 2 in my life but even I can tell you haven't read the OP at all. | ||
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Kmatt
United States1019 Posts
For example, Rubick's Fade Bolt is a single unit target ability. If it were made into a "skillshot", all that would do is allow people to hide behind creeps and possibly negate a powerful early game last-hitting tool and nuke, while also nerfing a viable late-game damage debuff. Does turning it to a point target make it more "skill" based? Yes, if by "skill" you mean mouse accuracy, but that's not what DotA is about, so it doesn't actually improve the game, just makes it more difficult. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On July 14 2013 14:57 GreenGringo wrote: I've been playing DotA2 for a week and I'm enjoying the hell out of it. In terms of strategic depth and potential for creativity, it's so superior to LoL as to make the comparison a subject of ridicule. But I have a nagging feeling when I note the almost complete absence of skill shots in DotA2 and think in terms of skill as opposed to knowledge and strategy. Almost every single hero I've played or seen doesn't have skill shots, but abilities that are akin to the easiest-to-deploy abilities in LoL. This is disturbing, because skill shots are a huge component of skill in LoL or any popular team-based sport of which I'm aware. So the question is raised: what does skill mean in DotA2 apart from last hitting and denying creeps? Or is there little skill and is it a game of pure strategy and knowledge? Part of the passive laning phase that League has is because of the ridiculous amount of 'skill' shots that they have. Mass skill shots = hide behind creep waves or stay a distance off to dodge, resulting in boring laning phases. Most skills in DotA work the way because of the WC3 engine; you could technically have a ton of skill shots in WC3, but it wasn't exactly easy to do nor did it play very smooth. | ||
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:03 vahgar.r24 wrote: It might be bad form to respond so soon to answers, but let me just clear this up.1. Counter picking 2. positioning 3. When to engage when to back off 4. Picking right items (1) and (4) are indisputably in the camp of "knowledge & strategy", not "skill" . Think of the difference between coaches and players and you'll see that this difference is really meaningful and not just an arbitrary divide I'm inventing to troll DotA2 players. (2) and (3) are judgement calls made in the heat of the moment and I can easily agree that they're more about skill than knowledge. But LoL also has positioning and safe engagements, as well as other stuff like skill shots. Does that mean LoL is a more skill-based game than DotA2? | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:08 crms wrote: The comparison argument to lack of skill shots in dota vs lol has always bothered me because I don't find many of leagues skill shots to be very "skillful" when they're on such a low cooldown and cost very little (if any) mana. I'm not sure if it's very 'skillful' to get 15 tries per mana bar (or literally a try every single spell cooldown) compared to the very intensive mana issues in Dota. Resource management and deciding if your spells are worth using is harder than most LoL skill shots. My favorite is when both mids get blue. Spamathon of the century. | ||
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KgKris
United States164 Posts
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crms
United States11933 Posts
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Frost
Korea (South)1042 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:13 crms wrote: I hate that video because it makes me realize my tinker isn't nearly as good as I think it is. Mine's only good enough up to the void ult dodge. | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3438 Posts
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:15 vndestiny wrote: Some exceptions, but there's definitely less overall emphasis on skill shots than in LoL. Veteran DotA2 players aren't denying this point..That probably because you have yet to try all the heroes. On top of my head heroes with skill shots (I assume that means skills which require prediction of enemy movement in order for it to land) include these but not all : pudge, potm, clockwerk, meepo, kunka, AA, SF, leshrac, lina, windrunner, invoker, jakiro, disruptor, ... In addition to any hero which has a long cast time basically. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:11 KgKris wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIyNo9Pu9QI That's just amazing. | ||
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Kmatt
United States1019 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:19 GreenGringo wrote: Some exceptions, but there's definitely less overall emphasis on skill shots than in LoL. Veteran DotA2 players aren't denying this point.. We can agree there are less point target abilities, the question is, what makes them so significant that they worsen the game in their absence? Is point-and-click reflexes the "make or break" factor for being a good game? | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3438 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:19 GreenGringo wrote: Some exceptions, but there's definitely less overall emphasis on skill shots than in LoL. Veteran DotA2 players aren't denying this point.. Er I'm not denying. However I might have misunderstood slightly what you were trying to say. So skills in dota are generally easier to land. Thus the skill now is to not get hit by those skills, since you know, they're harder to dodge now. This varies from quick finger - using your own skill to dodge sth that's almost instantaneously casted, to better positioning in a teamfight, or better map-awareness to dodge ganks and so on. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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Frozenhelfire
United States420 Posts
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:23 Kmatt wrote: I never said it worsens the game; I actually said I'm enjoying the hell out of DotA. I don't really enjoy LoL these days.We can agree there are less point target abilities, the question is, what makes them so significant that they worsen the game in their absence? Is point-and-click reflexes the "make or break" factor for being a good game? Nevertheless, I can easily imagine the comparatively low skill cap being a problem for DotA if it intends to become a big e-sport. | ||
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RolleMcKnolle
Germany1054 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:34 GreenGringo wrote: [ Nevertheless, I can easily imagine the comparatively low skill cap being a problem for DotA if it intends to become a big e-sport. uhhh dat flame bait. i don't see in any way how there's a low skill cap in dota 2 besides not a lot of "skill shots". You even said yourself that strategy and creativity are huge in dota. | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3438 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:34 GreenGringo wrote: Nevertheless, I can easily imagine the comparatively low skill cap being a problem for DotA if it intends to become a big e-sport. Oh wow. Guess what game has even less 'skill shots' than dota but a fucking high skillcap and is/was the biggest e-sport the world has ever seen. Look to your left sidebar, it's below the dota2 section. | ||
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Frost
Korea (South)1042 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:49 vndestiny wrote: Oh wow. Guess what game has even less 'skill shots' than dota but a fucking high skillcap and is/was the biggest e-sport the world has ever seen. Look to your left sidebar, it's below the dota2 section. Pretty sure OP is trying to flame bait. His entire argument is based on a lack of skill shots in Dota and even then one mirana arrow is harder to land than any of the skillshots in LoL ~.~. | ||
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
Add in unit collision and multi-hero/summon micro (Chen, Enchantress, Visage, Lone Druid, Meepo etc), and a huge complement of high skillcap active items (Blink, FORCE STAFF, Necronomicon...). Dota's mechanical skillcap is incredibly high, and just because not every other skill is a ground targeted one is no reason to think otherwise. As you play more you will realize this on your own I'm sure. | ||
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
In general: The high mobility, the punishing disables, the precision demanded by the long cooldowns, the AI manipulation, the multiple unit control, the usable items, the animation canceling, the turn rates, the long ranges/cast points, disjointing projectiles, just to name a few | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
I mean, hitting a Split Earth or LSA on a non-stunned target seems just as hard. Microing a Chen, Visage or Meepo seems much harder. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Neither game is taxing on mechanical skill. But quite frankly this is simply not a requirement for a game to be successful or competitive. | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
Also, almost all of dota's items are activatable and really important to use. In an average game it's not uncommon to have 3-4 activatable items which you need to use at the right time in the right situation. Force staff for example, is a crucial item that can make or break team fights depending on how you use it and there are so many different options available all the time. Teamfights in dota also work differently. Unlike league where it's usually hit whatever you can, and however many you can, skills need to be used on certain targets and timed correctly. Shadow demon's disruption for example. Those are just the mechanical differences. Dota takes a lot more experience generally, especially if you're a support player. Map movement is a big part of dota, and farming in the midgame is a skill, whereas farming in the midgame in LoL is easy. There's also certain heroes which you can't play unless you have great micro. Meepo, chen, enchantress, lone druid for example aren't heroes you just pick up whenever. | ||
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
On July 14 2013 16:02 TheYango wrote: Also, the hardest skillshot in DotA 1 was trying to click on Bounty Hunter's model. Quote for Truth. A huge number of heroes in dota 2 have skill shots, the difference is that theres a penalty for using them unlike there is in LoL, where you can use a nuke to last hit a creep and gain all your mana back. Trying to compare LoL to DotA 2 (and saying lol is more skillful), in the dota forum is a great way to get your thread closed so be careful what you're trying to say. | ||
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IceHism
United States1903 Posts
Considering you have braindead skill shots like lucent singularity, mystic shot, Acceleration gate-Shock blast, and etc, i don't see how this increases the cap that much. One truly hard skillshot in league though in my opinion is Orianna's shockwave. Positioning the ball and then getting a 5 man shockwave is really hard in league with no long blink dagger. If i had to say what was a hard champ in league, it'd be orianna and lee sin but that's pretty much it.... If you desire someone hard to play in dota, someone like pudge, mirana, invoker, chen, meepo, visage, tinker, and more are very hard heroes to play correctly | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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