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GreenGringo
349 Posts
Almost every single hero I've played or seen doesn't have skill shots, but abilities that are akin to the easiest-to-deploy abilities in LoL. This is disturbing, because skill shots are a huge component of skill in LoL or any popular team-based sport of which I'm aware. So the question is raised: what does skill mean in DotA2 apart from last hitting and denying creeps? Or is there little skill and is it a game of pure strategy and knowledge? | ||
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
2. positioning 3. When to engage when to back off 4. Picking right items | ||
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Matoo-
Canada1397 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:03 vahgar.r24 wrote: 1. Counter picking 2. positioning 3. When to engage when to back off 4. Picking right items I have never watched or played Dota 2 in my life but even I can tell you haven't read the OP at all. | ||
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Kmatt
United States1019 Posts
For example, Rubick's Fade Bolt is a single unit target ability. If it were made into a "skillshot", all that would do is allow people to hide behind creeps and possibly negate a powerful early game last-hitting tool and nuke, while also nerfing a viable late-game damage debuff. Does turning it to a point target make it more "skill" based? Yes, if by "skill" you mean mouse accuracy, but that's not what DotA is about, so it doesn't actually improve the game, just makes it more difficult. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On July 14 2013 14:57 GreenGringo wrote: I've been playing DotA2 for a week and I'm enjoying the hell out of it. In terms of strategic depth and potential for creativity, it's so superior to LoL as to make the comparison a subject of ridicule. But I have a nagging feeling when I note the almost complete absence of skill shots in DotA2 and think in terms of skill as opposed to knowledge and strategy. Almost every single hero I've played or seen doesn't have skill shots, but abilities that are akin to the easiest-to-deploy abilities in LoL. This is disturbing, because skill shots are a huge component of skill in LoL or any popular team-based sport of which I'm aware. So the question is raised: what does skill mean in DotA2 apart from last hitting and denying creeps? Or is there little skill and is it a game of pure strategy and knowledge? Part of the passive laning phase that League has is because of the ridiculous amount of 'skill' shots that they have. Mass skill shots = hide behind creep waves or stay a distance off to dodge, resulting in boring laning phases. Most skills in DotA work the way because of the WC3 engine; you could technically have a ton of skill shots in WC3, but it wasn't exactly easy to do nor did it play very smooth. | ||
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:03 vahgar.r24 wrote: It might be bad form to respond so soon to answers, but let me just clear this up.1. Counter picking 2. positioning 3. When to engage when to back off 4. Picking right items (1) and (4) are indisputably in the camp of "knowledge & strategy", not "skill" . Think of the difference between coaches and players and you'll see that this difference is really meaningful and not just an arbitrary divide I'm inventing to troll DotA2 players. (2) and (3) are judgement calls made in the heat of the moment and I can easily agree that they're more about skill than knowledge. But LoL also has positioning and safe engagements, as well as other stuff like skill shots. Does that mean LoL is a more skill-based game than DotA2? | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:08 crms wrote: The comparison argument to lack of skill shots in dota vs lol has always bothered me because I don't find many of leagues skill shots to be very "skillful" when they're on such a low cooldown and cost very little (if any) mana. I'm not sure if it's very 'skillful' to get 15 tries per mana bar (or literally a try every single spell cooldown) compared to the very intensive mana issues in Dota. Resource management and deciding if your spells are worth using is harder than most LoL skill shots. My favorite is when both mids get blue. Spamathon of the century. | ||
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KgKris
United States164 Posts
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crms
United States11933 Posts
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Frost
Korea (South)1042 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:13 crms wrote: I hate that video because it makes me realize my tinker isn't nearly as good as I think it is. Mine's only good enough up to the void ult dodge. | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3452 Posts
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:15 vndestiny wrote: Some exceptions, but there's definitely less overall emphasis on skill shots than in LoL. Veteran DotA2 players aren't denying this point..That probably because you have yet to try all the heroes. On top of my head heroes with skill shots (I assume that means skills which require prediction of enemy movement in order for it to land) include these but not all : pudge, potm, clockwerk, meepo, kunka, AA, SF, leshrac, lina, windrunner, invoker, jakiro, disruptor, ... In addition to any hero which has a long cast time basically. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:11 KgKris wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIyNo9Pu9QI That's just amazing. | ||
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Kmatt
United States1019 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:19 GreenGringo wrote: Some exceptions, but there's definitely less overall emphasis on skill shots than in LoL. Veteran DotA2 players aren't denying this point.. We can agree there are less point target abilities, the question is, what makes them so significant that they worsen the game in their absence? Is point-and-click reflexes the "make or break" factor for being a good game? | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3452 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:19 GreenGringo wrote: Some exceptions, but there's definitely less overall emphasis on skill shots than in LoL. Veteran DotA2 players aren't denying this point.. Er I'm not denying. However I might have misunderstood slightly what you were trying to say. So skills in dota are generally easier to land. Thus the skill now is to not get hit by those skills, since you know, they're harder to dodge now. This varies from quick finger - using your own skill to dodge sth that's almost instantaneously casted, to better positioning in a teamfight, or better map-awareness to dodge ganks and so on. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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Frozenhelfire
United States420 Posts
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:23 Kmatt wrote: I never said it worsens the game; I actually said I'm enjoying the hell out of DotA. I don't really enjoy LoL these days.We can agree there are less point target abilities, the question is, what makes them so significant that they worsen the game in their absence? Is point-and-click reflexes the "make or break" factor for being a good game? Nevertheless, I can easily imagine the comparatively low skill cap being a problem for DotA if it intends to become a big e-sport. | ||
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RolleMcKnolle
Germany1054 Posts
On July 14 2013 15:34 GreenGringo wrote: [ Nevertheless, I can easily imagine the comparatively low skill cap being a problem for DotA if it intends to become a big e-sport. uhhh dat flame bait. i don't see in any way how there's a low skill cap in dota 2 besides not a lot of "skill shots". You even said yourself that strategy and creativity are huge in dota. | ||
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