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On July 14 2013 15:34 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 15:23 Kmatt wrote:On July 14 2013 15:19 GreenGringo wrote:On July 14 2013 15:15 vndestiny wrote:
That probably because you have yet to try all the heroes. On top of my head heroes with skill shots (I assume that means skills which require prediction of enemy movement in order for it to land) include these but not all : pudge, potm, clockwerk, meepo, kunka, AA, SF, leshrac, lina, windrunner, invoker, jakiro, disruptor, ... In addition to any hero which has a long cast time basically. Some exceptions, but there's definitely less overall emphasis on skill shots than in LoL. Veteran DotA2 players aren't denying this point.. We can agree there are less point target abilities, the question is, what makes them so significant that they worsen the game in their absence? Is point-and-click reflexes the "make or break" factor for being a good game? Nevertheless, I can easily imagine the comparatively low skill cap being a problem for DotA if it intends to become a big e-sport.
Oh wow. Guess what game has even less 'skill shots' than dota but a fucking high skillcap and is/was the biggest e-sport the world has ever seen. Look to your left sidebar, it's below the dota2 section.
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On July 14 2013 15:49 vndestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 15:34 GreenGringo wrote:On July 14 2013 15:23 Kmatt wrote:On July 14 2013 15:19 GreenGringo wrote:On July 14 2013 15:15 vndestiny wrote:
That probably because you have yet to try all the heroes. On top of my head heroes with skill shots (I assume that means skills which require prediction of enemy movement in order for it to land) include these but not all : pudge, potm, clockwerk, meepo, kunka, AA, SF, leshrac, lina, windrunner, invoker, jakiro, disruptor, ... In addition to any hero which has a long cast time basically. Some exceptions, but there's definitely less overall emphasis on skill shots than in LoL. Veteran DotA2 players aren't denying this point.. We can agree there are less point target abilities, the question is, what makes them so significant that they worsen the game in their absence? Is point-and-click reflexes the "make or break" factor for being a good game? Nevertheless, I can easily imagine the comparatively low skill cap being a problem for DotA if it intends to become a big e-sport. Oh wow. Guess what game has even less 'skill shots' than dota but a fucking high skillcap and is/was the biggest e-sport the world has ever seen. Look to your left sidebar, it's below the dota2 section.
Pretty sure OP is trying to flame bait. His entire argument is based on a lack of skill shots in Dota and even then one mirana arrow is harder to land than any of the skillshots in LoL ~.~.
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It's pretty ridiculous to suggest that Dota's skills have a lower "skill cap" - sheer number of ground-targetted "skill shots" is not a metric of "skill". Aside from there being no lack of extremely high-impact, conventional "skill shot" type skills in Dota (clock hook, Magnus RP, Enigma black hole, Puck dream coil, Void chronosphere...), many targettable skills can also be used much better by higher-skill players. Nyx impale is a target spell, but can you find the right angle and timing to catch 3 enemy heroes or will you blow it at the first opportunity? Ditto Sand King's burrowstrike, except that skill also allows breathtaking jukes and escapes. Sven Storm Bolt is the quintessential "point-and-click", but even that can be saved to maximize the AoE or timed to combo with a dark seer vacuum.
Add in unit collision and multi-hero/summon micro (Chen, Enchantress, Visage, Lone Druid, Meepo etc), and a huge complement of high skillcap active items (Blink, FORCE STAFF, Necronomicon...). Dota's mechanical skillcap is incredibly high, and just because not every other skill is a ground targeted one is no reason to think otherwise. As you play more you will realize this on your own I'm sure.
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Meh, was expecting something more, but it is just a flame bait hehe
In general: The high mobility, the punishing disables, the precision demanded by the long cooldowns, the AI manipulation, the multiple unit control, the usable items, the animation canceling, the turn rates, the long ranges/cast points, disjointing projectiles, just to name a few
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The skillshot argument always seemed so arbitrary to me. Like...what's so hard about a line of sight attack? Mirana, Pudge and Clockwerk all have "skillshots", but they're hardly the most skill intensive heroes.
I mean, hitting a Split Earth or LSA on a non-stunned target seems just as hard. Microing a Chen, Visage or Meepo seems much harder.
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United States47024 Posts
Landing skillshots is by and large not a mechanical skill and a matter of mindgames with your opponent anyway (since essentially you're just playing games in each other's heads about which way he's going to dodge), which means it goes hand in hand with all the other mental tasks in a game. The only real exception to this might be the predictive skill of firing a blind skillshot at a target in the fog--in which case League isn't any better than DotA because the vast majority of skillshots in League do not exceed vision range to begin with, while the ones in DotA tend to do so.
Neither game is taxing on mechanical skill. But quite frankly this is simply not a requirement for a game to be successful or competitive.
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I would like OP to explain what he thinks skill is if things such as knowledge and strategy don't count.
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United States47024 Posts
Also, the hardest skillshot in DotA 1 was trying to click on Bounty Hunter's model.
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I'll admit, I've been playing a lot of league as of late, and although just about everyone has a skillshot, a lot of them aren't that difficult to land. Compare this to windrunner's shackleshot, powershot, lina's stun, etc due to animation delays.
Also, almost all of dota's items are activatable and really important to use. In an average game it's not uncommon to have 3-4 activatable items which you need to use at the right time in the right situation. Force staff for example, is a crucial item that can make or break team fights depending on how you use it and there are so many different options available all the time.
Teamfights in dota also work differently. Unlike league where it's usually hit whatever you can, and however many you can, skills need to be used on certain targets and timed correctly. Shadow demon's disruption for example.
Those are just the mechanical differences. Dota takes a lot more experience generally, especially if you're a support player. Map movement is a big part of dota, and farming in the midgame is a skill, whereas farming in the midgame in LoL is easy.
There's also certain heroes which you can't play unless you have great micro. Meepo, chen, enchantress, lone druid for example aren't heroes you just pick up whenever.
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On July 14 2013 16:02 TheYango wrote:
Also, the hardest skillshot in DotA 1 was trying to click on Bounty Hunter's model.
Quote for Truth.
A huge number of heroes in dota 2 have skill shots, the difference is that theres a penalty for using them unlike there is in LoL, where you can use a nuke to last hit a creep and gain all your mana back.
Trying to compare LoL to DotA 2 (and saying lol is more skillful), in the dota forum is a great way to get your thread closed so be careful what you're trying to say.
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I'm pretty sure landing a LSA or split earth on a moving target is just about as hard as landing a lux or morgana Q.
Considering you have braindead skill shots like lucent singularity, mystic shot, Acceleration gate-Shock blast, and etc, i don't see how this increases the cap that much.
One truly hard skillshot in league though in my opinion is Orianna's shockwave. Positioning the ball and then getting a 5 man shockwave is really hard in league with no long blink dagger. If i had to say what was a hard champ in league, it'd be orianna and lee sin but that's pretty much it....
If you desire someone hard to play in dota, someone like pudge, mirana, invoker, chen, meepo, visage, tinker, and more are very hard heroes to play correctly
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
Closing this, pretty terrible thread.
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Katowice25012 Posts
WHERE? WHERE IS IT? HOW DID IT GET BURNED?
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EPT
