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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Apologies in advance for theorycrafting and if this has been covered (I'm mainly a toss player).
Mass muta is typically a bad idea in ZvT because stimmed mm own it as well as vessels (and with every other terran going SK these days it's even worse).
But ensnared stimmed rines will shoot as if they are unstimmed - and as we know from vanilla BW, mutas > unstimmed rines. Even with medics the rines would have a tough time standing up to muta esp. if you upgrade air attack.
So could queen/muta be used as a good midgame sort of crippling blow strike? Hit them hard and try to end the game before they can get vessel tech (including use of infestation ^_^), or use it to transition to hive tech? It also seems like it would counter fast expo pretty well.
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is awesome32274 Posts
Well its seems very micro intensive.
Once you have a decent amount of mutas to hit him, you still have to esnare (queen not running into stimmed marines and dying, not getting irradiated, not esnaring your mutas, being very good at splitting irradiated muta) and as you see it will be pretty hard to recover if you screw up. Unless you did an amazing muta harras and he fails at defeding it, wouldnt recommend doing it.
But it can work :o
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if you loose the queens you are dead^^
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On July 14 2006 13:35 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Apologies in advance for theorycrafting and if this has been covered (I'm mainly a toss player).
Mass muta is typically a bad idea in ZvT because stimmed mm own it as well as vessels (and with every other terran going SK these days it's even worse).
But ensnared stimmed rines will shoot as if they are unstimmed - and as we know from vanilla BW, mutas > unstimmed rines. Even with medics the rines would have a tough time standing up to muta esp. if you upgrade air attack.
So could queen/muta be used as a good midgame sort of crippling blow strike? Hit them hard and try to end the game before they can get vessel tech (including use of infestation ^_^), or use it to transition to hive tech? It also seems like it would counter fast expo pretty well.
But best thing to do is go guards, hydras, queens, and scourges... Late Game if u can use scourges if u cant...... go Lurk ASAP. And getting expos will b alot easier considering he doesnt go tanks and goes skterran in which u can mass sunkens like a mofo.
I changed my quote b/c a certain dumbass wants me banned......
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Muta ling + Queen ensnare isn't a bad idea to use as a transation after initial muta harass and while you take some more gas expos. You just get lurker tech a little later and if he leaves his expo CC open you can hit it with muta and infest it. Eventually you will definitely need lurker though, but early mid game it muta/ling/queen is definitely viable. However I would only try this vs someone who goes fast CC and make sure you get air +1 attack upgrades with +1 armor upgrade for lings.
PS. Ban TH_terran? --a
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On July 14 2006 14:46 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
PS. Ban TH_terran? --a
Wtf ban me? Is it b/c ur a dumbass or are u a bitch? Wtf Y should i get banned u should for saying i should get banned u fuking homo. Dont say to ban me unless u have a reason.
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On July 14 2006 14:51 Th_Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2006 14:46 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Muta ling + Queen ensnare isn't a bad idea to use as a transation after initial muta harass and while you take some more gas expos. You just get lurker tech a little later and if he leaves his expo CC open you can hit it with muta and infest it. Eventually you will definitely need lurker though, but early mid game it muta/ling/queen is definitely viable. However I would only try this vs someone who goes fast CC and make sure you get air +1 attack upgrades with +1 armor upgrade for lings.
PS. Ban TH_terran? --a Wtf ban me? Is it b/c ur a dumbass or are u a bitch? Wtf Y should i get banned u should for saying i should get banned u fuking homo.
He said it because you maid an idiotic post, which you have now followed up with an unintellictual flame.
On topic: I actually like Queen+Lurker better, but that's just me ^_^
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On July 14 2006 14:40 Th_Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2006 13:35 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Apologies in advance for theorycrafting and if this has been covered (I'm mainly a toss player).
Mass muta is typically a bad idea in ZvT because stimmed mm own it as well as vessels (and with every other terran going SK these days it's even worse).
But ensnared stimmed rines will shoot as if they are unstimmed - and as we know from vanilla BW, mutas > unstimmed rines. Even with medics the rines would have a tough time standing up to muta esp. if you upgrade air attack.
So could queen/muta be used as a good midgame sort of crippling blow strike? Hit them hard and try to end the game before they can get vessel tech (including use of infestation ^_^), or use it to transition to hive tech? It also seems like it would counter fast expo pretty well. But best thing to do is go guards, hydras, queens, and scourges... Late Game if u can use scourges if u cant...... go Lurk ASAP. And getting expos will b alot easier considering he doesnt go tanks and goes skterran in which u can mass sunkens like a mofo. I changed my quote b/c a certain dumbass wants me banned......
Please please stop posting in the strategy forum. Your advice is horribly wrong. In repsonse to hasu's post: Queen/Lurker is equally effective in my opinion; makes it very very difficult for T to run away without taking a lot of hits from lurks/ling.
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United States10774 Posts
Yeah i think muta+queen is definitely viable. With the leftover minerals add some zerglings in also :p
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On July 14 2006 15:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2006 14:40 Th_Terran wrote:On July 14 2006 13:35 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Apologies in advance for theorycrafting and if this has been covered (I'm mainly a toss player).
Mass muta is typically a bad idea in ZvT because stimmed mm own it as well as vessels (and with every other terran going SK these days it's even worse).
But ensnared stimmed rines will shoot as if they are unstimmed - and as we know from vanilla BW, mutas > unstimmed rines. Even with medics the rines would have a tough time standing up to muta esp. if you upgrade air attack.
So could queen/muta be used as a good midgame sort of crippling blow strike? Hit them hard and try to end the game before they can get vessel tech (including use of infestation ^_^), or use it to transition to hive tech? It also seems like it would counter fast expo pretty well. But best thing to do is go guards, hydras, queens, and scourges... Late Game if u can use scourges if u cant...... go Lurk ASAP. And getting expos will b alot easier considering he doesnt go tanks and goes skterran in which u can mass sunkens like a mofo. I changed my quote b/c a certain dumbass wants me banned...... Please please stop posting in the strategy forum. Your advice is horribly wrong. In repsonse to hasu's post: Queen/Lurker is equally effective in my opinion; makes it very very difficult for T to run away without taking a lot of hits from lurks/ling.
Prove me wrong and ill shutup otherwise u stfu. I actually have rep where i go guard, scourge hydras, ling AND i win WITH NO queens.
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On July 14 2006 16:08 Th_Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2006 15:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On July 14 2006 14:40 Th_Terran wrote:On July 14 2006 13:35 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Apologies in advance for theorycrafting and if this has been covered (I'm mainly a toss player).
Mass muta is typically a bad idea in ZvT because stimmed mm own it as well as vessels (and with every other terran going SK these days it's even worse).
But ensnared stimmed rines will shoot as if they are unstimmed - and as we know from vanilla BW, mutas > unstimmed rines. Even with medics the rines would have a tough time standing up to muta esp. if you upgrade air attack.
So could queen/muta be used as a good midgame sort of crippling blow strike? Hit them hard and try to end the game before they can get vessel tech (including use of infestation ^_^), or use it to transition to hive tech? It also seems like it would counter fast expo pretty well. But best thing to do is go guards, hydras, queens, and scourges... Late Game if u can use scourges if u cant...... go Lurk ASAP. And getting expos will b alot easier considering he doesnt go tanks and goes skterran in which u can mass sunkens like a mofo. I changed my quote b/c a certain dumbass wants me banned...... Please please stop posting in the strategy forum. Your advice is horribly wrong. In repsonse to hasu's post: Queen/Lurker is equally effective in my opinion; makes it very very difficult for T to run away without taking a lot of hits from lurks/ling. Prove me wrong and ill shutup otherwise u stfu. I actually have rep where i go guard, scourge hydras, ling AND i win WITH NO queens.
No one will prove you wrong because at this point anyone who has read your posts has come to the obvious conclusion that you are a retarded fuck. So, nobody will even care to do that.
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are you 100% sure ensnare slow the attack rate that much?
Because I had the impression several times that it slows down movement but not firing rate.
I had battles between my units in a UMS map, and like marine v marine would be a close match, with the marine without ensnare leaving with 4-10 hp...
Better double check...
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Ensnare slows down attack rate. Search the forums, someone did an analysis of it.
Thanks for replies =D
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Here's the stats: http://p200.ezboard.com/ftsunamisstrategyforumfrm1.showMessage?topicID=222.topic
From that topic:
===
I did, as promised, some tests to calculate the %decrease in fire rate of ensnaire. Since zerg and toss have regeneration and teran buildings tend to die faster when at red HP i used tanks for ground damage and BC's or vessels for air damage. Before giving the results(which are very interesting and strange) i wanna state that they came from experiments and because of that may not be 100% precise.
OK, enough with the silly introduction, let the numbers talk!!!!!!!
Zerg Units
-Lings 15% decrease
-Hydras 15% decrease
-Mutes 15% decrease (quite boring huh?)
-Ultras UNCHAGED!!!! Yes u read right. Ensnaire does not affect ultras.
-Cracklings 25% decrease
Terran Units
-Marines 17% decrease
-Stimmed Marines 23% decrease (though other tests suggests it's more of 45-50%, negating stim entirely)
-Golies UNCHANGED BOTH AIR AND GROUND. So next time dont be surprised if your lings get raped of ensnaired gollies
-Wraith 16% decrease
-BCs air 16%....BCs ground 4%. Pretty strange but i did this many times and the results were the same. Ensnaire has different effect on air and ground BCs attack!!!!
-Valks 18-20% decrease.
-I left firebats for the end because they are so hard to calculate. The trick is to have the tanks that take the damage at exactly the same angle towards firebats fire. If tanks are at 45 angle towards firebat fire they take more damage for some reason compared to 90 or 0 angle. Anyway, all things considered equal ensnaire decreases firebat rate by 29%. That's the largest decrease of all!!!
Toss Units
-Zealots 16% decrease
-Goons air 14%, Goons ground 11% decrease. Pretty strange again but that's what i found, period.
-Archon air 20%, Archon ground 3% decrease. What can i say people, hope u correct me.
-Dts 22% decrease
-Carriers UNCHANGED. When ensnairing carriers directly, fire rate doesn't decrease. Then i tried to ensnaire some interceptors. I didn't notice any change either. That gave me much grieve!!!!!
-Sairs 12% decrease
-Scout air 16% decrease. Forgot to test ground.
I'd like to add that guradian's decrease is about 11% while (to my great dissapointment) siege tanks and reavers are not affected.
Lurker cooldown IS affected by ensnaire, but you have to ensnaire it while it is above the ground first in order to take affect. Ensnaring a burrowed lurker even though detected does nothing to its cooldown.
Using the terran tank as a target, I allowed the ensnared lurker to get the first hit, and the unensnared lurker to attack right after, the result being the unensnared lurker winning and the ensnared lurker's tank having 17 hp left at the time the first tank was destroyed.
I just woke up, so maybe my numbers are off but it would be around 11% decrease.
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TH_Terran, take a hint buddy. People dont like the way you're acting in these forums.
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On July 14 2006 18:21 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Ensnare slows down attack rate. Search the forums, someone did an analysis of it.
Thanks for replies =D
I think it was Bill307 but I might be wrong.
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wait i will definitely try this but doesn't it take time for +1 attack and armor lings to upgrade in which time you will probably need lurkers. also the hitting the cc with 24+ muta and infesting then running away seems like a hot idea. also how do i protect my later expansions without 2 lurkers guiding it.
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what about that thing in the pG highlight video where this guy ensnares a bunch of MNM + Tanks and surrounds with lurkers.
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On July 14 2006 18:47 sdpgposd wrote:
TH_Terran, take a hint buddy. People dont like the way you're acting in these forums.
The way im acting in these forums...... i havent flamed talked bad too or any bad thing u can think of until now b/c sum1 wants me banned.
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On July 14 2006 16:08 Th_Terran wrote:
Prove me wrong and ill shutup otherwise u stfu. I actually have rep where i go guard, scourge hydras, ling AND i win WITH NO queens.
If I had a rep where I massed Dark archons and won, would that be sufficient proof that mass dark archon is a good strategy? Would it also sufficiently disprove that templars are actually useful units?
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On July 14 2006 19:40 Purind wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2006 16:08 Th_Terran wrote:
Prove me wrong and ill shutup otherwise u stfu. I actually have rep where i go guard, scourge hydras, ling AND i win WITH NO queens. If I had a rep where I massed Dark archons and won, would that be sufficient proof that mass dark archon is a good strategy? Would it also sufficiently disprove that templars are actually useful units?
Wtf are u talking about? They are good units but the thing is I had support units..... u dont.
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On July 14 2006 20:17 tKd_ wrote:i tried this in a pub. i think it's worth a watch even though i messed up a little. the enemy was alright, criticizable though. key thing is he went for a tank build, which meant his marine count wasn't as high. http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=31521
Muta alone can beat a tank rush build with good micro.
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On July 14 2006 20:22 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Muta alone can beat a tank rush build with good micro.
yeah i always use muta to kill tank pushes. he didn't really tank rush me however. i played the game with carapace lings and +1 mutas and infested him and used ensnare when he was attacking my main expo.
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On July 14 2006 19:09 Th_Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2006 18:47 sdpgposd wrote:
TH_Terran, take a hint buddy. People dont like the way you're acting in these forums. The way im acting in these forums...... i havent flamed talked bad too or any bad thing u can think of until now b/c sum1 wants me banned.
Yeah, you're life on this forum is so vast i've got a huge amount of posts to choose from.
You can't just go around saying 'wtf are u talking about' to people in the strategy section or any section for that matter, people are making valid points and you're not discussing them at all.
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that's not quite true. my advice is people don't be so stuborn not to tell him why he's wrong, and th_terran dont' be so sure you're not being an ass. and why don't you post rep? of your guard hydra ling scourge. it would make things simpler. and i don't think that taking queens out of the equation necessarily means 'the strat is so good it doesn't even need them.'
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On July 14 2006 21:03 sdpgposd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2006 19:09 Th_Terran wrote:On July 14 2006 18:47 sdpgposd wrote:
TH_Terran, take a hint buddy. People dont like the way you're acting in these forums. The way im acting in these forums...... i havent flamed talked bad too or any bad thing u can think of until now b/c sum1 wants me banned. Yeah, you're life on this forum is so vast i've got a huge amount of posts to choose from. You can't just go around saying 'wtf are u talking about' to people in the strategy section or any section for that matter, people are making valid points and you're not discussing them at all.
I was dicussing until yall decided to flame me. Read all of the quotes b4 saying that Plz.
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Th_Terran, drop it. If u noticed u actually started the flaming yourself; you don't need to respond to criticism all the time.
Anyway i think queen muta is too gas heavy for most maps where u will prefer the gas to be on lurkers. Nice idea, can work on some maps that marines cannot be used easily (which is rare)
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On July 15 2006 08:52 NeverTheEndlessWiz wrote:
Th_Terran, drop it. If u noticed u actually started the flaming yourself; you don't need to respond to criticism all the time.
Anyway i think queen muta is too gas heavy for most maps where u will prefer the gas to be on lurkers. Nice idea, can work on some maps that marines cannot be used easily (which is rare)
the idea is to use queen/muta to fight marines and not avoid them using upgrades and ensnare, which can be used to replace lurkers until he has irradiate, which is the theorycraft the topic creator was talking about. i like the idea
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
going queens to ensnare just so you can use mutas mid game si a huge gamble. Even if you ensnare them all it would take is a couple irradiates or the marines grouping well to slaughter your entire mutalisk force. And if you have a mutalisk force that is supposed to tango with a good sized MnM force mid game than chances are you are fucked if it fails.
Stick to the safer stuff, if you want to use ensnare you it in conjunction with defiler/lurk/ling or lurk/hydra. Mutalisk are great game enders early or perhaps a harrass switch mid game but they are not meant to be a full on combative choice against an entire terran force. Combined WITH ling or hydra/lurk than sure it can be very nice.
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Well, if you're going to do a wait for terran army to leave base -> gogo muta/queen nat cc steal, then I'm sure that ensnare wouldn't be unreasonable to tech, to make use of that queen and maybe another for 200/200 isn't much more of an investment.
And I think everyone's ignoring the fact that the muta/queen combo must have an implied ling element to it. Otherwise, where are all the minerals going to? Sure, it could be going to expos and drones, but you wouldn't try powering, teching, and attacking the terran blob aggressively all at the same time.
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[QUOTE]On July 15 2006 08:52 NeverTheEndlessWiz wrote:
Th_Terran, drop it. If u noticed u actually started the flaming yourself; you don't need to respond to criticism all the time.
[QUOTE]
Ok somehow u made me feel better :D lmao. But that was the first time i ever responded. Ill try to control myself as long as war doesnt flame me again. Look in "The Dilema" he fuking told topic starternnot to listen to me even when i said "i think" and "I suk with protoss" and Was PROPOSING THE IDEA not telling topic starter to do anything.
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[QUOTE]On July 15 2006 09:40 Th_Terran wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 15 2006 08:52 NeverTheEndlessWiz wrote:
Th_Terran, drop it. If u noticed u actually started the flaming yourself; you don't need to respond to criticism all the time.
[QUOTE]
Ok somehow u made me feel better :D lmao. But that was the first time i ever responded. Ill try to control myself as long as war doesnt flame me again. Look in "The Dilema" he fuking told topic starternnot to listen to me even when i said "i think" and "I suk with protoss" and Was PROPOSING THE IDEA not telling topic starter to do anything.[/QUOTE]
God ur worse than HooHa..just stop posting plz..
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I love queens , they are a pretty good combo with lurker and defilers but u neeed a MONSTER micro, otherwise it would be unefective.
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On July 14 2006 16:08 Th_Terran wrote:
Prove me wrong and ill shutup otherwise u stfu. I actually have rep where i go guard, scourge hydras, ling AND i win WITH NO queens.
This is the worst post I've ever seen in the strategy forum.
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You know guys once i went muta, scourage, guards, devouers, added some ultras and lings, and then some hydra just for the fun of it, and some lurkers to counter marines, and then of course a couple of queens and defilers to cast some cute spells, and some drones in front to attrack fire, and overloards on top to see wraith.
And I won yes, good strat.
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On July 15 2006 16:19 Sfydjklm wrote:
You know guys once i went muta, scourage, guards, devouers, added some ultras and lings, and then some hydra just for the fun of it, and some lurkers to counter marines, and then of course a couple of queens and defilers to cast some cute spells, and some drones in front to attrack fire, and overloards on top to see wraith.
And I won yes, good strat.
Without the infested terrans, you're never going to win. 
Btw, since when was having the 5th post or so bashing somebody the exact same way for the exact same reason when the issue's already resolved cool?
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United States10774 Posts
On July 15 2006 07:15 Th_Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2006 21:03 sdpgposd wrote:On July 14 2006 19:09 Th_Terran wrote:On July 14 2006 18:47 sdpgposd wrote:
TH_Terran, take a hint buddy. People dont like the way you're acting in these forums. The way im acting in these forums...... i havent flamed talked bad too or any bad thing u can think of until now b/c sum1 wants me banned. Yeah, you're life on this forum is so vast i've got a huge amount of posts to choose from. You can't just go around saying 'wtf are u talking about' to people in the strategy section or any section for that matter, people are making valid points and you're not discussing them at all. I was dicussing until yall decided to flame me. Read all of the quotes b4 saying that Plz.
Okay...just stop posting PLEASE. After looking at "The dilema" thread I come here just to find you going off again. Please stop.
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On July 15 2006 19:33 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2006 07:15 Th_Terran wrote:On July 14 2006 21:03 sdpgposd wrote:On July 14 2006 19:09 Th_Terran wrote:On July 14 2006 18:47 sdpgposd wrote:
TH_Terran, take a hint buddy. People dont like the way you're acting in these forums. The way im acting in these forums...... i havent flamed talked bad too or any bad thing u can think of until now b/c sum1 wants me banned. Yeah, you're life on this forum is so vast i've got a huge amount of posts to choose from. You can't just go around saying 'wtf are u talking about' to people in the strategy section or any section for that matter, people are making valid points and you're not discussing them at all. I was dicussing until yall decided to flame me. Read all of the quotes b4 saying that Plz. Okay...just stop posting PLEASE. After looking at "The dilema" thread I come here just to find you going off again. Please stop.
LOL Ok im not flaming but i think ur quote choices are a bit late. I apoligize and i wont post into things i dont know. IM SORRY TL COMMUNITY, OK?!?!?!?! Look im dun getting flamed if u wanna flame me PM me.
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O yea. And ZvT and TvZ are my best matchups if ur gunna flame me it better b for a fuking good reason. I know i ve made stupid quotes but forget about them. Now that im in this type of situation im going to have to make up for what just happened. Sure yall MAY (Ive been playing for years) have more understanding then me but ive been playing seriously(as in trying to get better) since December and ive gotten a hell of alot better and smarter. Ive actually beaten sum1 good(In my opinion)
NeX-Secret (im srry secret if u can read this i mean no pressure or making fun of at you)
If u wanna test me ill b on.
East Server
Name:NeX-Terran
Or PM me ill also come to tl-west channel and b on Th_Terran.
Edit: I meant Me Terran U Zerg or Me Zerg U Terran
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United States10774 Posts
What are you suggesting here, that we play you so you make up for your stupidity?
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On July 15 2006 22:19 OneOther wrote:
What are you suggesting here, that we play you so you make up for your stupidity?
I think we need to play him to make up for his stupidity AND his grammar.
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Terran, i'll play you if u like. I havent played melee for about 2-3 months (ive played the odd UMS thats it)
PM me when u wanna play.
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EPT
