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On June 16 2013 18:02 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 15:45 Vies wrote:On June 16 2013 12:07 xRiotZx wrote:
Also to anyone who recommends the CC first into hellions into 3 CC, I have to make you aware, it's great at the pro level yes, but very bad at the diamond/masters level, since diamond/masters opponents will simply all in, or pressure you, and completely shit on your economic advantage, or the player performing it won't have the apm to do so.
. This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. This build works in any league if you know how to scout and react to zerg aggression. I'll help you begin. Pros deal with MUCH MORE ALLINS than you EVER will. Pros use what they use because it is EFFECTIVE vs the majority of the allins (IF NOT ALL). I downloaded this replay because someone in the reply mentioned marine tank (jesus fucking outdated christ) in the replay so I had to watch. Sure, 3 cc hellion openers might be a bit risky if your mechanics arent up to scratch, but what you are doing in this replay is way off dude. You mention in your other reply that if you fix your TvZ you'll get your way back to masters and GM. Heres the truth buddy. You played like a terran one year into Wings of Liberty. Screw masters and GM, I dont even know how you made it into diamond man. You opened two base bio tank with no bunker or wall off at the front, which is actually pretty allin by today's standards, but Im going to skip that. You pushed out blind with no combat shield, one medevac for a gigantic army, proceed to PARK on the creep with no siege, bunched up, miraculously you didnt lose the game right there, you proceeded to move around blindly in FULL VISION of the zerg, walk down a ramp into a choke, and get raped right there without even bothering to stim or split until everything was pretty much was dead. That right there is silver league shit dude. Your opponent was cheating? Thats your excuse in the OP? He banked 1500 minerals before the 9 minute mark and was obviously distracted by your odd and outdated opener since he was really confused after floating his OS in, saw too much production facilities for two bases and saw no third. "How the fuck do you even deal with that?" Try NOT pushing out blind. Try NOT parking your army on creep in full vision. What you think you are playing protoss or something? Not even protoss dares to push out this blindly, and you prefer using marine tank - which is the most fragile and information reliant army comp in the terran arsenal. Advice for you? Other than micro/macro mechancis issue? Fix your opener. There are much better bio tank openers than what you can muster up with. If you really want my advice, go pure marine marauder two base. Dont bother with the tanks. Get more medevacs and see how that fits. If you really cannot handle hellion only openers, try hellion banshee. If you dont understand the concept of hellion banshee, then just straight marine marauder medevac. You arent ready for marine tank yet dude, and its not even a good general strategy since 2 years ago. To quote yourself, the last time you used this opener was in Wings of liberty. It doesnt work anymore dude. Regarding your standard opener - nowadays pros open 3 cc hellion while still being able to afford a full wall off, a bunker and a marauder with two marines in the bunker before any kind of all in hits - consider checking into those replays/vods/ or even threads (there was one on here recently) If you still dont like it, try hellion banshee, especially since the patch is coming around.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
1. Marine Tank is hands-down no argument about it, superior to 4M. You can't focus fire with mines, you can't dodge mine friendly fire, you can't micro mines, you can't reuse them in an engagement. You can keep playing with 4M because you think it's godlike, because some pro player used it in a tournament you watched.
2. I played an experimental game, to see if a WoL strategy, one that was core, allowed me to take a decent macro game, defend against any all ins, and didn't involve using noob fucking units like mines or hellbats to get a lead. Just because I played a game, where I winged it, doesn't mean I'm a bad player, in fact, if you're anything short of GM, I bet I could beat you using my cock to manage my control groups, you chose to get nasty, so I'll get nasty back.
3. My timing push was bad? It was yeah, but that was the most units you could possibly make on 2 bases by 10 minutes without going totally all in.
4. I didn't micro? Why the fuck would I need to spread against Hydras and Roaches (WHICH I DID ANYWAY), and why would I siege on creep, so he knows where I'm sitting my fucking army, so he can go around it and rape my nat? Are you retarded?
5. How I made it into Diamond? LOL, LOL, LOL, I beat trash talking kids like you with macro, multitasking, and legit play, not hellbat drops and fucking widow mine zoning.
6. Lastly, no wall? The fuck are you on about, I specifically placed my structures to be effective against runbys, and I don't know who is going to give me a runby when they're going Roach/Hydra.
When you want to 1v1, pm me, I played a tournament not too long ago, went through 3 masters to get to the finals where I lost to a Korean GM Zerg, and I don't think you're a Korean GM. One bad game, where I experimented, is no reflection on my game, so fuck off with that nonsense.
No offense taken, no offense given. Thanks for the critique.
To everyone else, I'll say it again 12 gas, 13 rax. I don't go cc first, into 3 cc, I go gas first hellions into 3 cc. Now, it works great when your first 4 hellions are done, you can do some damage to his drones, deny some creep, but you've only got 2 minutes tops before he makes 40+ lings or 15+ roaches and denies your map control or just loads his roaches into ol and drops your main because you've invested in a wall and a third cc instead of an army. I don't think macro openings work versus Zerg, maybe the reason Innovation's 3 cc works is because he's waaaaay more skilled than anyone he plays. I think macro openings against Zerg are suicide. I also think at high levels, hellion openings are near suicide. You need some kind of bio/mech aggression early in the game (7-9 minutes), to get some kind of leg up, while still having your nat down, and your 3rd about to start. Atm, I think the metagame for Terran is kind of polluted by all these new corny-ass compositions, in the eventuality I think straight bio, or marine/tank is still the strongest composition available. It allows mobility and area control, two items that usually aren't combined in a composition. Zerg has so many ways to apply significant pressure without even dropping a beat, which makes going for economic openings really tough. I mean the last 5-6 TvZ games I've played, I've went for macro openings, and Zerg has busted/roached/linged me hard enough to deny my nat, while they take their third. It's becoming increasingly hard to play one of the two possible ways, pressure/harass deny, while slowly macroing, or go for a straight up macro late game.
User was warned for this post
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You're pretty bm, but I'll bite:
- You supply lock yourself for 42 seconds before 4:30 into the game.
- No attempt to keep overlords from seeing that you went 3rax and no factory (a marine at the edge to check for that). What do you think the Z response will be when seeing 3rax, tech lab, and no factory on 2 base?
- Watching this game is like going through a time portal into 2010/2011. What is this? Even if you were doing the WoL-release marine tank timing, it's late
- 8:24 to 9:20, supply locked for almost a minute
- only 40 scvs around the 10 minute mark to 50 drones on 3 bases
- You first step onto creep at 11:00 and do nothing for 30 seconds while showing him your army comp and letting him prepare for your attack.
- No 3rd base in sight, you're basically allin
- 43 workers at 11:00. 49 workers at 12:20
Not much else needs to be said for this game. Your macro is terrible and you shit on people trying to help you.
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On June 17 2013 02:00 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 18:02 padfoota wrote:On June 16 2013 15:45 Vies wrote:On June 16 2013 12:07 xRiotZx wrote:
Also to anyone who recommends the CC first into hellions into 3 CC, I have to make you aware, it's great at the pro level yes, but very bad at the diamond/masters level, since diamond/masters opponents will simply all in, or pressure you, and completely shit on your economic advantage, or the player performing it won't have the apm to do so.
. This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. This build works in any league if you know how to scout and react to zerg aggression. I'll help you begin. Pros deal with MUCH MORE ALLINS than you EVER will. Pros use what they use because it is EFFECTIVE vs the majority of the allins (IF NOT ALL). I downloaded this replay because someone in the reply mentioned marine tank (jesus fucking outdated christ) in the replay so I had to watch. Sure, 3 cc hellion openers might be a bit risky if your mechanics arent up to scratch, but what you are doing in this replay is way off dude. You mention in your other reply that if you fix your TvZ you'll get your way back to masters and GM. Heres the truth buddy. You played like a terran one year into Wings of Liberty. Screw masters and GM, I dont even know how you made it into diamond man. You opened two base bio tank with no bunker or wall off at the front, which is actually pretty allin by today's standards, but Im going to skip that. You pushed out blind with no combat shield, one medevac for a gigantic army, proceed to PARK on the creep with no siege, bunched up, miraculously you didnt lose the game right there, you proceeded to move around blindly in FULL VISION of the zerg, walk down a ramp into a choke, and get raped right there without even bothering to stim or split until everything was pretty much was dead. That right there is silver league shit dude. Your opponent was cheating? Thats your excuse in the OP? He banked 1500 minerals before the 9 minute mark and was obviously distracted by your odd and outdated opener since he was really confused after floating his OS in, saw too much production facilities for two bases and saw no third. "How the fuck do you even deal with that?" Try NOT pushing out blind. Try NOT parking your army on creep in full vision. What you think you are playing protoss or something? Not even protoss dares to push out this blindly, and you prefer using marine tank - which is the most fragile and information reliant army comp in the terran arsenal. Advice for you? Other than micro/macro mechancis issue? Fix your opener. There are much better bio tank openers than what you can muster up with. If you really want my advice, go pure marine marauder two base. Dont bother with the tanks. Get more medevacs and see how that fits. If you really cannot handle hellion only openers, try hellion banshee. If you dont understand the concept of hellion banshee, then just straight marine marauder medevac. You arent ready for marine tank yet dude, and its not even a good general strategy since 2 years ago. To quote yourself, the last time you used this opener was in Wings of liberty. It doesnt work anymore dude. Regarding your standard opener - nowadays pros open 3 cc hellion while still being able to afford a full wall off, a bunker and a marauder with two marines in the bunker before any kind of all in hits - consider checking into those replays/vods/ or even threads (there was one on here recently) If you still dont like it, try hellion banshee, especially since the patch is coming around. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. 1. Marine Tank is hands-down no argument about it, superior to 4M. You can't focus fire with mines, you can't dodge mine friendly fire, you can't micro mines, you can't reuse them in an engagement. You can keep playing with 4M because you think it's godlike, because some pro player used it in a tournament you watched. 2. I played an experimental game, to see if a WoL strategy, one that was core, allowed me to take a decent macro game, defend against any all ins, and didn't involve using noob fucking units like mines or hellbats to get a lead. Just because I played a game, where I winged it, doesn't mean I'm a bad player, in fact, if you're anything short of GM, I bet I could beat you using my cock to manage my control groups, you chose to get nasty, so I'll get nasty back. 3. My timing push was bad? It was yeah, but that was the most units you could possibly make on 2 bases by 10 minutes without going totally all in. 4. I didn't micro? Why the fuck would I need to spread against Hydras and Roaches (WHICH I DID ANYWAY), and why would I siege on creep, so he knows where I'm sitting my fucking army, so he can go around it and rape my nat? Are you retarded? 5. How I made it into Diamond? LOL, LOL, LOL, I beat trash talking kids like you with macro, multitasking, and legit play, not hellbat drops and fucking widow mine zoning. 6. Lastly, no wall? The fuck are you on about, I specifically placed my structures to be effective against runbys, and I don't know who is going to give me a runby when they're going Roach/Hydra. When you want to 1v1, pm me, I played a tournament not too long ago, went through 3 masters to get to the finals where I lost to a Korean GM Zerg, and I don't think you're a Korean GM. One bad game, where I experimented, is no reflection on my game, so fuck off with that nonsense. No offense taken, no offense given. Thanks for the critique. To everyone else, I'll say it again 12 gas, 13 rax. I don't go cc first, into 3 cc, I go gas first hellions into 3 cc. Now, it works great when your first 4 hellions are done, you can do some damage to his drones, deny some creep, but you've only got 2 minutes tops before he makes 40+ lings or 15+ roaches and denies your map control or just loads his roaches into ol and drops your main because you've invested in a wall and a third cc instead of an army. I don't think macro openings work versus Zerg, maybe the reason Innovation's 3 cc works is because he's waaaaay more skilled than anyone he plays. I think macro openings against Zerg are suicide. I also think at high levels, hellion openings are near suicide. You need some kind of bio/mech aggression early in the game (7-9 minutes), to get some kind of leg up, while still having your nat down, and your 3rd about to start. Atm, I think the metagame for Terran is kind of polluted by all these new corny-ass compositions, in the eventuality I think straight bio, or marine/tank is still the strongest composition available. It allows mobility and area control, two items that usually aren't combined in a composition. Zerg has so many ways to apply significant pressure without even dropping a beat, which makes going for economic openings really tough. I mean the last 5-6 TvZ games I've played, I've went for macro openings, and Zerg has busted/roached/linged me hard enough to deny my nat, while they take their third. It's becoming increasingly hard to play one of the two possible ways, pressure/harass deny, while slowly macroing, or go for a straight up macro late game.
Most terrans at diamond and higher level on NA do the cc first or reaper fe into hellions into 3 CC at least half their games.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 17 2013 02:00 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 18:02 padfoota wrote:On June 16 2013 15:45 Vies wrote:On June 16 2013 12:07 xRiotZx wrote:
Also to anyone who recommends the CC first into hellions into 3 CC, I have to make you aware, it's great at the pro level yes, but very bad at the diamond/masters level, since diamond/masters opponents will simply all in, or pressure you, and completely shit on your economic advantage, or the player performing it won't have the apm to do so.
. This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. This build works in any league if you know how to scout and react to zerg aggression. I'll help you begin. Pros deal with MUCH MORE ALLINS than you EVER will. Pros use what they use because it is EFFECTIVE vs the majority of the allins (IF NOT ALL). I downloaded this replay because someone in the reply mentioned marine tank (jesus fucking outdated christ) in the replay so I had to watch. Sure, 3 cc hellion openers might be a bit risky if your mechanics arent up to scratch, but what you are doing in this replay is way off dude. You mention in your other reply that if you fix your TvZ you'll get your way back to masters and GM. Heres the truth buddy. You played like a terran one year into Wings of Liberty. Screw masters and GM, I dont even know how you made it into diamond man. You opened two base bio tank with no bunker or wall off at the front, which is actually pretty allin by today's standards, but Im going to skip that. You pushed out blind with no combat shield, one medevac for a gigantic army, proceed to PARK on the creep with no siege, bunched up, miraculously you didnt lose the game right there, you proceeded to move around blindly in FULL VISION of the zerg, walk down a ramp into a choke, and get raped right there without even bothering to stim or split until everything was pretty much was dead. That right there is silver league shit dude. Your opponent was cheating? Thats your excuse in the OP? He banked 1500 minerals before the 9 minute mark and was obviously distracted by your odd and outdated opener since he was really confused after floating his OS in, saw too much production facilities for two bases and saw no third. "How the fuck do you even deal with that?" Try NOT pushing out blind. Try NOT parking your army on creep in full vision. What you think you are playing protoss or something? Not even protoss dares to push out this blindly, and you prefer using marine tank - which is the most fragile and information reliant army comp in the terran arsenal. Advice for you? Other than micro/macro mechancis issue? Fix your opener. There are much better bio tank openers than what you can muster up with. If you really want my advice, go pure marine marauder two base. Dont bother with the tanks. Get more medevacs and see how that fits. If you really cannot handle hellion only openers, try hellion banshee. If you dont understand the concept of hellion banshee, then just straight marine marauder medevac. You arent ready for marine tank yet dude, and its not even a good general strategy since 2 years ago. To quote yourself, the last time you used this opener was in Wings of liberty. It doesnt work anymore dude. Regarding your standard opener - nowadays pros open 3 cc hellion while still being able to afford a full wall off, a bunker and a marauder with two marines in the bunker before any kind of all in hits - consider checking into those replays/vods/ or even threads (there was one on here recently) If you still dont like it, try hellion banshee, especially since the patch is coming around. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. 1. Marine Tank is hands-down no argument about it, superior to 4M. You can't focus fire with mines, you can't dodge mine friendly fire, you can't micro mines, you can't reuse them in an engagement. You can keep playing with 4M because you think it's godlike, because some pro player used it in a tournament you watched.
You can focus fire mines.
You can micro mines.
Perhaps pro players use it because it's the best way to play that they've found?
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Is there an actual point to this thread anymore? It started off with xRiotZx asking for advice on how to improve his TvZ play, but now he says he got the matchup figured out better than anyone else so... what's there to talk about?
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On June 17 2013 02:00 xRiotZx wrote:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
<snip>
User was warned for this post
ok mister perfect, I guess we'll see you in the WCS sometime beating all the koreans then, since you obviously have the TvZ matchup nailed down so much better than all the professional gamers playing this game.
also please make a terran guide so you can also educate all those professional gamers in our TvZ (even though they are winning it anyways) so they can win it the Right Way™
</sarcasm>
please if you're going to make a topic for help, actually take the criticism.
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Don't post an H thread if you don't want the help.
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I'm not the one who started bming, look to mr. high and mighty low masters for the original source of bm. I was just bitching him out for being a cunt.
Anyway, as far as my macro being bad, yes it was. Mines can't be focus fired lol, I don't know where you got that idea, and if I'm wrong show me.
Also, let's just cut this shit out right away, not being mean here, but CC first is gay, so just leave me alone with 3 CC, you guys should work on more original openings, don't you think doing the same opening let's your opponent in on what you're doing? Kinda the reason nobody does the same thing every game in a series, because then it would be easy as shit to beat.
Anyone got a better macro opening, with some harass potential than CC first into 3 CC?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 16 2013 12:07 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 10:45 Elldar wrote:
Wtf, you kept attacking with a mediocre marine/marauder tank army into a zerg. Not even one attack was good or had potential to do damage. If you really think you can win with such constant mediocre attacks then keep losing. Those type of attack is just giving away units. Just so bad I mean there is no real strategic issue build order wise except for the second engineering bay that was far to early. Just that rallying units into zerg is so fucking bad. Besides when you realized that he got no mutas you should had start dropping. Nakes drop against mutalisks is terrible, but against hydra roach it is the best. So wen you saw that he went hydra roach you should had started to drop and secured a fourth base then let your economic advantage kick in. This is a really unintelligable post, non-constructive, short-sighted and ignorant, and I don't like it. Marine/Tank is by no means mediocre, that's probably why it's been the metagame in TvZ since WoL first dropped. So just fuck off with this kind of stupidity. _______ ANYWAY ______ + Show Spoiler +
Sensible posts from everyone else. I agree, you have to harass versus Zerg, but I was going into the game with the idea, I could at least win with my initial push and start clearing creep/harassing bases, but he had so much more shit than me, which is fucking unbelievable, since usually when I do this opening, I just overwhelm my opponent with macro and tank zoning, (Last time I did this opening was Diamond League on WoL). But apparently, Zerg's know how to make units instead of drones now.
Once my first push died, I knew the game was over, I hesitated gging right there, just to see if he buckled from any additional pushes.
My standard opening is 12 gas, 13 rax, factory @ 100, barracks reactor @ 50, pull all gas workers, expand, constant hellions rallied to his bases/creep line. Problem is, this almost always gets followed up with huge ling runbys into my nat, which I can't defend, because I sunk my minerals into hellions, and not marines/bunkers. Or the guy goes for a 2 base roach all in, which I simply can't defend without dropping 3-4 bunkers, which I'm not able to do without getting behind, when I'm applying pressure on a mineral based sink. I've tried alternates to my, heavy defense/heavy harass expands. I've opened with reactored mines, but versus people with brains (diamond and up apparently) they just run 1 ling in, and all my mines go off, and then he just rushes in and rapes me. The only unit I've had success with in the early game is the Hellbat, and let's face it, Hellbats are broken as fuck, I'm a Terran, and I think so, and so does Blizzard apparently, since they're planning to nerf them in the next patch, anyway, the point of this is, I don't want to bank on imbalanced units, because that doesn't help me improve.
I watch Innovation dominate TvZ with nothing but macro, and rally-based fighting, he barely micros his units, yeah he drops, and plants a mine here and there, and of course spreads, but that's about the whole of his micro, he just straight up dominates the macro game, and I was attempting that here.
Also to anyone who recommends the CC first into hellions into 3 CC, I have to make you aware, it's great at the pro level yes, but very bad at the diamond/masters level, since diamond/masters opponents will simply all in, or pressure you, and completely shit on your economic advantage, or the player performing it won't have the apm to do so.
Personally my experience with Innovation's 3 CC has been very bad, watching Zerg creep the entire map by 16, and max out at 15 on ling/bling/muta, while I struggle to hold my 4th from bane runbys and muta harass. Economic openings just don't see like any sane person should use them in TvZ, that is by all accounts, saying Innovation is insane. xD
I just checked my WLR for the season. Currently it stands at even 49% and 52%ish in TvP and TvT, and a whopping 20% in TvZ, this is obviously the thing keeping me from getting back to Top 8, and I need to fix it so I can finally get into masters and eventually gm.
I wasn't saying that marine marauder tank is mediocre I said that your army that you kept pushing out with was mediocre. If you can't see how bad it was then by all means keep losing.
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It may have been bad, but this guy was by no means "Top 100 Diamond" I mean he had 300 apm, he was mid-masters at least.
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Germany25649 Posts
Closing because the OP won't be able to respond for a couple of days
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EPT
