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On March 02 2013 02:49 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 02:28 kollin wrote:On March 02 2013 02:23 FiWiFaKi wrote:On March 02 2013 01:24 aike wrote:Starcraft 2: $6,865,805.70 in prize money over 696 tournaments. League of Legends: $4,186,941.01 in prize money over 80 tournaments, with $1,970,000.00 (47%!) of that from Riot's Season 2 finals. Pretty interesting... most of that league prize money is from Riot, while almost none of the SC2 money is from Blizzard. I'd say SC2 is pretty healthy, and not dying  I actually added all the prize money in 2012 in both games, and LoL was about 500k~ up on Starcraft 2 in that year. Nobody is denying that Starcraft is easily a Top 3 esport in the world. The issue here is the decline, organizers such as IPL cannot any longer support the 100k prize pool, which shows stagnation or deflation in the scene. Either IPL predicted starcraft would get larger so the 100k was an investment, or 100k was sustainable before, but with a shrinking scene its not possible anymore. And I think a lot of organizers are in that boat. SC2:WoL has BY FAR the largest ratio of prize money to viewer numbers in the esport industry, and that is because of expected growth, however the larger that ratio is, the less room to grow there is. For example LoL is getting 5-20x more viewers than Starcraft tournaments, yet their prize pools are pretty similar - that just means SC2 is better structured, and the infrastructure is being set up for LoL. I think the age of Starcraft 2 we are in right now if you compare it to that of a person is about 35 years. Yeah, you're not dying, but things are becoming tougher, lots of the beauties of life have already happened, and you're having more trouble staying healthy, but you still have a ways to go. Because LoL is using the "freemium" model, they have incentive to spend great deals of money on tournaments, while realistically Blizzard doesn't benefit nearly as much. According to Liquipedia and a few other sources SC2 is actually up on LoL last year. While I don't doubt your maths ability, I trust Liquipedia on these matters above most other people. Also, I think that Riot bumping up LoL's prize pool artifcially (using their own money) isn't a good think, same with The International in Dota 2. However, that's a discussion for another topic ^^ I just added up all premier and major events in both SC2 wiki and LoL wiki. I suppose considering Team events aren't included in those, and LoL doesn't have any "team events" per say, that could overcome the 500k deficit, still pretty close either way. Riot is spending $5,000,000 on the 2013 season from the little research I did, which is impressive. The 140k LoL viewers vs 8k WoL + 4k HotS viewers has to be considered too though when it comes to growth (who wants to become a pro gamer in a game that's at a steady decline?), and also the streaming revenue associated with that. $2-$3 per 1000 impressions, adblock included 60% impression rate means $1.2-$1.8 per user. Lets use numbers of 80k average viewers for LoL and 10k for SC2, and you have an average of $120 of revenue per commercial, using an average rate of 2 commercials per hour you get that League of Legends makes $240 an hour while SC2 makes $30 an hour. That $210 per hour difference translates to about 1.8 million a year. Yes, during tournaments the numbers fluctuate, SC2 may gets something upwards to excess of 50k, but at the same time LoL gets 250k for it's tournaments too, again this is a rough approximation just to see the difference. As to your second point: I'll keep it short and sweet, the way the international works, I don't think it's really good, it brings players in, but eh, just not effective at keeping them. Riot hosts not one tournament, but spreads them out, so in a way, they are the federation in their game that controls who's playing who etc, and that means no oversaturation and such.
Yeah I'm pretty sure both games were very close, but I remember SC2 just edging out LoL. I don't think I got my second point across that well, I meant that it might drive away potential tournament organisers that can't compete with the LCS in terms of prize pool. Anyway, as I said wrong place.
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On March 02 2013 02:44 Zealously wrote:
If you bring age into this argument as if age is actually significant, you're probably pretty stupid. But then again, this entire thread seems to be somewhat silly.
I'm making an analogy to a life cycle of a game to that of the average person can relate to by relating it to life. You can go on and indirectly call me stupid, but you haven't provided an argument as to why bringing age into this debate is stupid. I'm curious because I'm seen as relatively smart by my peers (and take it as you will I am a top 20 percentile engineering student, and currently enrolled in school of business too), so I would like to see where you're drawing that conclusion from.
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On March 02 2013 02:55 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 02:44 Zealously wrote:
If you bring age into this argument as if age is actually significant, you're probably pretty stupid. But then again, this entire thread seems to be somewhat silly. I'm making an analogy to a life cycle of a game to that of the average person can relate to by relation it to life. You can go on and indirectly call me stupid, but you haven't provided an argument as to why bringing age into this debate is stupid. I'm curious because I'm seen as relatively smart by my peers (and take it as you will I am a top 20 percentile engineering student, and currently enrolled in school of business too), so I would like to see where you're drawing that conclusion from.
He's not referring to you, don't worry.
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It's sad to see because IPL hosted events in a very professional way and was one media that was good exposure for the NA starcraft scene. I always though there was too much money involved in the sc2 world for the profitability. People also seem to see Hots as new game but it's really not the case. It's not going to boost the numbers by a significant margin for a long time. As soon as the korean market didn't took off we kinda knew it would never get near the BW phenomena. I'd say the starcraft scene will be around for a long time but will likely stay smaller than some people want.
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Come on Redbull, scoots said you were buying this and sending kevin to space...where you at? 
#SaveIPL
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Don't stop IPTL! 
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On March 02 2013 03:00 scDeluX wrote:
It's sad to see because IPL hosted events in a very professional way and was one media that was good exposure for the NA starcraft scene. I always though there was too much money involved in the sc2 world for the profitability. People also seem to see Hots as new game but it's really not the case. It's not going to boost the numbers by a significant margin for a long time. As soon as the korean market didn't took off we kinda knew it would never get near the BW phenomena. I'd say the starcraft scene will be around for a long time but will likely stay smaller than some people want.
f2p would save starcraft .
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On March 02 2013 03:10 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 03:00 scDeluX wrote:
It's sad to see because IPL hosted events in a very professional way and was one media that was good exposure for the NA starcraft scene. I always though there was too much money involved in the sc2 world for the profitability. People also seem to see Hots as new game but it's really not the case. It's not going to boost the numbers by a significant margin for a long time. As soon as the korean market didn't took off we kinda knew it would never get near the BW phenomena. I'd say the starcraft scene will be around for a long time but will likely stay smaller than some people want. f2p would save starcraft .
I think the custom games and social aspect of the game needs to be improved a little bit, and then that would potentially be true, but we know f2p isn't coming anytime soon regardless. SC2 is just too hardcore and frustrating for the average gamer. SC2 doesn't need to be huge to be good. Even in Broodwar, now that the scene is a lot smaller, there are some awesome games still happening, less money, but it's still the same thing, same fun.
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On March 02 2013 03:14 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 03:10 xsnac wrote:On March 02 2013 03:00 scDeluX wrote:
It's sad to see because IPL hosted events in a very professional way and was one media that was good exposure for the NA starcraft scene. I always though there was too much money involved in the sc2 world for the profitability. People also seem to see Hots as new game but it's really not the case. It's not going to boost the numbers by a significant margin for a long time. As soon as the korean market didn't took off we kinda knew it would never get near the BW phenomena. I'd say the starcraft scene will be around for a long time but will likely stay smaller than some people want. f2p would save starcraft . I think the custom games and social aspect of the game needs to be improved a little bit, and then that would potentially be true, but we know f2p isn't coming anytime soon regardless. SC2 is just too hardcore and frustrating for the average gamer. SC2 doesn't need to be huge to be good. Even in Broodwar, now that the scene is a lot smaller, there are some awesome games still happening, less money, but it's still the same thing, same fun.
F2P is also unproven for the long term and only became truely viable after LoL hit is big. Other games are doing it as well, with limited success. But it is a VERY differnet model to make games and a company cannot just switch over to that model on a dime. It takes long term planning and expericnce to do the process right, unlike what most people think.
Also, Blizzard shouln't chase Riot in the F2P model. The last ten years have been filled with companies chasing WoW and trying to make their own MMO with over 10 million users. All of those companies took it in the teeth because of those efforts. I would rather Blizzard stick to what they are good with and make boxed products. Maybe DLC later on and find some way to get good content without the 3 year gap. But there is no need for SC2 to go full F2P and I think the game might be worse for it.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On March 02 2013 02:55 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 02:44 Zealously wrote:
If you bring age into this argument as if age is actually significant, you're probably pretty stupid. But then again, this entire thread seems to be somewhat silly. I'm making an analogy to a life cycle of a game to that of the average person can relate to by relating it to life. You can go on and indirectly call me stupid, but you haven't provided an argument as to why bringing age into this debate is stupid. I'm curious because I'm seen as relatively smart by my peers (and take it as you will I am a top 20 percentile engineering student, and currently enrolled in school of business too), so I would like to see where you're drawing that conclusion from.
I don't do indirect, passive-aggressive posts. If I had any interest in arguing with you, I'd take it with you specifically. My post was aimed at anyone who thinks kollin's arguments become any less valid because he is 13 years old, or that teenagers cannot draw conclusions because they are teenagers. If you also believe this, then yes; I believe you are stupid because that makes little sense. But no matter, I think it is great that you actually attempt to bring facts into the discussion, because most people don't.
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Now I'm sad.
If this is true I'm really sad.
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Well, people have been saying that these kinds of business models aren't sustainable...
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On March 02 2013 04:04 Taku wrote:
Well, people have been saying that these kinds of business models aren't sustainable...
If done incorrectly and you lose your backing. Sundance has reported that MGL is doing fine and is profitable. NASL seems to be chugging alone and is a partner with Blizzard. Its just a hard fact that someone was going to get it wrong and IPL was the the one.
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On March 02 2013 04:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 04:04 Taku wrote:
Well, people have been saying that these kinds of business models aren't sustainable... If done incorrectly and you lose your backing. Sundance has reported that MGL is doing fine and is profitable. NASL seems to be chugging alone and is a partner with Blizzard. Its just a hard fact that someone was going to get it wrong and IPL was the the one.
I wonder how much of a financial impact IGN's sponsorship of Team Reign had on their overall budget, and whether or not the team's failure is at all at play in IPL's present day difficulties.
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It's a little strange that IPL is gonna cancel after the bookings and all, one can hope they're still discussing selling terms to someone so they cannot answer to inquiries.... still, i have to fear the worst, and it would be a giant pity
@Fiwikaki
I must start saying that i've never seen so much disiformation in a single poster, and believe me i saw a ton of it.
You're trying to get on the good old "sc2 is dying" train, and your arguments are:
You're comparing the 12k viewers of Sc2 in a moment when there's pretty much nothing going on except the Xilence Cup, which with its 200 viewers is much much less than a good streamer, to a major LoL event that is still "only" taking in 100k viewers right now.... okay, i'm gonna do a post someday this year when WCS is up and LoL has nothing so i can declare LoL's death.
Then comes the "eeeh Sc2 is old" argument, so old that HotS is being launched in 11 days, and historically all of Blizzard's games have been selling at least on par, usually better after their expansions, instead of the first after-launch period (which is quite strange compared to the competition)
then you go on saying that LoL does 5x-20x viewers than Sc2, LOL*! Do you really believe that? please show me the 480k-1.800k a LoL tournament does compared to the usual 60-90k concurrent viewers of the major Sc2 events, thanks ^^
*it's actually a page ago or something
Are you trolling or something?
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On March 02 2013 04:09 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 04:06 Plansix wrote:On March 02 2013 04:04 Taku wrote:
Well, people have been saying that these kinds of business models aren't sustainable... If done incorrectly and you lose your backing. Sundance has reported that MGL is doing fine and is profitable. NASL seems to be chugging alone and is a partner with Blizzard. Its just a hard fact that someone was going to get it wrong and IPL was the the one. I wonder how much of a financial impact IGN's sponsorship of Team Reign had on their overall budget, and whether or not the team's failure is at all at play in IPL's present day difficulties.
I have no information to back this up, but from my outside view, IGN as a whole seemed really confused about what it was and some very poor decisions were made. They seemed very confused about video games, the internet and what their site did at a whole. I think being owned by Newscorp and the oversite that came with that hurt them, which is why they wanted to get away from that. Justing my personal view, but they have been a confused website for a while now.
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Just seems so weird that they are still casting qualifiers for the event... It would be easy to stop casting shows and be silent but to continue running new content just seems counter-intuitive to this premise. They casted something like 8 qualifying matches a matter of hours before this post went up. I'm not going to feel one bit of pity for anyone that cancels rooms or flights only to find out the event is still on and I'm also starting to think IGN really doesn't need to comment on the words of a twitter guy and some bored people in a forum.
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I COULD TOTALLY see that coming!
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On March 02 2013 04:21 rafaliusz wrote:
I COULD TOTALLY see that coming!
Everyone did since the rumors and Gamespy/etc shutting down...
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On March 02 2013 04:21 Jeffhesser wrote:
Just seems so weird that they are still casting qualifiers for the event... It would be easy to stop casting shows and be silent but to continue running new content just seems counter-intuitive to this premise. They casted something like 8 qualifying matches a matter of hours before this post went up. I'm not going to feel one bit of pity for anyone that cancels rooms or flights only to find out the event is still on and I'm also starting to think IGN really doesn't need to comment on the words of a twitter guy and some bored people in a forum.
Eh, while you could be right about the whole "IGN shouldn't need to comment on rumors", the fact that rumors are both so insistent and that teams themselves are worried(read kennigit's words) -requires- an official notice, even if it's only a tweet or w/e,we could argue if it's either unprofessional or not, but even if a single player cancels it's flight due to this it's a clear loss for both the event and the viewership of it, a damage that would've been avoided with a single, laconic official notice.... really, what do you lose in making a "all is still fine, see you in vegas" tweet or something?
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EPT
