On February 17 2013 03:45 number01 wrote: The cop is obviously a murderer and he should be treated as one. Seeing more situations like this makes me want to support the acquisition of weapons for civilians even more.
The fact that the victim had a gun meant that the cop was correct in his original assessment.
I've said this before in the thread, but no matter who you are, you do not approach a cop if they are pulling you over. You are not allowed to step out of your vehicle if you are pulled over and they will approach your vehicle with a hand on their holster.
Its nothing personal, but they don't know who you are. Once he made the determination that the civilian had a gun, he suddenly became much more dangerous.
The person was flashing gang signs while jay walking at midnight. His two buddies proceeded to surround the cop vehicle when they should've waited where they were for further instruction.
Did the cop make an error? HELL YES. Was it his fault? Not entirely. Had the individuals not acted so erratically and stated immediately that they had a firearm on hand, then likely this would not have happened. The result of their behavior resulted in a fight or flight situation for both the victim and the cop. The cop is supposed to be trained to fight that instinct, but consider the amount of time the passed. It takes several times longer to read the police report description than the event actually lasted. His adrenaline would've been pumping and he had very little context prior to the situation, thus resulting in poor judgement.
It is entirely possible and very likely that the LAPD is corrupt and abusive, but this is not one of the cases. This is, in my opinion, a situation that proceeded as a result of natural fears, errors, threats, etc. and not the result of a cop attempting to abuse his power.
Do you really believe what you type? are you that naive?
I don't understand. You want to give more people guns?
The European's in this thread always talk about their police forces, but I don't think we're being entirely fair to American police. They have to expect weapons no matter who they pull over.
This may be true in other nations, but its much more true in our country. Its additional duress on the cop.
I don't think its fair if you call me naive if you believe that more guns would be the proper solution.
This idea simply isn't true. Yes, people in the US have lots of guns. But they do not shoot cops every chance they get, even criminals don't.
Only 72? In 2011, zero British cops were killed in the line of duty. I posted this earlier but most would of missed it, and I only compared the USA to the UK, but you have roughly 20 cops dying on duty for each one that we have (adjusted for population). Being a cop in the USA is dangerous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_police_officers The US has 794,300 police officers. Only 72 were killed in the line of duty. So what if it's relatively more common than in the UK, it still isn't a frequent occurrence. It certainly isn't enough to warrant a "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality.
I'm not sure what you are discussing here? Whether or not 72 deaths are a lot or not is fairly irrelevant, the mindset of the cops is what is important. Most people don't hold those kind of stats in their mind and base their fears on it. If you are wondering if US cops have a shoot first ask question later attitude it would be more relevant to look at the other side of the coin, of how many guns shot injuries/deaths the cops are responsible for or something like that.
I think it is relevant. Some cops might use excessive force because they are just vicious people, but I think it is reasonable to assume that if a cop feels in danger then he is more likely to use strong force. The cops do not need to know the stats because they work the job. They must know how dangerous their area is and are likely to be more forceful when they are in more dangerous areas.
On February 17 2013 06:15 hzflank wrote: I think it is relevant. Some cops might use excessive force because they are just vicious people, but I think it is reasonable to assume that if a cop feels in danger then he is more likely to use strong force. The cops do not need to know the stats because they work the job. They must know how dangerous their area is and are likely to be more forceful when they are in more dangerous areas.
The fact that there were only 72 deaths seems to suggest that there aren't really ANY areas that are all that dangerous. Remember, its not 72 deaths for just LA, or even just California, its 72 deaths for the entire country.
On February 17 2013 06:15 hzflank wrote: I think it is relevant. Some cops might use excessive force because they are just vicious people, but I think it is reasonable to assume that if a cop feels in danger then he is more likely to use strong force. The cops do not need to know the stats because they work the job. They must know how dangerous their area is and are likely to be more forceful when they are in more dangerous areas.
The fact that there were only 72 deaths seems to suggest that there aren't really ANY areas that are all that dangerous. Remember, its not 72 deaths for just LA, or even just California, its 72 deaths for the entire country.
Right, so that is roughly 1 in 10,000 cops is killed on the job in a year. That is a high death rate for a developed country. My belief (which I admit I cannot substantiate) is that the more danger the cops are in the worse they will behave.
On February 17 2013 06:15 hzflank wrote: I think it is relevant. Some cops might use excessive force because they are just vicious people, but I think it is reasonable to assume that if a cop feels in danger then he is more likely to use strong force. The cops do not need to know the stats because they work the job. They must know how dangerous their area is and are likely to be more forceful when they are in more dangerous areas.
The fact that there were only 72 deaths seems to suggest that there aren't really ANY areas that are all that dangerous. Remember, its not 72 deaths for just LA, or even just California, its 72 deaths for the entire country.
Right, so that is roughly 1 in 10,000 cops is killed on the job in a year. That is a high death rate for a developed country. My belief (which I admit I cannot substantiate) is that the more danger the cops are in the worse they will behave.
It is a high death rate, but it's still extremely uncommon. If you were a cop, the likelyhood that you will be killed in the line of duty is 1 in 10,000. The odds seem to be in your favor here. You're more likely to die from crashing your car on your way to the police office in the morning than from a traffic stop gone bad or whatever.
On February 17 2013 05:16 FallDownMarigold wrote: I think the OP needs to post the factual analysis:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming, “Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’ waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying. Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
pronounced dead at 1:04 am.
Just for clarification that it was not a simple shooting of a guy running away with no other factors to consider. I'm not sure what to think, but I know that it should be important to consider all the facts.
Just from what i see in the video no chance this happend, it all went down much too fast!
He was just running becouse he wanted to avoid the control. No intention to shoot him at all.
LOL WHAT?
You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue what that man's intention was because you can't actually make any details of his facial expressions or his actual body language. Let me make it clear that both of those things are good indicators of what people are thinking or about to do.
To completely discount the events because 'it happened so fast' just so ignorance about just how quickly critical incidents go down. It looks like about five seconds right? Assuming that the report is true...it felt like a few minutes to that officer.
On February 17 2013 02:31 Ubiquitousdichotomy wrote: Please let the government take my guns i feel safer already
User was warned for this post
So um... your solution is to return fire on the cop or something??!
Would it have had been right to fire back at the cop, seeing how he was clearly violating the U.S Constitution? That was a rhetorical question because I know for a fact it would be sane and just. I mean in the sixth amendment it implies due process and this is a tyrannical act and that's the purpose of the second amendment, to protect ourselves from these people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
On February 17 2013 02:31 Ubiquitousdichotomy wrote: Please let the government take my guns i feel safer already
User was warned for this post
So um... your solution is to return fire on the cop or something??!
Would it have had been right to fire back at the cop, seeing how he was clearly violating the U.S Constitution? That was a rhetorical question because I know for a fact it would be sane and just. I mean in the sixth amendment it implies due process and this is a tyrannical act and that's the purpose of the second amendment, to protect ourselves from these people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Do you believe there is any interpretation of the sixth amendment that allows for an officer to kill a suspect? Your post does not seem to indicate so.
On February 17 2013 06:09 nihlon wrote: I'm not sure what you are discussing here? Whether or not 72 deaths are a lot or not is fairly irrelevant, the mindset of the cops is what is important. Most people don't hold those kind of stats in their mind and base their fears on it. If you are wondering if US cops have a shoot first ask question later attitude it would be more relevant to look at the other side of the coin, of how many guns shot injuries/deaths the cops are responsible for or something like that.
A huge part of the problem is that the mindset of American cops is based on an unjustified level of fear drilled into them in an attempt to promote officer safety with the unintended side effect of endangering the public. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, etc.
On February 17 2013 07:12 Blargh wrote: How can a TL;DR come before any text? I'd like a block of text giving more info please on the whole situation.
Also, I like the "slow motion kill" etc shit in video.
Ah, a reasonable request. Sure! Here ya go:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming, “Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’ waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying. Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
On February 17 2013 05:16 FallDownMarigold wrote: I think the OP needs to post the factual analysis:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming, “Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’ waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying. Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
pronounced dead at 1:04 am.
Just for clarification that it was not a simple shooting of a guy running away with no other factors to consider. I'm not sure what to think, but I know that it should be important to consider all the facts.
Just from what i see in the video no chance this happend, it all went down much too fast!
He was just running becouse he wanted to avoid the control. No intention to shoot him at all.
LOL WHAT?
You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue what that man's intention was because you can't actually make any details of his facial expressions or his actual body language. Let me make it clear that both of those things are good indicators of what people are thinking or about to do.
To completely discount the events because 'it happened so fast' just so ignorance about just how quickly critical incidents go down. It looks like about five seconds right? Assuming that the report is true...it felt like a few minutes to that officer.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned his upper body toward Jove.
This isnt happening! you can clearly see that the guy startet running 1 second after cop leaves his car
As Jove gave chase, he saw Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him.
HE is running full speed no chance to do something like that.
“You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming vehicles.
No car passing at this time of the event.
If he lied in this 3 occations i dont trus anything he says!
also:
On February 17 2013 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote: Yeah well he stated the view to the suspect was blocked thats why he was assuming it was a trap still he could clearly see he was pulling a gun (contradiction 1), The Video shows the guy running full speed away how can you turn around while running full speed (contradicition 2). The third thing is if you are shot and lying on the floor you natually reach for the wound and are unable to follow orders so there were no additional reason to shoot another 2 to 3 bullets.
On February 17 2013 01:31 mdb wrote: these news about LAPD always reminds me of
User was warned for this post
Yea. Just not a good song to have stuck in your head. Especially if you tend to sing to yourself. Probably should have put an explicit lyrics warning. <3 The Offspring though.
On topic, I'm surprised at how much the LAPD is getting away with things and wouldn't be surprised if they get cracked down on soon
On February 17 2013 05:16 FallDownMarigold wrote: I think the OP needs to post the factual analysis:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming, “Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’ waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying. Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
pronounced dead at 1:04 am.
Just for clarification that it was not a simple shooting of a guy running away with no other factors to consider. I'm not sure what to think, but I know that it should be important to consider all the facts.
Just from what i see in the video no chance this happend, it all went down much too fast!
He was just running becouse he wanted to avoid the control. No intention to shoot him at all.
LOL WHAT?
You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue what that man's intention was because you can't actually make any details of his facial expressions or his actual body language. Let me make it clear that both of those things are good indicators of what people are thinking or about to do.
To completely discount the events because 'it happened so fast' just so ignorance about just how quickly critical incidents go down. It looks like about five seconds right? Assuming that the report is true...it felt like a few minutes to that officer.
“You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming vehicles.
No car passing at this time of the event.
If he lied in this 3 occations i dont trus anything he says!
On February 17 2013 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote: Yeah well he stated the view to the suspect was blocked thats why he was assuming it was a trap still he could clearly see he was pulling a gun (contradiction 1), The Video shows the guy running full speed away how can you turn around while running full speed (contradicition 2). The third thing is if you are shot and lying on the floor you natually reach for the wound and are unable to follow orders so there were no additional reason to shoot another 2 to 3 bullets.
This is all just your personal opinion though. And before you send me another PM asking me if I'm a cop or if I'm being "employed by another organization" maybe you should consider that I'm just trying to maintain a level of reasonable discussion, keeping opinions separated from facts. We can call the people who produce the facts liars, but we can't look at the video and decide what exactly happened based on our flimsy perspective
On February 17 2013 07:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Guys, it doesn't really matter how likely a cop is to be killed on average. What matters is how likely the cop is to be killed in a given situation.
That's what matters when justifying the use of deadly force.
The only shot I disagree with is the one where the guy is running away. Shooting him in the back as a cop is meh.
On February 17 2013 05:16 FallDownMarigold wrote: I think the OP needs to post the factual analysis:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming, “Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’ waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying. Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
pronounced dead at 1:04 am.
Just for clarification that it was not a simple shooting of a guy running away with no other factors to consider. I'm not sure what to think, but I know that it should be important to consider all the facts.
Just from what i see in the video no chance this happend, it all went down much too fast!
He was just running becouse he wanted to avoid the control. No intention to shoot him at all.
LOL WHAT?
You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue what that man's intention was because you can't actually make any details of his facial expressions or his actual body language. Let me make it clear that both of those things are good indicators of what people are thinking or about to do.
To completely discount the events because 'it happened so fast' just so ignorance about just how quickly critical incidents go down. It looks like about five seconds right? Assuming that the report is true...it felt like a few minutes to that officer.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned his upper body toward Jove.
This isnt happening! you can clearly see that the guy startet running 1 second after cop leaves his car
As Jove gave chase, he saw Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him.
HE is running full speed no chance to do something like that.
“You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming vehicles.
No car passing at this time of the event.
If he lied in this 3 occations i dont trus anything he says!
also:
On February 17 2013 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote: Yeah well he stated the view to the suspect was blocked thats why he was assuming it was a trap still he could clearly see he was pulling a gun (contradiction 1), The Video shows the guy running full speed away how can you turn around while running full speed (contradicition 2). The third thing is if you are shot and lying on the floor you natually reach for the wound and are unable to follow orders so there were no additional reason to shoot another 2 to 3 bullets.
This is all just your personal opinion though. And before you send me another PM asking me if I'm a cop or if I'm being "employed by another organization" maybe you should consider that I'm just trying to maintain a level of reasonable discussion, keeping opinions separated from facts. We can call the people who produce the facts liars, but we can't look at the video and decide what exactly happened based on our flimsy perspective
Saying it is a fact that there is an opinion it was a good shooting is pretty disingenuous, especially when you are talking about the difference between opinion and fact. You are not keeping opinions separate from facts, but deliberately conflating the two. I mean, I could say that I think you're wrong, and that's a 100% objective indisputable, documented FACT, but mentioning that my opinion being what it is is a fact is of course a bad argument.
EPT
