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On February 17 2013 07:19 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 07:17 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 07:05 Jayme wrote:On February 17 2013 05:22 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 05:16 FallDownMarigold wrote:I think the OP needs to post the factual analysis:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of
traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around
Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth
from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing
on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side
spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them
on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front
passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who
was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they
were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front
waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round
from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas
fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the
curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas
screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also
hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on
his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his
shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me
see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming,
“Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right
shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his
commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to
pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas
rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’
waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove
ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying.
Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to
move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to
reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for
for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from
grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped
moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the
handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
pronounced dead at 1:04 am.
Just for clarification that it was not a simple shooting of a guy running away with no other factors to consider. I'm not sure what to think, but I know that it should be important to consider all the facts. Just from what i see in the video no chance this happend, it all went down much too fast! He was just running becouse he wanted to avoid the control. No intention to shoot him at all. LOL WHAT? You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue what that man's intention was because you can't actually make any details of his facial expressions or his actual body language. Let me make it clear that both of those things are good indicators of what people are thinking or about to do. To completely discount the events because 'it happened so fast' just so ignorance about just how quickly critical incidents go down. It looks like about five seconds right? Assuming that the report is true...it felt like a few minutes to that officer.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove.
This isnt happening! you can clearly see that the guy startet running 1 second after cop leaves his car
As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him.
HE is running full speed no chance to do something like that.
“You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles.
No car passing at this time of the event. If he lied in this 3 occations i dont trus anything he says! also: On February 17 2013 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Yeah well he stated the view to the suspect was blocked thats why he was assuming it was a trap still he could clearly see he was pulling a gun (contradiction 1), The Video shows the guy running full speed away how can you turn around while running full speed (contradicition 2). The third thing is if you are shot and lying on the floor you natually reach for the wound and are unable to follow orders so there were no additional reason to shoot another 2 to 3 bullets. This is all just your personal opinion though. And before you send me another PM asking me if I'm a cop or if I'm being "employed by another organization" maybe you should consider that I'm just trying to maintain a level of reasonable discussion, keeping opinions separated from facts. We can call the people who produce the facts liars, but we can't look at the video and decide what exactly happened based on our flimsy perspective
Yeah im just asking questions, I dont try to attack you, just looking into evidence wondering why you try to argue against facts.
Im reconsider if you are right and look deeper into the evidence, compare his arguing with the video try to find a conclusion who is right.
Yes my first impression was that there is something fishy going on so i wrote my first comment waiting to be disproved, but all you do is repeating "thats your opinion", but not a single word about the claimes i maid.
Well if you argue like this in harvard i dont see you coming far.
Have a nice day sir.
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On February 17 2013 07:26 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 07:19 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 17 2013 07:17 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 07:05 Jayme wrote:On February 17 2013 05:22 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 05:16 FallDownMarigold wrote:I think the OP needs to post the factual analysis:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of
traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around
Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth
from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing
on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side
spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them
on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front
passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who
was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they
were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front
waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round
from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas
fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the
curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas
screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also
hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on
his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his
shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me
see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming,
“Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right
shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his
commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to
pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas
rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’
waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove
ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying.
Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to
move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to
reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for
for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from
grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped
moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the
handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
pronounced dead at 1:04 am.
Just for clarification that it was not a simple shooting of a guy running away with no other factors to consider. I'm not sure what to think, but I know that it should be important to consider all the facts. Just from what i see in the video no chance this happend, it all went down much too fast! He was just running becouse he wanted to avoid the control. No intention to shoot him at all. LOL WHAT? You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue what that man's intention was because you can't actually make any details of his facial expressions or his actual body language. Let me make it clear that both of those things are good indicators of what people are thinking or about to do. To completely discount the events because 'it happened so fast' just so ignorance about just how quickly critical incidents go down. It looks like about five seconds right? Assuming that the report is true...it felt like a few minutes to that officer.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove.
This isnt happening! you can clearly see that the guy startet running 1 second after cop leaves his car
As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him.
HE is running full speed no chance to do something like that.
“You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles.
No car passing at this time of the event. If he lied in this 3 occations i dont trus anything he says! also: On February 17 2013 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Yeah well he stated the view to the suspect was blocked thats why he was assuming it was a trap still he could clearly see he was pulling a gun (contradiction 1), The Video shows the guy running full speed away how can you turn around while running full speed (contradicition 2). The third thing is if you are shot and lying on the floor you natually reach for the wound and are unable to follow orders so there were no additional reason to shoot another 2 to 3 bullets. This is all just your personal opinion though. And before you send me another PM asking me if I'm a cop or if I'm being "employed by another organization" maybe you should consider that I'm just trying to maintain a level of reasonable discussion, keeping opinions separated from facts. We can call the people who produce the facts liars, but we can't look at the video and decide what exactly happened based on our flimsy perspective Saying it is a fact that there is an opinion it was a good shooting is pretty disingenuous, especially when you are talking about the difference between opinion and fact. You are not keeping opinions separate from facts, but deliberately conflating the two. I mean, I could say that I think you're wrong, and that's a 100% objective indisputable, documented FACT, but mentioning that my opinion being what it is is a fact is of course a bad argument.
I don't follow you. What I am saying is that his judgement of the FACTUAL ANALYSIS is a personal opinion. He isn't refuting it with other evidence-based facts. He's looking at a video and forming an opinion that disagrees with the factual analysis. It's ok to call the ones who complied the factual analysis LIARS, but to absolutely disprove what it says sort of demands strong evidence rather than personal opinion
@chilling You specifically asked me for my occupation, to which I responded accurately. No need to rub in what I said as if to imply I was being elitist or something -- i wasn't. Cut it out. With regard to your claims -- that's just it, they are your OPINION/INTERPRETATION of the video. You are not qualified to view a video and decide absolutely what was or was not possible!
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On February 17 2013 07:30 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 07:26 HunterX11 wrote:On February 17 2013 07:19 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 17 2013 07:17 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 07:05 Jayme wrote:On February 17 2013 05:22 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 05:16 FallDownMarigold wrote:I think the OP needs to post the factual analysis:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of
traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around
Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth
from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing
on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side
spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them
on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front
passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who
was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they
were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front
waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round
from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas
fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the
curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas
screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also
hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on
his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his
shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me
see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming,
“Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right
shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his
commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to
pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas
rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’
waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove
ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying.
Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to
move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to
reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for
for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from
grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped
moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the
handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
pronounced dead at 1:04 am.
Just for clarification that it was not a simple shooting of a guy running away with no other factors to consider. I'm not sure what to think, but I know that it should be important to consider all the facts. Just from what i see in the video no chance this happend, it all went down much too fast! He was just running becouse he wanted to avoid the control. No intention to shoot him at all. LOL WHAT? You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue what that man's intention was because you can't actually make any details of his facial expressions or his actual body language. Let me make it clear that both of those things are good indicators of what people are thinking or about to do. To completely discount the events because 'it happened so fast' just so ignorance about just how quickly critical incidents go down. It looks like about five seconds right? Assuming that the report is true...it felt like a few minutes to that officer.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove.
This isnt happening! you can clearly see that the guy startet running 1 second after cop leaves his car
As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him.
HE is running full speed no chance to do something like that.
“You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles.
No car passing at this time of the event. If he lied in this 3 occations i dont trus anything he says! also: On February 17 2013 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Yeah well he stated the view to the suspect was blocked thats why he was assuming it was a trap still he could clearly see he was pulling a gun (contradiction 1), The Video shows the guy running full speed away how can you turn around while running full speed (contradicition 2). The third thing is if you are shot and lying on the floor you natually reach for the wound and are unable to follow orders so there were no additional reason to shoot another 2 to 3 bullets. This is all just your personal opinion though. And before you send me another PM asking me if I'm a cop or if I'm being "employed by another organization" maybe you should consider that I'm just trying to maintain a level of reasonable discussion, keeping opinions separated from facts. We can call the people who produce the facts liars, but we can't look at the video and decide what exactly happened based on our flimsy perspective Saying it is a fact that there is an opinion it was a good shooting is pretty disingenuous, especially when you are talking about the difference between opinion and fact. You are not keeping opinions separate from facts, but deliberately conflating the two. I mean, I could say that I think you're wrong, and that's a 100% objective indisputable, documented FACT, but mentioning that my opinion being what it is is a fact is of course a bad argument. I don't follow you. What I am saying is that his judgement of the FACTUAL ANALYSIS is a personal opinion. He isn't refuting it with other evidence-based facts. He's looking at a video and forming an opinion that disagrees with the factual analysis. It's ok to call the ones who complied the factual analysis LIARS, but to absolutely disprove what it says sort of demands strong evidence rather than personal opinion @chilling You specifically asked me for my occupation, to which I responded accurately. No need to rub in what I said as if to imply I was being elitist or something -- i wasn't. Cut it out
I'm pretty sure the family's lawyer, for example, has a different factual analysis.
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On February 17 2013 07:30 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 07:26 HunterX11 wrote:On February 17 2013 07:19 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 17 2013 07:17 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 07:05 Jayme wrote:On February 17 2013 05:22 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 05:16 FallDownMarigold wrote:I think the OP needs to post the factual analysis:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of
traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around
Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth
from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing
on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side
spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them
on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front
passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who
was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they
were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front
waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round
from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas
fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the
curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas
screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also
hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on
his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his
shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me
see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming,
“Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right
shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his
commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to
pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas
rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’
waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove
ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying.
Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to
move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to
reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for
for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from
grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped
moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the
handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
pronounced dead at 1:04 am.
Just for clarification that it was not a simple shooting of a guy running away with no other factors to consider. I'm not sure what to think, but I know that it should be important to consider all the facts. Just from what i see in the video no chance this happend, it all went down much too fast! He was just running becouse he wanted to avoid the control. No intention to shoot him at all. LOL WHAT? You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue what that man's intention was because you can't actually make any details of his facial expressions or his actual body language. Let me make it clear that both of those things are good indicators of what people are thinking or about to do. To completely discount the events because 'it happened so fast' just so ignorance about just how quickly critical incidents go down. It looks like about five seconds right? Assuming that the report is true...it felt like a few minutes to that officer.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove.
This isnt happening! you can clearly see that the guy startet running 1 second after cop leaves his car
As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him.
HE is running full speed no chance to do something like that.
“You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles.
No car passing at this time of the event. If he lied in this 3 occations i dont trus anything he says! also: On February 17 2013 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Yeah well he stated the view to the suspect was blocked thats why he was assuming it was a trap still he could clearly see he was pulling a gun (contradiction 1), The Video shows the guy running full speed away how can you turn around while running full speed (contradicition 2). The third thing is if you are shot and lying on the floor you natually reach for the wound and are unable to follow orders so there were no additional reason to shoot another 2 to 3 bullets. This is all just your personal opinion though. And before you send me another PM asking me if I'm a cop or if I'm being "employed by another organization" maybe you should consider that I'm just trying to maintain a level of reasonable discussion, keeping opinions separated from facts. We can call the people who produce the facts liars, but we can't look at the video and decide what exactly happened based on our flimsy perspective Saying it is a fact that there is an opinion it was a good shooting is pretty disingenuous, especially when you are talking about the difference between opinion and fact. You are not keeping opinions separate from facts, but deliberately conflating the two. I mean, I could say that I think you're wrong, and that's a 100% objective indisputable, documented FACT, but mentioning that my opinion being what it is is a fact is of course a bad argument. I don't follow you. What I am saying is that his judgement of the FACTUAL ANALYSIS is a personal opinion. He isn't refuting it with other evidence-based facts. He's looking at a video and forming an opinion that disagrees with the factual analysis. It's ok to call the ones who complied the factual analysis LIARS, but to absolutely disprove what it says sort of demands strong evidence rather than personal opinion @chilling You specifically asked me for my occupation, to which I responded accurately. No need to rub in what I said as if to imply I was being elitist or something -- i wasn't. Cut it out
Man you contradict yourself so hard its already getting sad.
I asked a YES or NO question, and you tryed to look smart by saying you are going to harvard, that came out so fast i was suprised.
You never looked into any facts just claimed things out of thin air, now you try to presume the same goes for me, but thats actually not true.
Also a PM is a PRIVATE Massage you dragged that into here to let me look stupid or over interrested.
All you do is dragging attention away from the actual problem and i really dont want that!
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On February 17 2013 07:33 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 07:30 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 17 2013 07:26 HunterX11 wrote:On February 17 2013 07:19 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 17 2013 07:17 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 07:05 Jayme wrote:On February 17 2013 05:22 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 05:16 FallDownMarigold wrote:I think the OP needs to post the factual analysis:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of
traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around
Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth
from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing
on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side
spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them
on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front
passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who
was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they
were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front
waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round
from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas
fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the
curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas
screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also
hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on
his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his
shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me
see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming,
“Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right
shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his
commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to
pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas
rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’
waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove
ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying.
Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to
move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to
reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for
for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from
grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped
moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the
handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
pronounced dead at 1:04 am.
Just for clarification that it was not a simple shooting of a guy running away with no other factors to consider. I'm not sure what to think, but I know that it should be important to consider all the facts. Just from what i see in the video no chance this happend, it all went down much too fast! He was just running becouse he wanted to avoid the control. No intention to shoot him at all. LOL WHAT? You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue what that man's intention was because you can't actually make any details of his facial expressions or his actual body language. Let me make it clear that both of those things are good indicators of what people are thinking or about to do. To completely discount the events because 'it happened so fast' just so ignorance about just how quickly critical incidents go down. It looks like about five seconds right? Assuming that the report is true...it felt like a few minutes to that officer.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove.
This isnt happening! you can clearly see that the guy startet running 1 second after cop leaves his car
As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him.
HE is running full speed no chance to do something like that.
“You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles.
No car passing at this time of the event. If he lied in this 3 occations i dont trus anything he says! also: On February 17 2013 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Yeah well he stated the view to the suspect was blocked thats why he was assuming it was a trap still he could clearly see he was pulling a gun (contradiction 1), The Video shows the guy running full speed away how can you turn around while running full speed (contradicition 2). The third thing is if you are shot and lying on the floor you natually reach for the wound and are unable to follow orders so there were no additional reason to shoot another 2 to 3 bullets. This is all just your personal opinion though. And before you send me another PM asking me if I'm a cop or if I'm being "employed by another organization" maybe you should consider that I'm just trying to maintain a level of reasonable discussion, keeping opinions separated from facts. We can call the people who produce the facts liars, but we can't look at the video and decide what exactly happened based on our flimsy perspective Saying it is a fact that there is an opinion it was a good shooting is pretty disingenuous, especially when you are talking about the difference between opinion and fact. You are not keeping opinions separate from facts, but deliberately conflating the two. I mean, I could say that I think you're wrong, and that's a 100% objective indisputable, documented FACT, but mentioning that my opinion being what it is is a fact is of course a bad argument. I don't follow you. What I am saying is that his judgement of the FACTUAL ANALYSIS is a personal opinion. He isn't refuting it with other evidence-based facts. He's looking at a video and forming an opinion that disagrees with the factual analysis. It's ok to call the ones who complied the factual analysis LIARS, but to absolutely disprove what it says sort of demands strong evidence rather than personal opinion @chilling You specifically asked me for my occupation, to which I responded accurately. No need to rub in what I said as if to imply I was being elitist or something -- i wasn't. Cut it out I'm pretty sure the family's lawyer, for example, has a different factual analysis.
I would love to read it and form a new opinion on the matter. Please post it if it's available! I really don't have an agenda here.
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On February 17 2013 07:33 Chilling5pr33 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 07:30 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 17 2013 07:26 HunterX11 wrote:On February 17 2013 07:19 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 17 2013 07:17 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 07:05 Jayme wrote:On February 17 2013 05:22 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 17 2013 05:16 FallDownMarigold wrote:I think the OP needs to post the factual analysis:
On October 10, 2010, at 12:23 am., LASD Deputy Julio Jove was traveling north on Long Beach Boulevard when he observed Ernie Ray Campos walking in the northbound lanes of
traffic showing gang signs at passing cars. Several vehicles had to brake and swerve around
Campos to avoid hitting him. At the same time, Eduardo Villa, Jr. was running back and forth
from the east sidewalk to the middle of the street. Jove also observed Johnathan Cuevas standing
on the east sidewalk near both men. Jove pulled over to the east curb and used his driver side
spotlight to illuminate the men. Campos immediately raised his hands in the air and placed them
on the hood of the police car. As Jove opened his driver’s door, Villa walked to the front
passenger door. It appeared to Jove that Villa was attempting to block his View of Cuevas who
was standing behind him on the sidewalk. Based on their unusual behavior, Jove believed they
were setting him up for an ambush. Jove then saw Cuevas pull a handgun from his front
waistband. As Jove jumped out of the police car, Cuevas Walked southbound on the sidewalk with his back to the deputy.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove. Fearing that Cuevas was about to shoot him, Jove fired one round
from his service Weapon. Cuevas began running southbound. As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him. Jove ñred another round at Cuevas
fearing that he was still trying to shoot him. Cuevas ran a short distance before falling to the
curb just north of the northeast corner of Josephine Street and Long Beach Boulevard. Cuevas
screamed, “You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles. The drivers were honking their horns at him as he stood in the street. He could also
hear Campos and Villa yelling and cursing at him back at the police car. Cuevas was lying on
his stomach with his hands beneath his body at his waistband. He was aggressively moving his
shoulders from side to side. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas to, “Let me see your hands, let me
see your handsl” Cuevas did not comply and continued to move his body While screaming,
“Fuck you! Fuck you! You fucking shot me, you fucking shot rnel”
Cuevas began “messing with his waistband” then rolled toward his left shoulder. His right
shoulder and knee came off the ground. Cuevas was looking directly at Jove while ignoring his
commands to show his hands. Jove believed that Cuevas was attempting to roll over in order to
pull the gun from beneath his body and shoot him. He fired a third round at Cuevas. Cuevas
rolled onto his back and put his hands above his head. Jove saw the gun falling out of Cuevas’
waistband.l Cuevas arched his back While cursing at Jove and complaining of pain. Jove
ordered Cuevas to stop moving several times before it appeared to Jove that he was complying.
Jove turned his attention to Campos and Villa and ordered them to their knees. Cuevas began to
move again and his hands lowered toward his waistband. Jove repeatedly ordered Cuevas not to
reach for the gun. Cuevas ignored the commands and continued to reach for the gun. In fear for
for his life, Jove tired two to three rounds from his service weapon to prevent Cuevas from
grabbing the gun. He did not believe he struck Cuevas until the last round when
Cuevas said, “Alright already, alright,” and put his hands back above his head. Cuevas stopped
moving but continued to yell profanities at Jove. A responding deputy arrived and recovered the
handgun from Cuevas’ waistband. Cuevas was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was
pronounced dead at 1:04 am.
Just for clarification that it was not a simple shooting of a guy running away with no other factors to consider. I'm not sure what to think, but I know that it should be important to consider all the facts. Just from what i see in the video no chance this happend, it all went down much too fast! He was just running becouse he wanted to avoid the control. No intention to shoot him at all. LOL WHAT? You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue what that man's intention was because you can't actually make any details of his facial expressions or his actual body language. Let me make it clear that both of those things are good indicators of what people are thinking or about to do. To completely discount the events because 'it happened so fast' just so ignorance about just how quickly critical incidents go down. It looks like about five seconds right? Assuming that the report is true...it felt like a few minutes to that officer.
Jove yelled to Cuevas, “Let me see your hands! Let me see your handsl” Cuevas quickly turned
his upper body toward Jove.
This isnt happening! you can clearly see that the guy startet running 1 second after cop leaves his car
As Jove gave chase, he saw
Cuevas turn once more and blade his body toward him.
HE is running full speed no chance to do something like that.
“You fucking shot mel” Jove ran up to Cuevas and stood in the number two lane of
traffic on Long Beach Boulevard. He was momentarily blinded by the headlights of oncoming
vehicles.
No car passing at this time of the event. If he lied in this 3 occations i dont trus anything he says! also: On February 17 2013 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Yeah well he stated the view to the suspect was blocked thats why he was assuming it was a trap still he could clearly see he was pulling a gun (contradiction 1), The Video shows the guy running full speed away how can you turn around while running full speed (contradicition 2). The third thing is if you are shot and lying on the floor you natually reach for the wound and are unable to follow orders so there were no additional reason to shoot another 2 to 3 bullets. This is all just your personal opinion though. And before you send me another PM asking me if I'm a cop or if I'm being "employed by another organization" maybe you should consider that I'm just trying to maintain a level of reasonable discussion, keeping opinions separated from facts. We can call the people who produce the facts liars, but we can't look at the video and decide what exactly happened based on our flimsy perspective Saying it is a fact that there is an opinion it was a good shooting is pretty disingenuous, especially when you are talking about the difference between opinion and fact. You are not keeping opinions separate from facts, but deliberately conflating the two. I mean, I could say that I think you're wrong, and that's a 100% objective indisputable, documented FACT, but mentioning that my opinion being what it is is a fact is of course a bad argument. I don't follow you. What I am saying is that his judgement of the FACTUAL ANALYSIS is a personal opinion. He isn't refuting it with other evidence-based facts. He's looking at a video and forming an opinion that disagrees with the factual analysis. It's ok to call the ones who complied the factual analysis LIARS, but to absolutely disprove what it says sort of demands strong evidence rather than personal opinion @chilling You specifically asked me for my occupation, to which I responded accurately. No need to rub in what I said as if to imply I was being elitist or something -- i wasn't. Cut it out Man you contradict yourself so hard its already getting sad.
It would be more useful to explain what the contradictions are so that I can attempt to clarify them. It's not very useful to say something vaguely and then explain that it's sad. That doesn't really help much -- in fact it actually comes off as nothing more than name-calling.
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On February 17 2013 01:11 Silvanel wrote:
The saddest thing is that some people are already brainwashed enough to justify this. In most countries that cop would get life in prison (or 20-25 years minimum).
The funniest thing is that everyone in this thread thinks that the world is brainwashed into thinking this is a good thing, yet almost nobody has rushed to this officer's defense. How does it even make sense to claim people are brainwashed when the vast majority is agreeing with you?
Who's brainwashed? If anything, it is you. The media's selective reporting of the 0.01% of cop incidents that go badly or involve cops that should be fired or imprisoned makes the entire country look down upon its own police force, when in reality, most of the cops are honest people.
Yes, I understand the reasons (capitalism). People don't like stories about cops risking their own life or dying to save people; stories about cops breaking the law are probably the best selling concept besides celebrity affairs.
The truth is that there are hundreds of thousands of cops in this country, and only one of them has to fuck up or be fucked up and the entire country will shit all over cops everywhere. It's stupid and people who buy into it are even stupider.
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How is it that Deputy Jove's statement is automatically included as part of the "factual analysis"?
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Good question Warlock. Someone who is familiar with this process could probably provide the answer. Perhaps it is standard procedure? Perhaps it is an example of bad report making? I'm not really sure, but that's a good point to raise in my opinion
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On February 17 2013 07:40 Warlock40 wrote:
How is it that Deputy Jove's statement is automatically included as part of the "factual analysis"?
Witness statements are evidence. It doesn't mean that statements are assumed factually correct.
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What do the two friends of the shot guy claimed, where are theire statements i would love to see them.
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Actions like this explain why people like Dorner go on his rampage and why a growing number of people view police as legalized gangs. In my state, I can shoot someone and claim self-defense if they break into my house, but not if they are on my property or even if they are damaging my property. I don't understand why anyone can claim self-defense and be found not-guilty if the victim did not possess a weapon of any kind and was running away.
I would state I hope the victim's family sues but even in that case if they are successful that means the California taxpayers are the ones being punished.
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On February 17 2013 07:48 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
What do the two friends of the shot guy claimed, where are theire statements i would love to see them.
In the same report from which the factual analysis comes..
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-PsnQUvThWKaU1wVkRSWGlyY3c/edit
The one we've been discussing.
BTW I'm still open to attempting to clarify all my contradictions. I just need for you to explain what they are and then I'll be happy to sort things out
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On February 17 2013 07:48 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
What do the two friends of the shot guy claimed, where are theire statements i would love to see them.
Based on the statement of his friends, it sounds like the first four shots were entirely justified, and the only ones in question were the two where he was bleeding and on the ground (but still had a gun within reach).
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On February 17 2013 07:50 Ldawg wrote:
Actions like this explain why people like Dorner go on his rampage and why a growing number of people view police as legalized gangs. In my state, I can shoot someone and claim self-defense if they break into my house, but not if they are on my property or even if they are damaging my property. I don't understand why anyone can claim self-defense and be found not-guilty if the victim did not possess a weapon of any kind and was running away.
I would state I hope the victim's family sues but even in that case if they are successful that means the California taxpayers are the ones being punished.
It's actually the biggest point in the whole case.
That guy was fleeing, not attacking. There's a slight difference, like 180°. He did not dive into cover. He ran full steam ahead, turning his back on the cop - completely exposed. That's not a threat.
I agree, as a cop, i would not chase him, because he might pull a gun on me. But killing him in that case is not justified, just because there could be danger if i chase him.
In other countries, as a cop, you need to protect your life. If my life is in danger when i chase someone, i just don't chase him alone. There's no need to kill a maybe innocent or "small criminal" just because he "might do something if i do something stupid, like chasing someone who i think could have a gun".
In every other country than the US, that guy would go to jail. And that would be justified.
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On February 17 2013 07:58 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 07:48 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
What do the two friends of the shot guy claimed, where are theire statements i would love to see them. Based on the statement of his friends, it sounds like the first four shots were entirely justified, and the only ones in question were the two where he was bleeding and on the ground (but still had a gun within reach).
How you came to that conclusion based on the statements is beyond me.
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On February 17 2013 08:00 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 07:58 dcemuser wrote:On February 17 2013 07:48 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
What do the two friends of the shot guy claimed, where are theire statements i would love to see them. Based on the statement of his friends, it sounds like the first four shots were entirely justified, and the only ones in question were the two where he was bleeding and on the ground (but still had a gun within reach). How you came to that conclusion based on the statements is beyond me.
Okay, easy - guy is running with a loaded gun, so you take 2 shots at him when he keeps running (because he could easily turn and kill you). The guy goes down, and then says (quoted from the friend) "Alright, alright, I got a gun, I got a gun", which is the dumbest thing you could say since that implies intent, and the cop shoots him once more since he was moving and could have been reaching for it while saying that.
The questionable shots are the ones where he 'looks at them and then shoots again'.
Regardless of anything though, the media's protrayal of the situation is a joke. In reality, two gang members put their hands on a police car and block the officer's view partially from a third gang member who draws out a loaded gun. Force is ENTIRELY justified for the first shots.
The only question at all is whether the continued shots were justified or the result of rage/anger/fear on the officer's part.
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On February 17 2013 08:00 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 07:58 dcemuser wrote:On February 17 2013 07:48 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
What do the two friends of the shot guy claimed, where are theire statements i would love to see them. Based on the statement of his friends, it sounds like the first four shots were entirely justified, and the only ones in question were the two where he was bleeding and on the ground (but still had a gun within reach). How you came to that conclusion based on the statements is beyond me.
I agree it seemes to me that he got asked just the right questions to let it still look as it could have been justified.
On February 17 2013 08:05 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 08:00 hinnolinn wrote:On February 17 2013 07:58 dcemuser wrote:On February 17 2013 07:48 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
What do the two friends of the shot guy claimed, where are theire statements i would love to see them. Based on the statement of his friends, it sounds like the first four shots were entirely justified, and the only ones in question were the two where he was bleeding and on the ground (but still had a gun within reach). How you came to that conclusion based on the statements is beyond me. Okay, easy - guy is running with a loaded gun, so you take 2 shots at him when he keeps running (because he could easily turn and kill you). The guy goes down, and then says (quoted from the friend) "Alright, alright, I got a gun, I got a gun", which is the dumbest thing you could say since that implies intent, and the cop shoots him once more since he was moving and could have been reaching for it while saying that. The questionable shots are the ones where he 'looks at them and then shoots again'.
I thought its theoretical legal to carry a loaded gun?
So its legal but you always can get shot anytime by any police man?
That makes no sence for me
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On February 17 2013 08:05 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 08:00 hinnolinn wrote:On February 17 2013 07:58 dcemuser wrote:On February 17 2013 07:48 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
What do the two friends of the shot guy claimed, where are theire statements i would love to see them. Based on the statement of his friends, it sounds like the first four shots were entirely justified, and the only ones in question were the two where he was bleeding and on the ground (but still had a gun within reach). How you came to that conclusion based on the statements is beyond me. Okay, easy - guy is running with a loaded gun, so you take 2 shots at him when he keeps running (because he could easily turn and kill you). The guy goes down, and then says (quoted from the friend) "Alright, alright, I got a gun, I got a gun", which is the dumbest thing you could say since that implies intent, and the cop shoots him once more since he was moving and could have been reaching for it while saying that. The questionable shots are the ones where he 'looks at them and then shoots again'.
That assumes that the officer was telling the truth that he saw a gun before the man took off running. The friend's statement does not agree with that, but it doesn't disagree either. The statement says he was looking at the deputy and did not see anything. The statement does seem to confirm that after being shot, the man on the ground said he had a gun.
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On February 17 2013 08:05 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 08:00 hinnolinn wrote:On February 17 2013 07:58 dcemuser wrote:On February 17 2013 07:48 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
What do the two friends of the shot guy claimed, where are theire statements i would love to see them. Based on the statement of his friends, it sounds like the first four shots were entirely justified, and the only ones in question were the two where he was bleeding and on the ground (but still had a gun within reach). How you came to that conclusion based on the statements is beyond me. Okay, easy - guy is running with a loaded gun, so you take 2 shots at him when he keeps running (because he could easily turn and kill you). The guy goes down, and then says (quoted from the friend) "Alright, alright, I got a gun, I got a gun", which is the dumbest thing you could say since that implies intent, and the cop shoots him once more since he was moving and could have been reaching for it while saying that. The questionable shots are the ones where he 'looks at them and then shoots again'.
If he admits that he has a gun, the intention to kill the cop is kinda gone, isn't it? How stupid would it be to tell him that you're going to kill him? That sounds like him admitting that he has a gun, to prevent getting shot even more.
Also, about the "ambush-thing", he turns his frikkin back on the other two guys, tell me how he knew that there was no danger from these two? Because based on the video and his statement, i kinda can't, or tells me, that he knew that there was no threat.
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EPT
