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i dislike giving bad comments about casters
it s not that they just give wrong predictions (evryone does form time to time) but the way they describe strategies on certain maps or buildorders is just terrible
mybe it s because today we are used to the high quality casting of other events such as gsl / ipl / iem and so on.
when there is a pvt in non PL games and terran starts with gas first usually non PL casters talk about the posibility of banshe or helion drops.
when there is a pvt in PL and terran opens with gas first the commentators will discuss about BW carear of some Player their record the haircut the colour of stuff i dont care and so on
even when ist getting better , they still have a long way to go
and i somehow doubt that snm will ever reach the lvl of quality we are used from other casters. (thou shall not mix unit names in a casting , thou shall not call the guy who will be dead meat in 30 seconds winner of the game ! and so on)
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I stick to the Korean casts these days, Whiplash is ok but SNM just isn't caster material.
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On January 21 2013 11:47 nmetasch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 11:46 Son of Gnome wrote:
Whiplash is cool, but snm... yeah.... I personally like whiplash more as well, but I feel like snm is growing a lot. The only thing I really don't like about his casting is that he can't handle whiplashes jokes and kinda blows him off and doesn't play along.
Agreed. I enjoy the casts alot, it just seems that every time whiplash (the foreigner, right?) tries to make a joke, snm has no qualms about blowing him off, like he lacks a sense of humor, or something. I always attributed to their cultural differences, such as when someone here in Georgia (I'm originally from Cuba) tells me to 'cut off/on' the lights. But, the GSL casters do not seem to have a problem with it.
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Its not that they are especially bad, It's just that they could've gotten someone like apollo to do it which would've been far far better imo (Slight fanboyism).
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Im guessing they are not actually ingame them selfs instead are just having to rely on what the obs shows them wich is a big diffrence if you are comparing them to casters on GSL / IPL / DH / IEM wich always have personal access to all the observer tabs.
I hope they keep improving, i currently dont listen to them to much but if they keep at it i probably will at some point.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 21 2013 22:45 Mooneyes wrote:
Im guessing they are not actually ingame them selfs instead are just having to rely on what the obs shows them wich is a big diffrence if you are comparing them to casters on GSL / IPL / DH / IEM wich always have personal access to all the observer tabs.
I hope they keep improving, i currently dont listen to them to much but if they keep at it i probably will at some point.
That's what they have, like old BW casts, except that they have access to a stream without the korean commentary.
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SNM works better as a John figure, just doing translations when he's needed and going backstage to help out instead (it makes sense, because foreigner players participating will have a hard time without translators). He has barely any knowledge of the game, makes for most of the awkwardness in the casts, and does not sound that good live.
Let Whiplash work with someone else, like an actual analysis caster.
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Whiplash is doing a nice job in my opinion, snm is at about the same level of casting as Khaldor is to me. Like the guy but just can´t listen to him for long.
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The white guy needs to stop but the Korean commentator is trying. I don't really mind the casting, just appreciate the game.
Also, a note for all casters. YOU DONT HAVE TO ANALYZE IN DEPTH. Just go over the game, play-by-play, and do some basic analyzing like upgrades, army sizes, engagements and macro. Stop trying to do a daily live.
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"snm" is probably the worst sc2 caster in history. His lisp/speech impediment/mental disability or whatever the hell it is, is just entirely TOO much. It's insane. Let's be honest here, he's horrible, has no idea what he is talking about, and constantly fights with tripping over his own words. He has zero command over the English language and it makes my ears bleed to hear him try to talk.
User was temp banned for this post.
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ON TOP OF DAT i dislike it.
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On January 22 2013 00:53 Kluey wrote:
Also, a note for all casters. YOU DONT HAVE TO ANALYZE IN DEPTH. Just go over the game, play-by-play, and do some basic analyzing like upgrades, army sizes, engagements and macro. Stop trying to do a daily live.
Although I agree and prefer that style of casting (and do it myself), the community is pretty split on the issue. Lots of people will say "I can see what's going on, give me analysis" instead. =/
Can't please everyone!
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They're not bad, they've had some funny moments so i must say overall i enjoy them. If you excuse some odd calls from SNM then it's nice to listen to, I get exited when they get exited and they keep me engaged and I enjoy SNMs insight on his progamers knowledge.
See.. I dont play this game.. proleague to me is more casual. Sit back and have a beer type of entertainment. It's Bo1 afterall.. So no analytics is actually refreshing to me, no need to think or take anything seriously it's just a jolly time =)
However when I heard SNM bash sc2 I totally just though how unprofessional that was. I don't care what vulture micro would have been like in this situation or how drops in BW were more exiting. people tuned in to watch sc2 not to listen to something I hear too often on Tl.
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On January 22 2013 00:53 JackReacher wrote:
"snm" is probably the worst sc2 caster in history. His lisp/speech impediment/mental disability or whatever the hell it is, is just entirely TOO much. It's insane. Let's be honest here, he's horrible, has no idea what he is talking about, and constantly fights with tripping over his own words. He has zero command over the English language and it makes my ears bleed to hear him try to talk.
There are french casters who are A LOT worse. But SNM has indeed a lot of work to do in order to become a proper proleague caster.
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Australia528 Posts
On January 22 2013 01:04 MarkCJ wrote:
They're not bad, they've had some funny moments so i must say overall i enjoy them. If you excuse some odd calls from SNM then it's nice to listen to, I get exited when they get exited and they keep me engaged and I enjoy SNMs insight on his progamers knowledge.
See.. I dont play this game.. proleague to me is more casual. Sit back and have a beer type of entertainment. It's Bo1 afterall.. So no analytics is actually refreshing to me, no need to think or take anything seriously it's just a jolly time =)
However when I heard SNM bash sc2 I totally just though how unprofessional that was. I don't care what vulture micro would have been like in this situation or how drops in BW were more exiting. people tuned in to watch sc2 not to listen to something I hear too often on Tl.
Did SNM actually bash sc2 on proleague? Wow, then he's stupider than I thought. I saw him bash sc2 quite often on TL and in stream chats but on a televised show? I don't know why he even took the job if he thinks sc2 is so inferior to BW.
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On January 22 2013 01:09 storywriter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 01:04 MarkCJ wrote:
They're not bad, they've had some funny moments so i must say overall i enjoy them. If you excuse some odd calls from SNM then it's nice to listen to, I get exited when they get exited and they keep me engaged and I enjoy SNMs insight on his progamers knowledge.
See.. I dont play this game.. proleague to me is more casual. Sit back and have a beer type of entertainment. It's Bo1 afterall.. So no analytics is actually refreshing to me, no need to think or take anything seriously it's just a jolly time =)
However when I heard SNM bash sc2 I totally just though how unprofessional that was. I don't care what vulture micro would have been like in this situation or how drops in BW were more exiting. people tuned in to watch sc2 not to listen to something I hear too often on Tl. Did SNM actually bash sc2 on proleague? Wow, then he's stupider than I thought. I saw him bash sc2 quite often on TL and in stream chats but on a televised show? I don't know why he even took the job if he thinks sc2 is so inferior to BW.
well I say bash on sc2.. from my experience he keeps on reminiscing on and on about how in BW it would have been better..to me it feels like he kinda indirectly bashes sc2 by talking about how BW so great on a bloody sc2 cast! I feel like he's forced at gunpoint to cast sc2 sometimes lol
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To those of you saying that they could have got better casters, yes probably, infact Kaelaris said he was asked(probably others as well) but for various reasons I guess they didn't want to and they ended up with SNM and Whiplash.
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I've tuned in to quite a few games this season and here's what I've got to say about the English casting duo:
- It's not that bad. Honestly, I don't think it's as bad as some people say it is. I've heard much worse (English) amateur/semi-professional casting for BW/SC2 for all these years and I think the SNM+Whiplash duo is better than a whole lot of them.
- More teamwork, please! One thing that stands out as a major area of improvement is teamwork. Instead of building on each other's points, the SNM+Whiplash casting often wanders in two different directions as each caster tries to carry his own train of thought with very little regards to the other. Rookie mistake? Maybe. The beauty of the original Korean casting team (@ OGN) is that with over a decade of experience, they have amazing teamwork and build up the excitement piece by piece until the GG.
Let me give you a Mario Strikers (Wii) example: the original OGN team tries to score by doing connecting a bunch of sick passes to build up the ball charge then scores with the biggest one-timer, GG. The SNM+Whiplash duo is kind of like Toad and Hammer Bro trying to score individually with their skill/charge shots. The amazing string of passes from the OGN team manages to avoid the tackles (hate and criticism) from the defending team (the "eSports fans") and when the slow-mo for the big shot is engaged, everyone gets absorbed into the moment before the play culminates in an epic goal. On the other side, the newbie Toad trying to solo through the defenders gets crushed (by the defending team / eSports fans) into the electric fence, ball is loose, Hammer Bro picks it up, right away starts charging for the hammer shot, before get demolished in the face by the defending team again.
Was that confusing? Point: needs better teamwork!
- Less stating the obvious, needs more depth and breadth. This is a fairly general statement and it comes with a bunch of exceptions and things but the point is, casters need to offer something that the viewers can't get on his/her own. It can be anything from past match statistics to player-specific jokes as long as it's based on something factual. We don't want to know about what you (caster) did on ladder two weeks ago, we want to know why the player is doing an unusual build in this specific map and what consequences it may lead to. It's not asking for mind-reading capabilities, it's asking for a well-constructed "educated guess" on the situation. Saying "oh he's doing immortal-sentry all-in again, it's a powerful build when done right, opponent is in big trouble" and "this immortal-sentry may work better on this map due to x and y and on top of that, the opponent is totally not expecting it as you can see from his build, so in z minutes we can expect him to be completely shocked" seems similar, but the viewer gets more satisfaction from that extra bit of expert information.
- Don't get excited before we do. We, the self-entitled viewers, want to be excited. We don't care if you are. It's the reality and it's your job so it's up to you (the casters) to make up for it. Like I said above, you need teamwork to build up excitement. Pass on the analysis back and forth, add and pad on the chain of thought, and don't be afraid to sound like a crazy dog if the situation calls for it. Even after a big main army battle and the seconds before the inevitable GG, float our hopes up there with stuff like "we can almost feel his despair as he gathers his remaining armies, hoping for a miracle" instead of "and the supply difference is 170 to 60 as we wait for him to GG out".
- Respect both old BW-veterans and newcomers to SC2. It's okay and maybe even beneficial to reference BW once in a while - what's wrong with comparing the current state of the game with its roots? I think it's good for all viewers to know stuff like how a player's specific style evolved since his BW days, or how he adapted his style with the new/changed unit dynamics. One thing I have to say here though, is that you shouldn't use BW references if you aren't sure about is details. It makes us (who actually know a little more than you do about certain aspects) disgusted.
There was one game where Crazy (BW: Crazy-Hydra) was making a ton of lings, and you blabbed on for the last ~10 minutes of the game how this style is like the Crazy Zerg style from BW where you pump lings non-stop and toss them at the enemy until they get overwhelmed. Well, that's a small part of the actual strategy, and you missed the core point of it. The Crazy Zerg style indeed makes a lot of lings - but for a specific purpose. In BW ZvT, transitioning from Lair tech to Hive tech can be done in various ways - but commonly the zerg player morphs a handful of lurkers to hold ramps, occupy key map positions, and maybe even try drop plays. The Crazy Zerg strategy skips that. While microing the heart out of the mutalisk stack and keeping Terran player disjointed, the Zerg player pumps lings and immediately techs to Hive with no other gas expenses (maybe except ground unit defence upgrades). The point of Crazy Zerg is to reach Hive tech very fast and with lots of gas (even on 2 or 3 gas situations) so that once you reach Hive, you can immediately produce ultralisks (skip defilers because they are for pussies) and immediately overpower the Terran player. So yes, lots of lings are sacrificed, but the point is to reach Hive and make fast ultralisks. Casting time is short and the game is intense, so I understand that you can't explain all this in detail even if you knew it. However, I got sick of hearing "oh this is like Crazy Zerg from BW" "in BW there is this Crazy Zerg style where you pump lings" "Crazy about to win with Crazy Zerg style from BW" "Crazy, using Crazy Zerg style from BW, takes the set for KT" etc. A 10-second context information like "this is similar to Crazy Zerg from BW - but instead of going fast Hive + ultralisks like in BW Crazy Zerg, [in this game of SC2 right now] he's just going to try to finish his opponent with tons of zerglings!" would have got the job done properly.
- Most of all, keep the enthusiasm up! I've written huge blocks of text above because I genuinely want to raise the English casting level up a few notches so that the viewers (including myself) can have a better experience. Thanks for the efforts and GLHF!
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Some things I think Whiplash and SNM need to improve are
1) When a player does something that they don't agree with they often call it a "mistake" and skip over the reasoning why its happening - for instance in the final match HerO v TY (I think) the Vikings were in many ways forced out of position by HerO, and TY trying to stutter step his bioball + build reinforcements meant he was slow to move over the vikings and also had he moved the vikings without the support of his core army he would have ran the risk of having them picked of by stalkers on the way etc. Calling things an out right mistake often hurts the players and makes viewers think that players are incompetent which is rarely the case.
2) The casters seem to lack synergy at this stage its to be expected that they wouldn't be cutting one another out/ pointing out the others mistake in a likely upsetting manner (in comparison to maybe making a joke or saying I think what you mean to say is xyz)
3)Also if SNM really is set on pursuing a career in casting he may want to look into having a chat with a speech therapist or getting some lessons on broadcasting vocalizing/breathing that could reduce the noticeable issues that he is having
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If you need to see a fucking speech therapist, a job in casting is the last thing you should consider. I'm all for personal betterment and overcoming obstacles, but not at the expense of the viewers and the quality of the product produced by an entire industry. SC2 as a whole should not suffer just because one person wants to get over his fucking speech impediment. There is such a thing as too much tolerance, despite what political-correctness-philes would have you believe. Get this guy away from the microphone ASAP, for the love of all that is holy.
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EPT
