US Politics Mega-thread - Page 986
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 10 2014 15:54 Danglars wrote: Clearly, the free market supporters would have to extract another mighty concession from the controlled markets crowd. Maybe "inequality" or "social" followed by any number of words. All in the interests of furthering the discussion of course. Because you know you can quantify inequality, I can give you various graph right now. And we can discuss around this empirical evidence. Incentive on the other hand... And yes, we can ban social, I hate that word that now rhyme with charity. | ||
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
from a philosophy perspective im of the position that human understanding of reasons is a distinct faculty of reasoning in itself. this is not to say they are entirely fictitious, but each 'perceiving' of a reason in others as well as any third person account of yourself involves invoking your own faculty of reasoning and then is projected into an agent. some sort of co-evolution mechanism of reasoning and "understanding others' reasons". thus we tend to have very natural and smooth conceptions of how society adn the world works that are made up of people with reasons in their heads, but the reality can be much more complicated. various leftist 'visionary' projects suffer from thsi problem a great deal, where you imagine a world from the top down governed by reasons, but that kind of world only exists in imagination. of course, same applies to concepts like incentive. it's easy to conceive or be persuaded by a simplistic conception based on thsi sort of a 'rationalistic' model, but this suggestiveness is in itself a danger to us. it leads to acceptance of simplsitic models blindly. a simple motto on this issue may be, reasons are causes, but there is no guarantee of completeness of causes from one true reason based cause. tldr is basically econ 101 'incentivezzz omg you are dumb' stuff is really bad. but you can surely consider incentives as a hugely important aspect of economic thinking as an aside, neoclassical economics is the high fortress of rationalistic economics, built up from a series of 'what we think people do' and then mathematicized. usually this kind of 'science' would lead to catastrophically bad results. it's pretty primitive as far as scientific methodology goes. think of something like phlogiston theory or 'heat fluids' as an analogy in physics. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
You're talking about another matter entirely, and a pretty small matter actually (incentive by itself is POOR even from a pure theorical standpoint - like neoclassical economy by the way). Putting that aside, my problem with the word "incentive" is that using it as a justification for a practical matter is dumb, and most of time ideologically tainted. | ||
RvB
Netherlands6223 Posts
(Reuters) - The number of Americans filing new claims for unemployment benefits fell sharply last week to the lowest level in almost seven years, which could bolster views of an acceleration in job growth after a cold winter dampened hiring. Initial claims for state unemployment benefits dropped 32,000 to a seasonally adjusted 300,000 for the week ended April 5, the Labor Department said on Thursday. That was the lowest level since May 2007, before the start of the 2007-09 recession. "It's collaborating with the other signals we have been seeing, which is the jobs market is slowly improving. Some of the drop is normalizing from this winter's depressive effect," said Ryan Sweet, a senior economist at Moody's Analytics in West Chester, Pennsylvania. U.S. stock index futures trimmed losses after the claims data. The dollar pared losses against the yen, while U.S. Treasury debt prices gave up some gains. Economists had forecast first-time applications for jobless benefits falling to 320,000 for the week ended April 5. Layoffs are trending lower and hiring is regaining some momentum after being held back by unusually cold weather, snow and ice storms in December and January. Job growth averaged about 195,000 per month in February and March, with the unemployment rate holding at near a five-year low of 6.7 percent over that period. The four-week moving average for new claims, considered a better measure of underlying labor market conditions as it irons out week-to-week volatility, fell to 316,250 in the week ended April 5, down 4,750 from the previous week. The claims report showed the number of people still receiving benefits after an initial week of aid fell 62,000 to 2.78 million in the week ended March 29. That was the lowest level since January 2008. source (Reuters) - The U.S. Federal Reserve's drive to wean Wall Street off risky funding sources is expected to bring more financial pain to the biggest U.S. banks in the coming months, analysts warned on Wednesday. They said bank regulators' release this week of tough new limits on debt funding is just a preview of other rules that may have even more bite. The eight largest U.S. banks must boost their capital levels by an estimated total of $68 billion to meet new limits on debt that regulators approved on Tuesday, a move designed to reduce banks' reliance on the type of risky financing that fueled the 2007-2009 financial crisis. Goldman Sachs (GS.N) and Morgan Stanley (MS.N) could be most affected since regulators proposed a framework that is tougher on businesses like the selling of credit derivatives to protect against corporate defaults, according to Steven Chubak, a banking analyst at Nomura Securities. Executives at some of the biggest Wall Street banks said in interviews that they began planning for the rules when they were proposed last year, and they expect to be in full compliance before the regulations take effect in 2018. But analysts paid special attention to comments from Federal Reserve Governor Daniel Tarullo, who said on Tuesday the tough rules should spur regulators to set more funding limits. Those proposed reforms include a surcharge for the biggest global banks and possibly additional capital rules for banks that rely on risky, short-term funding. Fed officials also want banks to hold much more long-term debt to make it easier for regulators to unwind failing banks in a crisis. "I call them the four horsemen of the apocalypse," said Greg Lyons, who leads the financial institutions group at the law firm Debevoise & Plimpton, in reference to the leverage rules and the three other pending requirements. Without insight into how tough these other rules will be, experts said it's hard to put a number on how much more capital banks will have to raise, or how banks may restructure their businesses to soften the blow. "We've got all of these pieces but ... it's not clear we know where we're going overall, or what the world looks like when we get there," said Oliver Ireland, a partner with Morrison & Foerster in Washington. source Well for all the lobbying the banks do it's not paying off at the moment :D. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
On April 10 2014 23:45 RvB wrote: source source Well for all the lobbying the banks do it's not paying off at the moment :D. Good! ![]() + Show Spoiler + ![]() | ||
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On April 11 2014 00:52 oneofthem wrote: whitedog i agree that incentive talk can overreach but it is still an important mechanism (because it does constitute a part of human behavior). what specific bad incentive based arguments do you have in mind? If 'incentive to work' was anything but complete nonsense everyone in the so called 'welfare states' would be unemployed.The whole 'homo economicus' concept is so far off, it's ridiculous. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On April 11 2014 03:34 oneofthem wrote: it's not complete nonsense at all. if it was complete nonsense the glorious soviet union would be a paradise 'Incentive' is hardly even on the radar when it comes to the perils of the Soviet Union. Outside of the eastern bloc I don't think there are many if any people advocating for another 'Soviet Union'. Using the Soviet example to dispel leftleaning ideas would be like using Rome to deride democracy. I think it was you that had a good point about neoclassical economics. Economists talk about it like it was science, but it wouldn't even past muster in a middle school science class. One of the first assumptions most economists make is dead wrong. Then they build most of their reasoning off of that easily disproved premise. Some of their models may closely resemble some real world situations but it's so far from science the comparison is laughable. I've asked several economists about the 'rational' myth and the liberals admit that it's a ridiculous notion (but it's neccessary to most of the work in economics so they don't bother challenging the mythos. The conservative 'Smith' types still hold onto it like a newborn baby pretty much refusing to admit the prima facie fact that the assumption is wrong. They even undermine REAL scientific studies on human behavior in order to maintain their 'rational' myth. But perhaps that is just my experience. If there are other 'Smith' type economists that admit the 'rational' myth is ridiculous I just haven't met any. | ||
Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 11 2014 03:34 oneofthem wrote: it's not complete nonsense at all. if it was complete nonsense the glorious soviet union would be a paradise I think people confuse incentive to work with free market as a signaling device. Those two are different things. | ||
farvacola
United States18829 Posts
On April 11 2014 04:27 GreenHorizons wrote: One system being nonsense doesn't really have anything to do with the Soviet Union. I think it was you that had a good point about neoclassical economics. Economists talk about it like it was science, but it wouldn't even past muster in a middle school science class. One of the first assumptions most economists make is dead wrong. Then they build most of their reasoning off of that easily disproved premise. Some of their models may closely resemble some real world situations but it's so far from science the comparison is laughable. I've asked several economists and the liberals admit that it's a ridiculous notion. The conservative 'Smith' types still hold onto it like a newborn baby pretty much refusing to admit the prima facie fact that the assumption is wrong. They even undermine REAL scientific studies on human behavior in order to maintain their 'rational' myth. "Conservative Smith types" is an oxymoron ![]() | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Less than two weeks after Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo abruptly shut down a commission he had formed to investigate political corruption in New York State, the United States attorney in Manhattan is sharply questioning the governor’s decision and is taking possession of all of the panel’s case files, according to letters sent to the commission’s members on April 3 and again on Wednesday afternoon. The move by the United States attorney, Preet Bharara, amounted to an unusual rebuke of Mr. Cuomo, a former prosecutor himself, who swept into office four years ago promising to clean up what many have called a culture of corruption in Albany. Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, shown on March 20, announced the demise of his ethics commission on Saturday with little fanfare.Capitol Corruption Panel’s Demise Angers WatchdogsMARCH 31, 2014 Mr. Cuomo created the panel, the Commission to Investigate Public Corruption, in July, with great fanfare and a broad mandate to restore public trust in government. But watchdog groups raised concerns about the panel’s credibility after reports about interference by the governor’s office, which leaned on the commission to limit the scope of its investigations, influence which subpoenas it would issue, and in some cases, stop the commission from issuing subpoenas to groups with ties to Mr. Cuomo. On March 29, Mr. Cuomo announced that as part of budget negotiations between his office and the Legislature, the panel, more commonly known as the Moreland Commission, was being disbanded. Source | ||
GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
Sounds like he found out the wrong thing about the wrong person (who knew something about him). It's not really a surprise when a teenager with a pocket full of drugs gets more prison time than anyone at HSBC who was laundering the drug lords cash. We could get more financial criminals in prison with 2 weeks of stop and frisk on Wall street than all of the federal trials combined... + Show Spoiler + The corruption level is over 9000!!!! Guess it could go either way though depending on who looks like they have the upper hand in budget negotiations. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Kathleen Sebelius is resigning as secretary of Health and Human Services, Bloomberg News and The New York Times reported Thursday. Two senior administration officials confirmed the news to The Huffington Post. Sebelius is expected to announce her resignation on Friday. According to the Times, President Barack Obama accepted her resignation earlier this week. Sebelius is resigning after five years of service in Obama's cabinet. Obama will nominate Sylvia Mathews Burwell to replace Sebelius on Friday morning, the senior administration officials said. Burwell currently serves as director of the Office of Management and Budget. The announcement comes just over a week after the first open enrollment period for Obama's signature health care law came to a close. Though the enrollment period faced a tumultuous rollout, more than 7 million Americans enrolled in health care coverage through the exchanges. Source | ||
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On April 11 2014 03:34 oneofthem wrote: it's not complete nonsense at all. if it was complete nonsense the glorious soviet union would be a paradise Because the only difference between the Soviet Union and the West was the belief in a specific economic concept that even most Western countries have kind of abolished? | ||
JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On April 11 2014 04:27 GreenHorizons wrote: 'Incentive' is hardly even on the radar when it comes to the perils of the Soviet Union. Outside of the eastern bloc I don't think there are many if any people advocating for another 'Soviet Union'. Using the Soviet example to dispel leftleaning ideas would be like using Rome to deride democracy. I think it was you that had a good point about neoclassical economics. Economists talk about it like it was science, but it wouldn't even past muster in a middle school science class. One of the first assumptions most economists make is dead wrong. Then they build most of their reasoning off of that easily disproved premise. Some of their models may closely resemble some real world situations but it's so far from science the comparison is laughable. I've asked several economists about the 'rational' myth and the liberals admit that it's a ridiculous notion (but it's neccessary to most of the work in economics so they don't bother challenging the mythos. The conservative 'Smith' types still hold onto it like a newborn baby pretty much refusing to admit the prima facie fact that the assumption is wrong. They even undermine REAL scientific studies on human behavior in order to maintain their 'rational' myth. But perhaps that is just my experience. If there are other 'Smith' type economists that admit the 'rational' myth is ridiculous I just haven't met any. Rationality isn't a myth, it just doesn't hold true always. There's a difference. Edit: not really disagreeing with you, just reeling in your statement a bit. | ||
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