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On January 24 2018 06:08 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 06:01 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Yes. Reconciliation can only be used once a fiscal year. And I am not really sure the Democrats have messed this one up. The reality is they only have limited power in the Senate. It sounds like moderate republicans are willing to have a full debate on immigration and pass a bill, but it will likely never get voted on by the House. The harsh reality is that the Dreamer’s fate might have been sealed back on November 8, 2016. The Republicans might be totally willing to let the Dreamers be deported rather than vote on immigration, they are just not willing to say that out loud. And if that is true, there is nothing the Democrats can do in 2018. On January 24 2018 05:57 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:55 IyMoon wrote:On January 24 2018 05:50 Logo wrote:
It took awhile, but someone brought up reconciliation for the shutdown. I didn't realize it but the reason the Republicans couldn't use it to keep the government open was because they already used it for the tax bill.
So basically this whole shutdown the Republicans could have averted if they had used their 2018 reconciliation bill for the year to actually reconcile the budge and keep the government open with only 51 votes.
Just shows how bad the dems are at messaging... still... somehow. I mean... that does not seem like a good message. R's cant do it this way because they already used it to do something they all really wanted? "The Rs misused a congressional process and as a result got the government shut down" or "The Rs used budget reconciliation to pass a really unpopular bill which then also caused a government shutdown" seems reasonable messaging? Democrats used it first to pass the ACA. That opened up Pandora’s box. Hypocrisy has never stopped a politician from making a point before. Why now? That messaging would spring back to hurt Dems. You don't want us to use a process you have used before and will likely use when you get back into power? Bad messaging. They're way better off putting blame on DACA negotiations or the House. Maybe they can sell the population that Republicans want too much border security in exchange for amnesty, and push a shutdown to improve their negotiating position.
The difference is whether or not misuse of the budget reconciliation leads to a shutdown of the government or not though. Like yeah it's still hypocritical, but it's a pretty clear case that the Republicans bumbled the budget reconciliation into a shutdown compared to previous misuse of the procedure. It seems like it would have been a reasonable approach given just how unpopular the tax bill was.
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On January 24 2018 06:12 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 06:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 24 2018 05:26 Danglars wrote:
Damn, Democrats are learning something. I don't think it's what you think it is. This is more of a "Trumpian" thing where some billionaire is faking it better than they can by just selling people the comforting lie (which they started). He's got 3 million+ people who signed his petition which is what he was really after in the first place (the mailing list). Democrat politicians are just wary of what seems to be their replacements (wealthy celebs) who are much better at what their roles have become, which is convincing people they want shitty policies that benefit a wealthy few. I understand the impulse, but I don't think this is the news you think it is. They've got some tough races in Trump country. They're attacking more fruitful ground, like Republicans under Trump are bad for the economy, rather than catering to the more radical parts of their base and saying to vote for their side to #Resist #ImpeachTrump. Thus far, with the ineffectual shutdown, they've been too conciliatory to their radical fringe.
I'm presuming when you talk about the "radical fringe" of Democrats you mean specifically the "#resistance/impeach Trump" and not the people left of Democrats who have never been on the impeachment train and while being aware of Trump's racism, tend to focus on the deeper systemic issues in our political system?
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The average voter doesn’t care about reconciliation. It is part of the senate rules and they write their own rules. Abusing it is just abusing the trust to follow the self imposed rules, which sadly was violated first by the Democrats. For a good reason, IMO. But it isn’t the ground to die on. Voters don’t care, they expect congress to function. They don’t care who started the fight most of the time.
If the Democrats can get a DACA bill out of the Senate, that is the best they can hope for. If the Republicans kill it, well then the Democrats did what they could with the power they have.
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On January 24 2018 06:17 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 06:08 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:01 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Yes. Reconciliation can only be used once a fiscal year. And I am not really sure the Democrats have messed this one up. The reality is they only have limited power in the Senate. It sounds like moderate republicans are willing to have a full debate on immigration and pass a bill, but it will likely never get voted on by the House. The harsh reality is that the Dreamer’s fate might have been sealed back on November 8, 2016. The Republicans might be totally willing to let the Dreamers be deported rather than vote on immigration, they are just not willing to say that out loud. And if that is true, there is nothing the Democrats can do in 2018. On January 24 2018 05:57 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:55 IyMoon wrote:On January 24 2018 05:50 Logo wrote:
It took awhile, but someone brought up reconciliation for the shutdown. I didn't realize it but the reason the Republicans couldn't use it to keep the government open was because they already used it for the tax bill.
So basically this whole shutdown the Republicans could have averted if they had used their 2018 reconciliation bill for the year to actually reconcile the budge and keep the government open with only 51 votes.
Just shows how bad the dems are at messaging... still... somehow. I mean... that does not seem like a good message. R's cant do it this way because they already used it to do something they all really wanted? "The Rs misused a congressional process and as a result got the government shut down" or "The Rs used budget reconciliation to pass a really unpopular bill which then also caused a government shutdown" seems reasonable messaging? Democrats used it first to pass the ACA. That opened up Pandora’s box. Hypocrisy has never stopped a politician from making a point before. Why now? That messaging would spring back to hurt Dems. You don't want us to use a process you have used before and will likely use when you get back into power? Bad messaging. They're way better off putting blame on DACA negotiations or the House. Maybe they can sell the population that Republicans want too much border security in exchange for amnesty, and push a shutdown to improve their negotiating position. The difference is whether or not misuse of the budget reconciliation leads to a shutdown of the government or not though. Like yeah it's still hypocritical, but it's a pretty clear case that the Republicans bumbled the budget reconciliation into a shutdown compared to previous misuse of the procedure. It seems like it would have been a reasonable approach given just how unpopular the tax bill was.
The Republicans are supposed to predict Dems won't reach a successful compromise on DACA and will tie that issue to the funding of government (it leads to something for psychics, apparently). You're literally saying we should have second-class Congresses: Those that manage to get 60 united Senators through elections (and get all these fun tools), and those that don't get 60 and get jack shit.
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On January 24 2018 06:40 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 06:17 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 06:08 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:01 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Yes. Reconciliation can only be used once a fiscal year. And I am not really sure the Democrats have messed this one up. The reality is they only have limited power in the Senate. It sounds like moderate republicans are willing to have a full debate on immigration and pass a bill, but it will likely never get voted on by the House. The harsh reality is that the Dreamer’s fate might have been sealed back on November 8, 2016. The Republicans might be totally willing to let the Dreamers be deported rather than vote on immigration, they are just not willing to say that out loud. And if that is true, there is nothing the Democrats can do in 2018. On January 24 2018 05:57 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:55 IyMoon wrote:On January 24 2018 05:50 Logo wrote:
It took awhile, but someone brought up reconciliation for the shutdown. I didn't realize it but the reason the Republicans couldn't use it to keep the government open was because they already used it for the tax bill.
So basically this whole shutdown the Republicans could have averted if they had used their 2018 reconciliation bill for the year to actually reconcile the budge and keep the government open with only 51 votes.
Just shows how bad the dems are at messaging... still... somehow. I mean... that does not seem like a good message. R's cant do it this way because they already used it to do something they all really wanted? "The Rs misused a congressional process and as a result got the government shut down" or "The Rs used budget reconciliation to pass a really unpopular bill which then also caused a government shutdown" seems reasonable messaging? Democrats used it first to pass the ACA. That opened up Pandora’s box. Hypocrisy has never stopped a politician from making a point before. Why now? That messaging would spring back to hurt Dems. You don't want us to use a process you have used before and will likely use when you get back into power? Bad messaging. They're way better off putting blame on DACA negotiations or the House. Maybe they can sell the population that Republicans want too much border security in exchange for amnesty, and push a shutdown to improve their negotiating position. The difference is whether or not misuse of the budget reconciliation leads to a shutdown of the government or not though. Like yeah it's still hypocritical, but it's a pretty clear case that the Republicans bumbled the budget reconciliation into a shutdown compared to previous misuse of the procedure. It seems like it would have been a reasonable approach given just how unpopular the tax bill was. The Republicans are supposed to predict Dems won't reach a successful compromise on DACA and will tie that issue to the funding of government (it leads to something for psychics, apparently). You're literally saying we should have second-class Congresses: Those that manage to get 60 united Senators through elections (and get all these fun tools), and those that don't get 60 and get jack shit.
I expect them to keep the government open and handle the procedural labyrinth of congress with some level of competence. They get 1 budget reconciliation & they need to pass something to keep the government open. If they blow that 1 chance by doing something else and give a lot of power to the minority party then that was their choice.
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In unfairness, i'ts not like the republicans had an actual budget they could've passed through reconciliation, they can't even agree on one 
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On January 24 2018 06:44 zlefin wrote:In unfairness, i'ts not like the republicans had an actual budget they could've passed through reconciliation, they can't even agree on one
Fair enough, I guess only needing 50 votes is useless if you can't even get 50 from your party.
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On January 24 2018 06:40 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 06:17 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 06:08 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:01 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Yes. Reconciliation can only be used once a fiscal year. And I am not really sure the Democrats have messed this one up. The reality is they only have limited power in the Senate. It sounds like moderate republicans are willing to have a full debate on immigration and pass a bill, but it will likely never get voted on by the House. The harsh reality is that the Dreamer’s fate might have been sealed back on November 8, 2016. The Republicans might be totally willing to let the Dreamers be deported rather than vote on immigration, they are just not willing to say that out loud. And if that is true, there is nothing the Democrats can do in 2018. On January 24 2018 05:57 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:55 IyMoon wrote:On January 24 2018 05:50 Logo wrote:
It took awhile, but someone brought up reconciliation for the shutdown. I didn't realize it but the reason the Republicans couldn't use it to keep the government open was because they already used it for the tax bill.
So basically this whole shutdown the Republicans could have averted if they had used their 2018 reconciliation bill for the year to actually reconcile the budge and keep the government open with only 51 votes.
Just shows how bad the dems are at messaging... still... somehow. I mean... that does not seem like a good message. R's cant do it this way because they already used it to do something they all really wanted? "The Rs misused a congressional process and as a result got the government shut down" or "The Rs used budget reconciliation to pass a really unpopular bill which then also caused a government shutdown" seems reasonable messaging? Democrats used it first to pass the ACA. That opened up Pandora’s box. Hypocrisy has never stopped a politician from making a point before. Why now? That messaging would spring back to hurt Dems. You don't want us to use a process you have used before and will likely use when you get back into power? Bad messaging. They're way better off putting blame on DACA negotiations or the House. Maybe they can sell the population that Republicans want too much border security in exchange for amnesty, and push a shutdown to improve their negotiating position. The difference is whether or not misuse of the budget reconciliation leads to a shutdown of the government or not though. Like yeah it's still hypocritical, but it's a pretty clear case that the Republicans bumbled the budget reconciliation into a shutdown compared to previous misuse of the procedure. It seems like it would have been a reasonable approach given just how unpopular the tax bill was. The Republicans are supposed to predict Dems won't reach a successful compromise on DACA and will tie that issue to the funding of government (it leads to something for psychics, apparently). You're literally saying we should have second-class Congresses: Those that manage to get 60 united Senators through elections (and get all these fun tools), and those that don't get 60 and get jack shit.
To be fair to the Democrats, it is up to the Senate leadership to put forth bills that will pass. The Graham Durbin bill was “not productive” according to McConnell.
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On January 24 2018 06:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 06:40 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:17 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 06:08 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:01 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Yes. Reconciliation can only be used once a fiscal year. And I am not really sure the Democrats have messed this one up. The reality is they only have limited power in the Senate. It sounds like moderate republicans are willing to have a full debate on immigration and pass a bill, but it will likely never get voted on by the House. The harsh reality is that the Dreamer’s fate might have been sealed back on November 8, 2016. The Republicans might be totally willing to let the Dreamers be deported rather than vote on immigration, they are just not willing to say that out loud. And if that is true, there is nothing the Democrats can do in 2018. On January 24 2018 05:57 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:55 IyMoon wrote:On January 24 2018 05:50 Logo wrote:
It took awhile, but someone brought up reconciliation for the shutdown. I didn't realize it but the reason the Republicans couldn't use it to keep the government open was because they already used it for the tax bill.
So basically this whole shutdown the Republicans could have averted if they had used their 2018 reconciliation bill for the year to actually reconcile the budge and keep the government open with only 51 votes.
Just shows how bad the dems are at messaging... still... somehow. I mean... that does not seem like a good message. R's cant do it this way because they already used it to do something they all really wanted? "The Rs misused a congressional process and as a result got the government shut down" or "The Rs used budget reconciliation to pass a really unpopular bill which then also caused a government shutdown" seems reasonable messaging? Democrats used it first to pass the ACA. That opened up Pandora’s box. Hypocrisy has never stopped a politician from making a point before. Why now? That messaging would spring back to hurt Dems. You don't want us to use a process you have used before and will likely use when you get back into power? Bad messaging. They're way better off putting blame on DACA negotiations or the House. Maybe they can sell the population that Republicans want too much border security in exchange for amnesty, and push a shutdown to improve their negotiating position. The difference is whether or not misuse of the budget reconciliation leads to a shutdown of the government or not though. Like yeah it's still hypocritical, but it's a pretty clear case that the Republicans bumbled the budget reconciliation into a shutdown compared to previous misuse of the procedure. It seems like it would have been a reasonable approach given just how unpopular the tax bill was. The Republicans are supposed to predict Dems won't reach a successful compromise on DACA and will tie that issue to the funding of government (it leads to something for psychics, apparently). You're literally saying we should have second-class Congresses: Those that manage to get 60 united Senators through elections (and get all these fun tools), and those that don't get 60 and get jack shit. To be fair to the Democrats, it is up to the Senate leadership to put forth bills that will pass. The Graham Durbin bill was “not productive” according to McConnell.
Sanders came out today and said that bill is DOA
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On January 24 2018 06:51 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 06:49 Plansix wrote:On January 24 2018 06:40 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:17 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 06:08 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:01 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Yes. Reconciliation can only be used once a fiscal year. And I am not really sure the Democrats have messed this one up. The reality is they only have limited power in the Senate. It sounds like moderate republicans are willing to have a full debate on immigration and pass a bill, but it will likely never get voted on by the House. The harsh reality is that the Dreamer’s fate might have been sealed back on November 8, 2016. The Republicans might be totally willing to let the Dreamers be deported rather than vote on immigration, they are just not willing to say that out loud. And if that is true, there is nothing the Democrats can do in 2018. On January 24 2018 05:57 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:55 IyMoon wrote:On January 24 2018 05:50 Logo wrote:
It took awhile, but someone brought up reconciliation for the shutdown. I didn't realize it but the reason the Republicans couldn't use it to keep the government open was because they already used it for the tax bill.
So basically this whole shutdown the Republicans could have averted if they had used their 2018 reconciliation bill for the year to actually reconcile the budge and keep the government open with only 51 votes.
Just shows how bad the dems are at messaging... still... somehow. I mean... that does not seem like a good message. R's cant do it this way because they already used it to do something they all really wanted? "The Rs misused a congressional process and as a result got the government shut down" or "The Rs used budget reconciliation to pass a really unpopular bill which then also caused a government shutdown" seems reasonable messaging? Democrats used it first to pass the ACA. That opened up Pandora’s box. Hypocrisy has never stopped a politician from making a point before. Why now? That messaging would spring back to hurt Dems. You don't want us to use a process you have used before and will likely use when you get back into power? Bad messaging. They're way better off putting blame on DACA negotiations or the House. Maybe they can sell the population that Republicans want too much border security in exchange for amnesty, and push a shutdown to improve their negotiating position. The difference is whether or not misuse of the budget reconciliation leads to a shutdown of the government or not though. Like yeah it's still hypocritical, but it's a pretty clear case that the Republicans bumbled the budget reconciliation into a shutdown compared to previous misuse of the procedure. It seems like it would have been a reasonable approach given just how unpopular the tax bill was. The Republicans are supposed to predict Dems won't reach a successful compromise on DACA and will tie that issue to the funding of government (it leads to something for psychics, apparently). You're literally saying we should have second-class Congresses: Those that manage to get 60 united Senators through elections (and get all these fun tools), and those that don't get 60 and get jack shit. To be fair to the Democrats, it is up to the Senate leadership to put forth bills that will pass. The Graham Durbin bill was “not productive” according to McConnell. Sanders came out today and said that bill is DOA
Which Sanders?
EDIT: in hindsight it's obvious it's Sarah I guess.
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On January 24 2018 06:51 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 06:49 Plansix wrote:On January 24 2018 06:40 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:17 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 06:08 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:01 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Yes. Reconciliation can only be used once a fiscal year. And I am not really sure the Democrats have messed this one up. The reality is they only have limited power in the Senate. It sounds like moderate republicans are willing to have a full debate on immigration and pass a bill, but it will likely never get voted on by the House. The harsh reality is that the Dreamer’s fate might have been sealed back on November 8, 2016. The Republicans might be totally willing to let the Dreamers be deported rather than vote on immigration, they are just not willing to say that out loud. And if that is true, there is nothing the Democrats can do in 2018. On January 24 2018 05:57 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:55 IyMoon wrote:On January 24 2018 05:50 Logo wrote:
It took awhile, but someone brought up reconciliation for the shutdown. I didn't realize it but the reason the Republicans couldn't use it to keep the government open was because they already used it for the tax bill.
So basically this whole shutdown the Republicans could have averted if they had used their 2018 reconciliation bill for the year to actually reconcile the budge and keep the government open with only 51 votes.
Just shows how bad the dems are at messaging... still... somehow. I mean... that does not seem like a good message. R's cant do it this way because they already used it to do something they all really wanted? "The Rs misused a congressional process and as a result got the government shut down" or "The Rs used budget reconciliation to pass a really unpopular bill which then also caused a government shutdown" seems reasonable messaging? Democrats used it first to pass the ACA. That opened up Pandora’s box. Hypocrisy has never stopped a politician from making a point before. Why now? That messaging would spring back to hurt Dems. You don't want us to use a process you have used before and will likely use when you get back into power? Bad messaging. They're way better off putting blame on DACA negotiations or the House. Maybe they can sell the population that Republicans want too much border security in exchange for amnesty, and push a shutdown to improve their negotiating position. The difference is whether or not misuse of the budget reconciliation leads to a shutdown of the government or not though. Like yeah it's still hypocritical, but it's a pretty clear case that the Republicans bumbled the budget reconciliation into a shutdown compared to previous misuse of the procedure. It seems like it would have been a reasonable approach given just how unpopular the tax bill was. The Republicans are supposed to predict Dems won't reach a successful compromise on DACA and will tie that issue to the funding of government (it leads to something for psychics, apparently). You're literally saying we should have second-class Congresses: Those that manage to get 60 united Senators through elections (and get all these fun tools), and those that don't get 60 and get jack shit. To be fair to the Democrats, it is up to the Senate leadership to put forth bills that will pass. The Graham Durbin bill was “not productive” according to McConnell. Sanders came out today and said that bill is DOA
My response: Prove it. The Senate can vote on it and it can die in the House or by Veto. Congress shouldn’t be setting agenda on which bills the white house press secretary says are DOA.
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On January 24 2018 06:43 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 06:40 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:17 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 06:08 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:01 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Yes. Reconciliation can only be used once a fiscal year. And I am not really sure the Democrats have messed this one up. The reality is they only have limited power in the Senate. It sounds like moderate republicans are willing to have a full debate on immigration and pass a bill, but it will likely never get voted on by the House. The harsh reality is that the Dreamer’s fate might have been sealed back on November 8, 2016. The Republicans might be totally willing to let the Dreamers be deported rather than vote on immigration, they are just not willing to say that out loud. And if that is true, there is nothing the Democrats can do in 2018. On January 24 2018 05:57 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:55 IyMoon wrote:On January 24 2018 05:50 Logo wrote:
It took awhile, but someone brought up reconciliation for the shutdown. I didn't realize it but the reason the Republicans couldn't use it to keep the government open was because they already used it for the tax bill.
So basically this whole shutdown the Republicans could have averted if they had used their 2018 reconciliation bill for the year to actually reconcile the budge and keep the government open with only 51 votes.
Just shows how bad the dems are at messaging... still... somehow. I mean... that does not seem like a good message. R's cant do it this way because they already used it to do something they all really wanted? "The Rs misused a congressional process and as a result got the government shut down" or "The Rs used budget reconciliation to pass a really unpopular bill which then also caused a government shutdown" seems reasonable messaging? Democrats used it first to pass the ACA. That opened up Pandora’s box. Hypocrisy has never stopped a politician from making a point before. Why now? That messaging would spring back to hurt Dems. You don't want us to use a process you have used before and will likely use when you get back into power? Bad messaging. They're way better off putting blame on DACA negotiations or the House. Maybe they can sell the population that Republicans want too much border security in exchange for amnesty, and push a shutdown to improve their negotiating position. The difference is whether or not misuse of the budget reconciliation leads to a shutdown of the government or not though. Like yeah it's still hypocritical, but it's a pretty clear case that the Republicans bumbled the budget reconciliation into a shutdown compared to previous misuse of the procedure. It seems like it would have been a reasonable approach given just how unpopular the tax bill was. The Republicans are supposed to predict Dems won't reach a successful compromise on DACA and will tie that issue to the funding of government (it leads to something for psychics, apparently). You're literally saying we should have second-class Congresses: Those that manage to get 60 united Senators through elections (and get all these fun tools), and those that don't get 60 and get jack shit. I expect them to keep the government open and handle the procedural labyrinth of congress with some level of competence. They get 1 budget reconciliation & they need to pass something to keep the government open. If they blow that 1 chance by doing something else and give a lot of power to the minority party then that was their choice.
Republicans never had the votes to unilaterally fund the government. That kind of puts some roadblocks in "need to pass something to keep the government open" when the other side can make whatever demands it wants.
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On January 24 2018 07:03 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 06:43 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 06:40 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:17 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 06:08 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:01 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Yes. Reconciliation can only be used once a fiscal year. And I am not really sure the Democrats have messed this one up. The reality is they only have limited power in the Senate. It sounds like moderate republicans are willing to have a full debate on immigration and pass a bill, but it will likely never get voted on by the House. The harsh reality is that the Dreamer’s fate might have been sealed back on November 8, 2016. The Republicans might be totally willing to let the Dreamers be deported rather than vote on immigration, they are just not willing to say that out loud. And if that is true, there is nothing the Democrats can do in 2018. On January 24 2018 05:57 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:55 IyMoon wrote:On January 24 2018 05:50 Logo wrote:
It took awhile, but someone brought up reconciliation for the shutdown. I didn't realize it but the reason the Republicans couldn't use it to keep the government open was because they already used it for the tax bill.
So basically this whole shutdown the Republicans could have averted if they had used their 2018 reconciliation bill for the year to actually reconcile the budge and keep the government open with only 51 votes.
Just shows how bad the dems are at messaging... still... somehow. I mean... that does not seem like a good message. R's cant do it this way because they already used it to do something they all really wanted? "The Rs misused a congressional process and as a result got the government shut down" or "The Rs used budget reconciliation to pass a really unpopular bill which then also caused a government shutdown" seems reasonable messaging? Democrats used it first to pass the ACA. That opened up Pandora’s box. Hypocrisy has never stopped a politician from making a point before. Why now? That messaging would spring back to hurt Dems. You don't want us to use a process you have used before and will likely use when you get back into power? Bad messaging. They're way better off putting blame on DACA negotiations or the House. Maybe they can sell the population that Republicans want too much border security in exchange for amnesty, and push a shutdown to improve their negotiating position. The difference is whether or not misuse of the budget reconciliation leads to a shutdown of the government or not though. Like yeah it's still hypocritical, but it's a pretty clear case that the Republicans bumbled the budget reconciliation into a shutdown compared to previous misuse of the procedure. It seems like it would have been a reasonable approach given just how unpopular the tax bill was. The Republicans are supposed to predict Dems won't reach a successful compromise on DACA and will tie that issue to the funding of government (it leads to something for psychics, apparently). You're literally saying we should have second-class Congresses: Those that manage to get 60 united Senators through elections (and get all these fun tools), and those that don't get 60 and get jack shit. I expect them to keep the government open and handle the procedural labyrinth of congress with some level of competence. They get 1 budget reconciliation & they need to pass something to keep the government open. If they blow that 1 chance by doing something else and give a lot of power to the minority party then that was their choice. Republicans never had the votes to unilaterally fund the government. That kind of puts some roadblocks in "need to pass something to keep the government open" when the other side can make whatever demands it wants.
it's very poor form o fthem to not ever have such a number of votes. shame on them.
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It can be spun any number of ways, but the Republicans control the floor and what is voted on. If they want government to function, they need to debate and vote on issues Democrats want. Not all the time, but more than the zero times that it happened in 2017. Also, anyone in 2008-2010 that whined about the ACA process doesn’t have a leg to stand on in 2018.
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Just a personal Shutdown anecdote since I work extensively with the CBP's ACE Tech dept. pretty much daily.
+ Show Spoiler +All of my assigned contacts and reps at the CBP are off work due to the shutdown. There is literally a standstill on certain trade activities because there is no one available to troubleshoot system errors and failures on the CBP side. This is hilarious. I've never been a position to smugly tell VP's at multinationals that they're ships are going to have to sit at ports and accrue thousands of dollars daily on demurrage and othe costs and they can blame the US Govt because the people who are supposed to fix it simply aren't showing up to work. I usually have to do alot of smooth talking and take some heat in these situations. The last 2 days. Not a single complaint. Just resigned acceptance. The even funnier part is that there is no one actually there to claim the demurrage. What a clown show. This is the standard response from like everywhere (removed some clandestine info) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/zQczk8v.jpg) Oh and there is no one available at the emergency services lines either.
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I saw people talking about the NRA a few pages back and the international people might be really confused seeing the numbers behind the NRA and their power over national policy.
Its not that the NRA is that powerful its that they're very influential in the demographics of voters that tend to vote democrat especially in the south and Midwest where the image of the pro gun control side brings up images of big cities with gangs and murders in the coasts.
At best I'd say they have a hand of maybe 5 million voters they can mobilize for or against politicians but those votes spread out so much can and has flipped elections very easily. Not to mention the gun industry gives them all the money they need to hire competent people. You look on the other side of the issue and you find a lot of really bad organizations that are either woefully underfunded or just terrible at their job.
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The NRA knows how to find a candidate and turn out voters in a primary. And when primaries are basically the general election in red states, the NRA rules.
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On January 24 2018 07:10 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 07:03 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:43 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 06:40 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:17 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 06:08 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2018 06:01 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Yes. Reconciliation can only be used once a fiscal year. And I am not really sure the Democrats have messed this one up. The reality is they only have limited power in the Senate. It sounds like moderate republicans are willing to have a full debate on immigration and pass a bill, but it will likely never get voted on by the House. The harsh reality is that the Dreamer’s fate might have been sealed back on November 8, 2016. The Republicans might be totally willing to let the Dreamers be deported rather than vote on immigration, they are just not willing to say that out loud. And if that is true, there is nothing the Democrats can do in 2018. On January 24 2018 05:57 Logo wrote:On January 24 2018 05:55 IyMoon wrote:
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I mean... that does not seem like a good message.
R's cant do it this way because they already used it to do something they all really wanted? "The Rs misused a congressional process and as a result got the government shut down" or "The Rs used budget reconciliation to pass a really unpopular bill which then also caused a government shutdown" seems reasonable messaging? Democrats used it first to pass the ACA. That opened up Pandora’s box. Hypocrisy has never stopped a politician from making a point before. Why now? That messaging would spring back to hurt Dems. You don't want us to use a process you have used before and will likely use when you get back into power? Bad messaging. They're way better off putting blame on DACA negotiations or the House. Maybe they can sell the population that Republicans want too much border security in exchange for amnesty, and push a shutdown to improve their negotiating position. The difference is whether or not misuse of the budget reconciliation leads to a shutdown of the government or not though. Like yeah it's still hypocritical, but it's a pretty clear case that the Republicans bumbled the budget reconciliation into a shutdown compared to previous misuse of the procedure. It seems like it would have been a reasonable approach given just how unpopular the tax bill was. The Republicans are supposed to predict Dems won't reach a successful compromise on DACA and will tie that issue to the funding of government (it leads to something for psychics, apparently). You're literally saying we should have second-class Congresses: Those that manage to get 60 united Senators through elections (and get all these fun tools), and those that don't get 60 and get jack shit. I expect them to keep the government open and handle the procedural labyrinth of congress with some level of competence. They get 1 budget reconciliation & they need to pass something to keep the government open. If they blow that 1 chance by doing something else and give a lot of power to the minority party then that was their choice. Republicans never had the votes to unilaterally fund the government. That kind of puts some roadblocks in "need to pass something to keep the government open" when the other side can make whatever demands it wants. it's very poor form o fthem to not ever have such a number of votes. shame on them.
I know right? Kind of weird that someone would argue for misuse of budget reconciliation from an objective standpoint, when Plansix and I agree that it's used as political considerations by both sides.
On January 24 2018 07:41 Plansix wrote:
The NRA knows how to find a candidate and turn out voters in a primary. And when primaries are basically the general election in red states, the NRA rules.
The power is primarily in the membership. It's not even in top-15 for political donations to important representatives. It's the wide membership and allies that look to their positions for voting.
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From all reports I have heard from political observers, the NRA has made a reputation of mobilizing itself and local gun owners against any Republican that tries to legislate new gun laws or update old ones. And as I said, this is very powerful in red states where turn outs for primaries is low.
And using reconciliation for the ACA was a bad move. The Republicans further this problem by using it twice in the span of 1 year(2 fiscal years) to try to slam through legislation. It shouldn’t’ really matter who behaved badly first, since the people doing it currently should know better. A bunch of these Senators were in congress back in late 1990s and earlier. They know how to make the process work, which is by bringing things to the floor and voting on them.
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As Trump announces tariffs, Trudeau unveils Canada’s new trade deal with Asia
DAVOS, Switzerland — Hours after the Trump administration announced its first major tariffs on imported washing machines and solar panels, Canadadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told a global audience that his country had just reached a historic trade deal with 10 Asia-Pacific countries. The symbolism from Canada was clear: When it comes to trade, the rest of the world is ready to move forward without President Trump.
“Today is a great day for Canada but it is also a great day for progressive trade around the world,” Trudeau said Tuesday at an annual gathering of business and political elites in Davos, Switzerland.
Trudeau called the new deal the CPTPP, which stands for the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership. The name was a reminder that Canada and other nations went forward with the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) after Trump pulled out a year ago. The withdrawal from TPP was one of Trump's first acts as president. At the time, experts warned that leaving TPP probably would mean the United States would be outflanked on trade.
"In pulling out of TPP a year ago, the United States relinquished one of the most powerful tools at our disposal to shape the global trading environment," says Matthew Rooney, director of economic growth at the George W. Bush Institute.
CPTPP drops tariffs on many goods flowing between the countries and sets up new rules for labor rights and environmental standards. The agreement involves Canada, Japan, Australia, Singapore, Mexico and six other nations that border the Pacific Ocean. China is not part of the deal, which was originally conceived as a way to counter China's growing economic power.
Trump, who has called TPP a “disaster” and a “rape” of American workers, is scheduled to speak Friday on the same stage at Davos where Trudeau announced his new trade agreement.
Anticipation is high in Davos that Trump will announce further trade measures in 2018 — and there is concern about the future of the North American Free Trade Agreement.
“What we want is fair trade,” Trump has said repeatedly. “We're gonna treat countries fairly, but they have to treat us fairly.”
American, Canadian and Mexican officials are meeting in Montreal this week for a sixth round of talks aimed at renegotiating NAFTA. Trump has said the trade agreement, in effect since 1994, hurts U.S. manufacturing and workers.
But numerous business leaders say NAFTA has created many jobs and they point out that there's no trade deficit between the United States and Canada. In fact, the United States ran a small trade surplus with Canada in 2016.
“We’re working hard to make sure our neighbor to the south understands the benefits of NAFTA,” Trudeau said with a smile to the Davos crowd.
But even in Davos, which is favored by champions of globalization, there is vocal opposition to trade from critics who say it has benefited the elites at the expense of the middle class in many parts of the world.
“The model of globalization has failed working people,” said Sharan Burrow, head of the International Trade Union Confederation, a global labor organization. “Eighty-five percent of people in our polls say they want to rewrite the rules of global trade.”
Burrow is calling for a “new social contract” in which governments and businesses give more protections to workers, including the ability to unionize. Her solution differs greatly from Trump's push to scale back regulations on businesses.
Many chief executives at Davos say they don't view Trump's recent tariffs as the start of a global trade war. They think that the U.S. president is looking to score political points with his base, but that he won't want to upset the stock market record highs and the faster economic growth by putting up too many trade barriers, a move that probably would spook businesses and investors.
“Trump is coming [to Davos] to show he's not the ogre he's been portrayed as,” said David Rubenstein, co-founder of the Carlyle Group, a top private equity firm.
Rubenstein has close ties to some Trump staff members, including Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin. Rubenstein predicted that Trump's message Friday will be: “I want to work with you, but you have to work on my terms.”
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The tariff on solar panels is impressive because it seemed to make everyone unhappy all at once. No one is going to make solar panels in the US because of that tariff.
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EPT
