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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Amnesty is a word they use to stoke outrage. It implies something unfair, even those most of our families came over when there were no immigration laws or restrictions. The Dreams will have arrive the exact same way my great grandmother and grandfather did, as children.
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On January 21 2018 07:14 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 14:33 Introvert wrote:On January 20 2018 14:29 NewSunshine wrote:On January 20 2018 14:27 Introvert wrote:
I find it fascinating that in 2013 it was the minority party's fault but this time we all play dumb and pretend the filibuster doesn't exist. Especially funny since Schumer objected to the motion for unanimous consent to move to a vote.
Shows how intellectually bankrupt Democrats are on shutdown politics. Republicans blamed their own party last time. Are you really about to pretend that with Republicans in control of the House, the Senate, and the White House, the Democrats are to blame in any meaningful way? Your boys did this. Own it and hold them accountable. Yep! One party suggested a clean bill, the other ensured it required 60 votes then didn't grant them. I'm making actual arguments while everyone here is being intellectually dishonest to an amazing extent and making vague arguments about "controlling all branches." In previous years we would have heard about how the minority party has to make sacrifices and accept that they don't run it all. Now, that argument has disappeared. It has to be dishonesty, no one in this thread is stupid enough to try and argue it's any different, so they don't. So have fun, the primaries will be so much more boring. This is way back now, but want to highlight how true this is. I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted at the doublethink tbh. Interestingly, it's not just here. The official line from Schumer appears to be "they control all three branches" while conveniently ignoring they're still unable to avoid a shutdown without Dem votes.If someone wanted to argue DACA is worth it and shutdown politics is justified now but wasn't in 2013, I could at least disagree while understanding the argument. Instead, the suspension of reason/active ignorance feels eerily Trumpian. It's even more worrisome to me when the supposed intellectual party are willing to fall for this nonsense tbh.
People aren't ignoring it, rather that's precisely the point. You have a party that's unwilling to reach any form of compromise with opposing views, and have spent so long saying no to everyone that they don't even know how to agree with each other anymore. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can see what's happened and still shill for Republicans, they've just shown everyone the most complete and utter failure a leadership possibly can. You don't get to complain that the minority didn't just go along with everything you wanted. This is a government built on compromise. And your boys are bent on eliminating it and just running the show themselves. Surprise, it doesn't work.
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On January 21 2018 07:14 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 14:33 Introvert wrote:On January 20 2018 14:29 NewSunshine wrote:On January 20 2018 14:27 Introvert wrote:
I find it fascinating that in 2013 it was the minority party's fault but this time we all play dumb and pretend the filibuster doesn't exist. Especially funny since Schumer objected to the motion for unanimous consent to move to a vote.
Shows how intellectually bankrupt Democrats are on shutdown politics. Republicans blamed their own party last time. Are you really about to pretend that with Republicans in control of the House, the Senate, and the White House, the Democrats are to blame in any meaningful way? Your boys did this. Own it and hold them accountable. Yep! One party suggested a clean bill, the other ensured it required 60 votes then didn't grant them. I'm making actual arguments while everyone here is being intellectually dishonest to an amazing extent and making vague arguments about "controlling all branches." In previous years we would have heard about how the minority party has to make sacrifices and accept that they don't run it all. Now, that argument has disappeared. It has to be dishonesty, no one in this thread is stupid enough to try and argue it's any different, so they don't. So have fun, the primaries will be so much more boring. This is way back now, but want to highlight how true this is. I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted at the doublethink tbh. Interestingly, it's not just here. The official line from Schumer appears to be "they control all three branches" while conveniently ignoring they're still unable to avoid a shutdown without Dem votes. If someone wanted to argue DACA is worth it and shutdown politics is justified now but wasn't in 2013, I could at least disagree while understanding the argument. Instead, the suspension of reason/active ignorance feels eerily Trumpian. It's even more worrisome to me when the supposed intellectual party are willing to fall for this nonsense tbh.
And ... you prompt another wave of dishonest responses. Its Trumpian, like one party elected him and the other party elected to use his tactics.
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On January 21 2018 08:22 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 07:14 mozoku wrote:On January 20 2018 14:33 Introvert wrote:On January 20 2018 14:29 NewSunshine wrote:On January 20 2018 14:27 Introvert wrote:
I find it fascinating that in 2013 it was the minority party's fault but this time we all play dumb and pretend the filibuster doesn't exist. Especially funny since Schumer objected to the motion for unanimous consent to move to a vote.
Shows how intellectually bankrupt Democrats are on shutdown politics. Republicans blamed their own party last time. Are you really about to pretend that with Republicans in control of the House, the Senate, and the White House, the Democrats are to blame in any meaningful way? Your boys did this. Own it and hold them accountable. Yep! One party suggested a clean bill, the other ensured it required 60 votes then didn't grant them. I'm making actual arguments while everyone here is being intellectually dishonest to an amazing extent and making vague arguments about "controlling all branches." In previous years we would have heard about how the minority party has to make sacrifices and accept that they don't run it all. Now, that argument has disappeared. It has to be dishonesty, no one in this thread is stupid enough to try and argue it's any different, so they don't. So have fun, the primaries will be so much more boring. This is way back now, but want to highlight how true this is. I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted at the doublethink tbh. Interestingly, it's not just here. The official line from Schumer appears to be "they control all three branches" while conveniently ignoring they're still unable to avoid a shutdown without Dem votes. If someone wanted to argue DACA is worth it and shutdown politics is justified now but wasn't in 2013, I could at least disagree while understanding the argument. Instead, the suspension of reason/active ignorance feels eerily Trumpian. It's even more worrisome to me when the supposed intellectual party are willing to fall for this nonsense tbh. And ... you prompt another wave of dishonest responses. Its Trumpian, like one party elected him and the other party elected to use his tactics.
Personally, I view responding to others' arguments with vague dismissals quoting the person they were arguing against rather than actual substantive arguments as pretty Trumpian myself.
Surely you agree McConnell and Ryan and the GOP control every bill that goes to the floor, unlike the 2013 shutdown? And that there's currently a bill that could get a majority vote in the House and 60 votes in the Senate, but has not been let to the floor?
They don't have a filibuster-proof majority, but saying "oh because of da filibuster dey don't have any more power!!" is asinine.
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On January 21 2018 08:22 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 07:14 mozoku wrote:On January 20 2018 14:33 Introvert wrote:On January 20 2018 14:29 NewSunshine wrote:On January 20 2018 14:27 Introvert wrote:
I find it fascinating that in 2013 it was the minority party's fault but this time we all play dumb and pretend the filibuster doesn't exist. Especially funny since Schumer objected to the motion for unanimous consent to move to a vote.
Shows how intellectually bankrupt Democrats are on shutdown politics. Republicans blamed their own party last time. Are you really about to pretend that with Republicans in control of the House, the Senate, and the White House, the Democrats are to blame in any meaningful way? Your boys did this. Own it and hold them accountable. Yep! One party suggested a clean bill, the other ensured it required 60 votes then didn't grant them. I'm making actual arguments while everyone here is being intellectually dishonest to an amazing extent and making vague arguments about "controlling all branches." In previous years we would have heard about how the minority party has to make sacrifices and accept that they don't run it all. Now, that argument has disappeared. It has to be dishonesty, no one in this thread is stupid enough to try and argue it's any different, so they don't. So have fun, the primaries will be so much more boring. This is way back now, but want to highlight how true this is. I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted at the doublethink tbh. Interestingly, it's not just here. The official line from Schumer appears to be "they control all three branches" while conveniently ignoring they're still unable to avoid a shutdown without Dem votes. If someone wanted to argue DACA is worth it and shutdown politics is justified now but wasn't in 2013, I could at least disagree while understanding the argument. Instead, the suspension of reason/active ignorance feels eerily Trumpian. It's even more worrisome to me when the supposed intellectual party are willing to fall for this nonsense tbh. And ... you prompt another wave of dishonest responses. Its Trumpian, like one party elected him and the other party elected to use his tactics.
If you want to argue with me, feel free to do so directly. But let me warn you: you're gonna have a hard time convincing me this shutdown is the product of anything but the failure of Republicans, and their proclivity for playing games with anyone who opposes them. You want the majorities, you want the power, well you got it. Don't be upset when it still doesn't work out for you. I have no sympathy for people who don't get this.
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On January 21 2018 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 07:14 mozoku wrote:On January 20 2018 14:33 Introvert wrote:On January 20 2018 14:29 NewSunshine wrote:On January 20 2018 14:27 Introvert wrote:
I find it fascinating that in 2013 it was the minority party's fault but this time we all play dumb and pretend the filibuster doesn't exist. Especially funny since Schumer objected to the motion for unanimous consent to move to a vote.
Shows how intellectually bankrupt Democrats are on shutdown politics. Republicans blamed their own party last time. Are you really about to pretend that with Republicans in control of the House, the Senate, and the White House, the Democrats are to blame in any meaningful way? Your boys did this. Own it and hold them accountable. Yep! One party suggested a clean bill, the other ensured it required 60 votes then didn't grant them. I'm making actual arguments while everyone here is being intellectually dishonest to an amazing extent and making vague arguments about "controlling all branches." In previous years we would have heard about how the minority party has to make sacrifices and accept that they don't run it all. Now, that argument has disappeared. It has to be dishonesty, no one in this thread is stupid enough to try and argue it's any different, so they don't. So have fun, the primaries will be so much more boring. This is way back now, but want to highlight how true this is. I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted at the doublethink tbh. Interestingly, it's not just here. The official line from Schumer appears to be "they control all three branches" while conveniently ignoring they're still unable to avoid a shutdown without Dem votes.If someone wanted to argue DACA is worth it and shutdown politics is justified now but wasn't in 2013, I could at least disagree while understanding the argument. Instead, the suspension of reason/active ignorance feels eerily Trumpian. It's even more worrisome to me when the supposed intellectual party are willing to fall for this nonsense tbh. People aren't ignoring it, rather that's precisely the point. You have a party that's unwilling to reach any form of compromise with opposing views, and have spent so long saying no to everyone that they don't even know how to agree with each other anymore. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can see what's happened and still shill for Republicans, they've just shown everyone the most complete and utter failure a leadership possibly can. You don't get to complain that the minority didn't just go along with everything you wanted. This is a government built on compromise. And your boys are bent on eliminating it and just running the show themselves. Surprise, it doesn't work.
DACA has nothing to with funding the government. If you want DACA to remain (which I do), you need to win the elections necessary to do so. Democrats didn't. To make up for it, they're refusing to fund the government until DACA is restored and then complaining that the GOP never compromises when the party that actually won the elections says no.
There's no way to look at it without it being literally "hostage tactics."
Most of the posts here are shunning real arguments in here in favor of just GOP-bashing (and deservedly so), but it's still nothing more than the whataboutism that you guys constantly complain about.
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On January 21 2018 09:37 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On January 21 2018 07:14 mozoku wrote:On January 20 2018 14:33 Introvert wrote:On January 20 2018 14:29 NewSunshine wrote:On January 20 2018 14:27 Introvert wrote:
I find it fascinating that in 2013 it was the minority party's fault but this time we all play dumb and pretend the filibuster doesn't exist. Especially funny since Schumer objected to the motion for unanimous consent to move to a vote.
Shows how intellectually bankrupt Democrats are on shutdown politics. Republicans blamed their own party last time. Are you really about to pretend that with Republicans in control of the House, the Senate, and the White House, the Democrats are to blame in any meaningful way? Your boys did this. Own it and hold them accountable. Yep! One party suggested a clean bill, the other ensured it required 60 votes then didn't grant them. I'm making actual arguments while everyone here is being intellectually dishonest to an amazing extent and making vague arguments about "controlling all branches." In previous years we would have heard about how the minority party has to make sacrifices and accept that they don't run it all. Now, that argument has disappeared. It has to be dishonesty, no one in this thread is stupid enough to try and argue it's any different, so they don't. So have fun, the primaries will be so much more boring. This is way back now, but want to highlight how true this is. I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted at the doublethink tbh. Interestingly, it's not just here. The official line from Schumer appears to be "they control all three branches" while conveniently ignoring they're still unable to avoid a shutdown without Dem votes.If someone wanted to argue DACA is worth it and shutdown politics is justified now but wasn't in 2013, I could at least disagree while understanding the argument. Instead, the suspension of reason/active ignorance feels eerily Trumpian. It's even more worrisome to me when the supposed intellectual party are willing to fall for this nonsense tbh. People aren't ignoring it, rather that's precisely the point. You have a party that's unwilling to reach any form of compromise with opposing views, and have spent so long saying no to everyone that they don't even know how to agree with each other anymore. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can see what's happened and still shill for Republicans, they've just shown everyone the most complete and utter failure a leadership possibly can. You don't get to complain that the minority didn't just go along with everything you wanted. This is a government built on compromise. And your boys are bent on eliminating it and just running the show themselves. Surprise, it doesn't work. DACA has nothing to with funding the government. If you want DACA to remain (which I do), you need to win the elections necessary to do so. Democrats didn't. To make up for it, they're refusing to fund the government until DACA is restored and then complaining that the GOP never compromises when the party that actually won the elections says no. There's no way to look at it without it being literally "hostage tactics." Most of the posts here are shunning real arguments in here in favor of just GOP-bashing (and deservedly so), but it's still nothing more than the whataboutism that you guys constantly complain about.
Again, Trump blew up the bi-partisan deal, which included the DACA.
The end.
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On January 21 2018 09:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 09:37 mozoku wrote:On January 21 2018 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On January 21 2018 07:14 mozoku wrote:On January 20 2018 14:33 Introvert wrote:On January 20 2018 14:29 NewSunshine wrote:On January 20 2018 14:27 Introvert wrote:
I find it fascinating that in 2013 it was the minority party's fault but this time we all play dumb and pretend the filibuster doesn't exist. Especially funny since Schumer objected to the motion for unanimous consent to move to a vote.
Shows how intellectually bankrupt Democrats are on shutdown politics. Republicans blamed their own party last time. Are you really about to pretend that with Republicans in control of the House, the Senate, and the White House, the Democrats are to blame in any meaningful way? Your boys did this. Own it and hold them accountable. Yep! One party suggested a clean bill, the other ensured it required 60 votes then didn't grant them. I'm making actual arguments while everyone here is being intellectually dishonest to an amazing extent and making vague arguments about "controlling all branches." In previous years we would have heard about how the minority party has to make sacrifices and accept that they don't run it all. Now, that argument has disappeared. It has to be dishonesty, no one in this thread is stupid enough to try and argue it's any different, so they don't. So have fun, the primaries will be so much more boring. This is way back now, but want to highlight how true this is. I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted at the doublethink tbh. Interestingly, it's not just here. The official line from Schumer appears to be "they control all three branches" while conveniently ignoring they're still unable to avoid a shutdown without Dem votes.If someone wanted to argue DACA is worth it and shutdown politics is justified now but wasn't in 2013, I could at least disagree while understanding the argument. Instead, the suspension of reason/active ignorance feels eerily Trumpian. It's even more worrisome to me when the supposed intellectual party are willing to fall for this nonsense tbh. People aren't ignoring it, rather that's precisely the point. You have a party that's unwilling to reach any form of compromise with opposing views, and have spent so long saying no to everyone that they don't even know how to agree with each other anymore. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can see what's happened and still shill for Republicans, they've just shown everyone the most complete and utter failure a leadership possibly can. You don't get to complain that the minority didn't just go along with everything you wanted. This is a government built on compromise. And your boys are bent on eliminating it and just running the show themselves. Surprise, it doesn't work. DACA has nothing to with funding the government. If you want DACA to remain (which I do), you need to win the elections necessary to do so. Democrats didn't. To make up for it, they're refusing to fund the government until DACA is restored and then complaining that the GOP never compromises when the party that actually won the elections says no. There's no way to look at it without it being literally "hostage tactics." Most of the posts here are shunning real arguments in here in favor of just GOP-bashing (and deservedly so), but it's still nothing more than the whataboutism that you guys constantly complain about. Again, Trump blew up the bi-partisan deal, which included the DACA. The end.
The Republican senators that voted against the short term funding measure are the same senators that were working on the bi-partisan bill the Trump blew up. And this was after saying on TV, with them in the room, "that he would sign the bill they worked out." Immigration hardliners couldn't' let that happens, to they went to Trump and convinced him to blow up the bill. A clear case of some Republicans and the leaderships seeing that the Democrats might get a win and making sure that didn't happen. By shutting down the government.
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The Democrats weren't capable of doing anything unilaterally. They are the minority. If their vote is required, it's because the Republicans failed to come to an agreement even with themselves. You're choosing not to get this. Leadership isn't just winning an election. The Republicans forgot this. Now they find themselves in a tough spot, and instead of compromising with the Democrats, they played games and held CHIP funding over our heads. All the Democrats did was tell them to fuck off. The numbers don't lie. You don't get to say this is anyone's fault but the Republicans. Regardless of how much you dislike liberal policy, you should be extremely disappointed in your party's total ineffectuality. Nothing's stopping them except themselves.
As an aside, if you think the GOP bashing is justified, then leave it be. They didn't earn nuance with this stunt. Hold yourself and your party to higher standards.
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The dumbest part about all of this is that this isn't like when the GOP shut down the government in an effort to repeal the ACA. The democrats were opposed to that one. In this case, both the parties want to pass DACA and CHIP. But the leadership won't put them up for a vote and hasn't kept promises in the past. This is a leadership problem, not the whole Republican party. The leadership is letting Trump and the conservatives dictated what all of congress will do. They are a separate, co-equal branch, but the leadership wants to make Trump and the conservatives happy.
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DACA has nothing to with funding the government. If you want DACA to remain (which I do), you need to win the elections necessary to do so. Democrats didn't. To make up for it, they're refusing to fund the government until DACA is restored and then complaining that the GOP never compromises when the party that actually won the elections says no.
The Republicans are refusing to make a reasonable deal (lol) in order to fund government. They run it, it's their responsibility, and they're failing. Compromise is necessary, it's about f***ing time McTurtle and Trump realise that.
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On January 21 2018 09:54 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +
DACA has nothing to with funding the government. If you want DACA to remain (which I do), you need to win the elections necessary to do so. Democrats didn't. To make up for it, they're refusing to fund the government until DACA is restored and then complaining that the GOP never compromises when the party that actually won the elections says no.
The Republicans are refusing to make a reasonable deal (lol) in order to fund government. They run it, it's their responsibility, and they're failing. Compromise is necessary, it's about f***ing time McTurtle and Trump realise that.
But they gave them CHIP, their compromise was that they were willing to give healthcare to (somewhat) poor children.
/s
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On January 21 2018 08:22 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 07:14 mozoku wrote:On January 20 2018 14:33 Introvert wrote:On January 20 2018 14:29 NewSunshine wrote:On January 20 2018 14:27 Introvert wrote:
I find it fascinating that in 2013 it was the minority party's fault but this time we all play dumb and pretend the filibuster doesn't exist. Especially funny since Schumer objected to the motion for unanimous consent to move to a vote.
Shows how intellectually bankrupt Democrats are on shutdown politics. Republicans blamed their own party last time. Are you really about to pretend that with Republicans in control of the House, the Senate, and the White House, the Democrats are to blame in any meaningful way? Your boys did this. Own it and hold them accountable. Yep! One party suggested a clean bill, the other ensured it required 60 votes then didn't grant them. I'm making actual arguments while everyone here is being intellectually dishonest to an amazing extent and making vague arguments about "controlling all branches." In previous years we would have heard about how the minority party has to make sacrifices and accept that they don't run it all. Now, that argument has disappeared. It has to be dishonesty, no one in this thread is stupid enough to try and argue it's any different, so they don't. So have fun, the primaries will be so much more boring. This is way back now, but want to highlight how true this is. I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted at the doublethink tbh. Interestingly, it's not just here. The official line from Schumer appears to be "they control all three branches" while conveniently ignoring they're still unable to avoid a shutdown without Dem votes. If someone wanted to argue DACA is worth it and shutdown politics is justified now but wasn't in 2013, I could at least disagree while understanding the argument. Instead, the suspension of reason/active ignorance feels eerily Trumpian. It's even more worrisome to me when the supposed intellectual party are willing to fall for this nonsense tbh. And ... you prompt another wave of dishonest responses. Its Trumpian, like one party elected him and the other party elected to use his tactics.
Honest question, would you include mine among the "dishonest responses" you're referring to? I think I've been trying pretty hard to make good faith comments about this, but if people are going to assume I'm dishonest anyway I won't bother to put in the effort
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On January 21 2018 09:37 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On January 21 2018 07:14 mozoku wrote:On January 20 2018 14:33 Introvert wrote:On January 20 2018 14:29 NewSunshine wrote:On January 20 2018 14:27 Introvert wrote:
I find it fascinating that in 2013 it was the minority party's fault but this time we all play dumb and pretend the filibuster doesn't exist. Especially funny since Schumer objected to the motion for unanimous consent to move to a vote.
Shows how intellectually bankrupt Democrats are on shutdown politics. Republicans blamed their own party last time. Are you really about to pretend that with Republicans in control of the House, the Senate, and the White House, the Democrats are to blame in any meaningful way? Your boys did this. Own it and hold them accountable. Yep! One party suggested a clean bill, the other ensured it required 60 votes then didn't grant them. I'm making actual arguments while everyone here is being intellectually dishonest to an amazing extent and making vague arguments about "controlling all branches." In previous years we would have heard about how the minority party has to make sacrifices and accept that they don't run it all. Now, that argument has disappeared. It has to be dishonesty, no one in this thread is stupid enough to try and argue it's any different, so they don't. So have fun, the primaries will be so much more boring. This is way back now, but want to highlight how true this is. I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted at the doublethink tbh. Interestingly, it's not just here. The official line from Schumer appears to be "they control all three branches" while conveniently ignoring they're still unable to avoid a shutdown without Dem votes.If someone wanted to argue DACA is worth it and shutdown politics is justified now but wasn't in 2013, I could at least disagree while understanding the argument. Instead, the suspension of reason/active ignorance feels eerily Trumpian. It's even more worrisome to me when the supposed intellectual party are willing to fall for this nonsense tbh. People aren't ignoring it, rather that's precisely the point. You have a party that's unwilling to reach any form of compromise with opposing views, and have spent so long saying no to everyone that they don't even know how to agree with each other anymore. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can see what's happened and still shill for Republicans, they've just shown everyone the most complete and utter failure a leadership possibly can. You don't get to complain that the minority didn't just go along with everything you wanted. This is a government built on compromise. And your boys are bent on eliminating it and just running the show themselves. Surprise, it doesn't work. DACA has nothing to with funding the government. If you want DACA to remain (which I do), you need to win the elections necessary to do so. Democrats didn't. To make up for it, they're refusing to fund the government until DACA is restored and then complaining that the GOP never compromises when the party that actually won the elections says no. There's no way to look at it without it being literally "hostage tactics." Most of the posts here are shunning real arguments in here in favor of just GOP-bashing (and deservedly so), but it's still nothing more than the whataboutism that you guys constantly complain about.
Just as a sidenote, do you know how democracy works? Just out of interest. Let me remind you: not 100% of the US citizens are behind what republicans want to do. That's the reason they don't have 100% majority everywhere. In fact in terms of your president, the majority didn't actually want him as president in the first place, and it was out of their hands. He won because the US is one of the countries where some votes matter more than others.
The "well they are more so they can do what they want" is the dumbest argument i've heard today. The democrats won enough elections to have a say as well, they represent 40% or whatever of your fucking country.
It's called "opposition". Look it up. Very necessary, regardless of how much you think that republicans should be able to do whatever the fuck they want because they were better at gerrymandering.
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This pretty much sums up the problem.
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United States44439 Posts
US constitution was explicitly designed not to be a 'winner takes all and does what they fuck they want' unlike parliamentary systems with an uncodified constitution. The minority not letting the majority do whatever they want is a feature, not a bug.
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The telling part of this is that none of you want to explicitly state what exactly the Dems want the GOP to compromise on and just keep vaguely referring to what's on the table as "an unreasonable deal because the GOP never compromises!" It's like all of you forgot that the point of a funding bill is well... funding. There are were no poison pills in the resolution put up for vote last night. The GOP isn't doing "whatever it wants." It's literally just trying to pass a clean funding bill.
Could Trump and the GOP have agreed to a DACA deal and avoided this? Yes. Is Trump incompetent? Yes. Does that change the fact that a clean funding bill was put to vote that would have funded the government, and that bill was supported by nearly all Republicans and opposed by nearly all Democrats? No, it doesn't.
Whether or not Trump blew up a previous deal doesn't change the fact that the Democrats had agency in that vote to either accept a clean funding bill and keep the government running, or to reject it and shut down the government in an attempt to gain leverage on DACA negotiations. They chose the latter. There's really no argument to be made here.
Could you argue the GOP is at fault for no DACA? Sure. Could you argue the shutdown is justified this time? Sure. What you cannot argue is that the GOP caused the shutdown. That's factually false.
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There are were no poison pills in the resolution put up for vote last night.
Oh, that's interesting. Could you briefly point me to where the points are listed? Thanks.
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Chelsea Manning is totally a legit candidate, right?
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On January 21 2018 08:28 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 08:22 Danglars wrote:On January 21 2018 07:14 mozoku wrote:On January 20 2018 14:33 Introvert wrote:On January 20 2018 14:29 NewSunshine wrote:On January 20 2018 14:27 Introvert wrote:
I find it fascinating that in 2013 it was the minority party's fault but this time we all play dumb and pretend the filibuster doesn't exist. Especially funny since Schumer objected to the motion for unanimous consent to move to a vote.
Shows how intellectually bankrupt Democrats are on shutdown politics. Republicans blamed their own party last time. Are you really about to pretend that with Republicans in control of the House, the Senate, and the White House, the Democrats are to blame in any meaningful way? Your boys did this. Own it and hold them accountable. Yep! One party suggested a clean bill, the other ensured it required 60 votes then didn't grant them. I'm making actual arguments while everyone here is being intellectually dishonest to an amazing extent and making vague arguments about "controlling all branches." In previous years we would have heard about how the minority party has to make sacrifices and accept that they don't run it all. Now, that argument has disappeared. It has to be dishonesty, no one in this thread is stupid enough to try and argue it's any different, so they don't. So have fun, the primaries will be so much more boring. This is way back now, but want to highlight how true this is. I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted at the doublethink tbh. Interestingly, it's not just here. The official line from Schumer appears to be "they control all three branches" while conveniently ignoring they're still unable to avoid a shutdown without Dem votes. If someone wanted to argue DACA is worth it and shutdown politics is justified now but wasn't in 2013, I could at least disagree while understanding the argument. Instead, the suspension of reason/active ignorance feels eerily Trumpian. It's even more worrisome to me when the supposed intellectual party are willing to fall for this nonsense tbh. And ... you prompt another wave of dishonest responses. Its Trumpian, like one party elected him and the other party elected to use his tactics. Personally, I view responding to others' arguments with vague dismissals quoting the person they were arguing against rather than actual substantive arguments as pretty Trumpian myself. Surely you agree McConnell and Ryan and the GOP control every bill that goes to the floor, unlike the 2013 shutdown? And that there's currently a bill that could get a majority vote in the House and 60 votes in the Senate, but has not been let to the floor? They don't have a filibuster-proof majority, but saying "oh because of da filibuster dey don't have any more power!!" is asinine.
You’re right in a sense. That isn’t an argument and it doesn’t take the place of an argument. It’s an observation to the other two current conservative posters (damn three at once, amazing) of the spin several posters in this forum have brought and continue to re-spin. Kind of like when Trump spins the biggest tax bill, and spins again when questioned—you comment to the person next to you about the humorous moment and not speak a third time in argument to hear a third spin/lie/mischaracterization from Trump.
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EPT
