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On November 15 2017 06:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 05:39 mozoku wrote:On November 15 2017 04:49 dankobanana wrote:On November 15 2017 04:15 mozoku wrote:
Many of the world's problems can't be solved with money,
name one Education? We spend n times as much money per capita on education as any country in Asia, yet at least ~50% of people in high-paying technical roles at American tech/finance firms are Asian (at least half of those probably are immigrants). American teachers are terrible at teaching math in general, American culture makes kids believe that intelligence drives math and educational success (it doesn't), and American parents do a poor job of pushing their kids to study as much as they could ("my kid is a perfect and those grades are a lie"). You can't solve that with money. It takes attitude change. Similar story goes for healthcare. We pay more for comparable or worse outcomes relative to other countries. Throwing more money at the broken system isn't going to fix it. It needs well-crafted reform, not funds. There was a report on NPR this morning about China and US education. That the US wants all students to score well in math so, the US is studying the Chinese system. But China wants more high scoring students to also enjoy math and other subjects to avoid burn out, so they are studying the US system of education. The tech industry is a unique problem because they want coders and the H1B1 visa lets them get coders without all those pesky problems that of the coders understanding labor rights. But the US has more important labor needs, like nursing and nursing teachers. Retention is so bad in the nursing industry that they are having trouble finding nurses to teach in some states. So once the current population in West Virginia ages out, they just won’t have any more nurses in the state because they can’t train more. And accreditation doesn’t travel across state lines. So there are problems that you can’t just throw money at. The burn out in nursing has nothing to do with lack of money to teach them.
You sure the retention rate of nurses isn't partly because their pay is shit?
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nurse pay is pretty decent. start around 100, goes up to around 200k with specialization, experience and if you're good.
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Yeah, I am going to say outright that this is a problem that is solved by simply paying nurses more. Or treating them better....with higher salary and conditions.
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On November 15 2017 06:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Yeah, I am going to say outright that this is a problem that is solved by simply paying nurses more. Or treating them better....with higher salary and conditions.
The conditions are the problem. My neighbor has been a nurse for like 50 years and she says it’s the worst is had ever been. Our state has no problem with healthcare and the conditions for nurses are complete shit. The whole health care and elder care industry are slow moving car crashes.
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Norway28847 Posts
On November 15 2017 06:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
nurse pay is pretty decent. start around 100, goes up to around 200k with specialization, experience and if you're good.
That sounded incredibly high, so I checked it. My googling says 'In the United States the average annual salary for a Registered Nurse is currently $67,930' California is significantly higher though, I dunno if that's where you live.
I actually think that's fair enough too, though - $68k is not a low paying job.
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As the husband of a nurse I would say the pay is only the start of it, and likely not the biggest piece of the puzzle. more important would be reduction to 8 hour shifts (although there is evidence that continuity of care is better from a patient standpoint), regular assigned shift days, instead of the typical monthly assigned system. and more rights against patient harassment/abuse (the crap they put up with because "its just the job" is ridiculous). The rest of the issues with nursing especially in big hospitals revolve around the personalities of the people that work there and the industry in general.
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On November 15 2017 06:37 Trainrunnef wrote:
As the husband of a nurse I would say the pay is only the start of it, and likely not the biggest piece of the puzzle. more important would be reduction to 8 hour shifts (although there is evidence that continuity of care is better from a patient standpoint), regular assigned shift days, instead of the typical monthly assigned system. and more rights against patient harassment/abuse (the crap they put up with because "its just the job" is ridiculous). The rest of the issues with nursing especially in big hospitals revolve around the personalities of the people that work there and the industry in general.
Yeah, this is what I was going to say too. Nurses work insane hours/stress and it always feels like the entire thing is poorly managed. There should just be 3 shifts of nurses instead of this crazy shit they always end up working. In the end, you can say it is a cost thing. I imagine nurses work these total shit hours because the hospital is trying to fit a 3 person job into 2 people.
Also, in Oregon a nurse tends to start out at around 65k and works their way up to around 90k.
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On November 15 2017 06:29 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 06:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
nurse pay is pretty decent. start around 100, goes up to around 200k with specialization, experience and if you're good. That sounded incredibly high, so I checked it. My googling says 'In the United States the average annual salary for a Registered Nurse is currently $67,930' California is significantly higher though, I dunno if that's where you live. I actually think that's fair enough too, though - $68k is not a low paying job.
Not when you consider that 99% of the responsibility for your care is a nurse and not a doctor. Especially when you are in an intensive care unit. It gets better when you throw in union benefits (thank god for those), but not all hospitals are unionized so there's that.
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On November 15 2017 06:42 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 06:37 Trainrunnef wrote:
As the husband of a nurse I would say the pay is only the start of it, and likely not the biggest piece of the puzzle. more important would be reduction to 8 hour shifts (although there is evidence that continuity of care is better from a patient standpoint), regular assigned shift days, instead of the typical monthly assigned system. and more rights against patient harassment/abuse (the crap they put up with because "its just the job" is ridiculous). The rest of the issues with nursing especially in big hospitals revolve around the personalities of the people that work there and the industry in general. Yeah, this is what I was going to say too. Nurses work insane hours/stress and it always feels like the entire thing is poorly managed. There should just be 3 shifts of nurses instead of this crazy shit they always end up working. In the end, you can say it is a cost thing. I imagine nurses work these total shit hours because the hospital is trying to fit a 3 person job into 2 people. Also, in Oregon a nurse tends to start out at around 65k and works their way up to around 90k.
About the same pay in NY...
I think the shift timing is genuinely due to continuity of care. sure its cheaper to pay for the benefits of 2 people rather than 3 (since the hourly pay will generally be similar). but most medical problems tend to happen during the handoff from one doc or nurse to another. that is when the wrong limbs get amputated etc.
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On November 15 2017 06:29 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 06:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
nurse pay is pretty decent. start around 100, goes up to around 200k with specialization, experience and if you're good. That sounded incredibly high, so I checked it. My googling says 'In the United States the average annual salary for a Registered Nurse is currently $67,930' California is significantly higher though, I dunno if that's where you live. I actually think that's fair enough too, though - $68k is not a low paying job.
try looking for nurse practitioner, which requires graduate level education. looking up nurses generally probably includes stuff like CNA's and hospice, or RN's who all require bachelor's level.
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Nursing and teaching are the two professions that are desperately needed, but wildly dysfunctional due to people not valuing the humans that perform the job.
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nurse practitioner is basically a doctor that took a different path. they can open up their own practice and diagnose like any other doctor. its essentially the doctorate of nursing, not at all what day to day nursing is like.
on a separate note...
Washington (CNN)Republican senators will include a repeal of Obamacare's individual mandate in the revised version of the chamber's tax overhaul to be released by the Senate finance committee Tuesday afternoon, according to two GOP aides. The committee's Republicans were unanimous in their support for adding the repeal.
GOP senators have been initially receptive to the proposal, including Arizona Sen. John McCain, who cast a dramatic deciding late night vote that killed Republicans' efforts to repeal and replace Obamacare earlier this year.
"Yes," he said when he was asked if he is leaning toward supporting the mandate repeal as he came out of the policy lunch.
Sen. Rand Paul announced earlier Tuesday he planned to offer an amendment to the Senate tax bill to repeal the individual mandate that requires individuals to have health insurance or face a fine. President Donald Trump has also endorsed repealing the individual mandate as part of the tax bill.
Sen. Susan Collins, a Republican from Maine, told reporters on Tuesday afternoon she has concerns about repealing the individual mandate in the tax bill.
"I personally think that it complicates tax reform," she said.
Collins was also one of three Republicans who voted against the GOP senate bill to repeal the individual and employer mandate in July. That shell of a bill was intended to get the Senate and House to conference on a health care bill and did not pass the Senate.
I guess they couldn't help themselves.... didn't we just have 11 months of them trying to not do the skinny repeal, and now they are trying to force it in at the last second?
There's a right way and a wrong way... so many politicians these days are trafficking exclusively in the wrong way.
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On November 15 2017 06:56 Trainrunnef wrote:nurse practitioner is basically a doctor that took a different path. they can open up their own practice and diagnose like any other doctor. its essentially the doctorate of nursing, not at all what day to day nursing is like. on a separate note... Show nested quote +Washington (CNN)Republican senators will include a repeal of Obamacare's individual mandate in the revised version of the chamber's tax overhaul to be released by the Senate finance committee Tuesday afternoon, according to two GOP aides. The committee's Republicans were unanimous in their support for adding the repeal.
GOP senators have been initially receptive to the proposal, including Arizona Sen. John McCain, who cast a dramatic deciding late night vote that killed Republicans' efforts to repeal and replace Obamacare earlier this year.
"Yes," he said when he was asked if he is leaning toward supporting the mandate repeal as he came out of the policy lunch.
Sen. Rand Paul announced earlier Tuesday he planned to offer an amendment to the Senate tax bill to repeal the individual mandate that requires individuals to have health insurance or face a fine. President Donald Trump has also endorsed repealing the individual mandate as part of the tax bill.
Sen. Susan Collins, a Republican from Maine, told reporters on Tuesday afternoon she has concerns about repealing the individual mandate in the tax bill.
"I personally think that it complicates tax reform," she said.
Collins was also one of three Republicans who voted against the GOP senate bill to repeal the individual and employer mandate in July. That shell of a bill was intended to get the Senate and House to conference on a health care bill and did not pass the Senate. I guess they couldn't help themselves.... didn't we just have 11 months of them trying to not do the skinny repeal, and now they are trying to force it in at the last second? There's a right way and a wrong way... so many politicians these days are trafficking exclusively in the wrong way.
And this is still all being done as part of the budget adjustment thing right?
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They are dumb enough to pass it too. Just blow up healthcare and the budget while they are at it.
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On November 15 2017 06:54 Plansix wrote:
Nursing and teaching are the two professions that are desperately needed, but wildly dysfunctional due to people not valuing the humans that perform the job.
Part of that is lack of public education on what exactly a nurse does today. You say nurse and most people over 40 will picture what a CNA or LPN does not realizing that the field has shed certain non-technical responsibilities and gained new ones that require a higher level of understanding and education,
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On November 15 2017 06:59 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 06:56 Trainrunnef wrote:nurse practitioner is basically a doctor that took a different path. they can open up their own practice and diagnose like any other doctor. its essentially the doctorate of nursing, not at all what day to day nursing is like. on a separate note... Washington (CNN)Republican senators will include a repeal of Obamacare's individual mandate in the revised version of the chamber's tax overhaul to be released by the Senate finance committee Tuesday afternoon, according to two GOP aides. The committee's Republicans were unanimous in their support for adding the repeal.
GOP senators have been initially receptive to the proposal, including Arizona Sen. John McCain, who cast a dramatic deciding late night vote that killed Republicans' efforts to repeal and replace Obamacare earlier this year.
"Yes," he said when he was asked if he is leaning toward supporting the mandate repeal as he came out of the policy lunch.
Sen. Rand Paul announced earlier Tuesday he planned to offer an amendment to the Senate tax bill to repeal the individual mandate that requires individuals to have health insurance or face a fine. President Donald Trump has also endorsed repealing the individual mandate as part of the tax bill.
Sen. Susan Collins, a Republican from Maine, told reporters on Tuesday afternoon she has concerns about repealing the individual mandate in the tax bill.
"I personally think that it complicates tax reform," she said.
Collins was also one of three Republicans who voted against the GOP senate bill to repeal the individual and employer mandate in July. That shell of a bill was intended to get the Senate and House to conference on a health care bill and did not pass the Senate. I guess they couldn't help themselves.... didn't we just have 11 months of them trying to not do the skinny repeal, and now they are trying to force it in at the last second? There's a right way and a wrong way... so many politicians these days are trafficking exclusively in the wrong way. And this is still all being done as part of the budget adjustment thing right?
Yes. Back in the day the Supreme court ruled that the individual mandate was technically a tax so its all fair game.
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On November 15 2017 06:56 Trainrunnef wrote:nurse practitioner is basically a doctor that took a different path. they can open up their own practice and diagnose like any other doctor. its essentially the doctorate of nursing, not at all what day to day nursing is like. on a separate note... Show nested quote +Washington (CNN)Republican senators will include a repeal of Obamacare's individual mandate in the revised version of the chamber's tax overhaul to be released by the Senate finance committee Tuesday afternoon, according to two GOP aides. The committee's Republicans were unanimous in their support for adding the repeal.
GOP senators have been initially receptive to the proposal, including Arizona Sen. John McCain, who cast a dramatic deciding late night vote that killed Republicans' efforts to repeal and replace Obamacare earlier this year.
"Yes," he said when he was asked if he is leaning toward supporting the mandate repeal as he came out of the policy lunch.
Sen. Rand Paul announced earlier Tuesday he planned to offer an amendment to the Senate tax bill to repeal the individual mandate that requires individuals to have health insurance or face a fine. President Donald Trump has also endorsed repealing the individual mandate as part of the tax bill.
Sen. Susan Collins, a Republican from Maine, told reporters on Tuesday afternoon she has concerns about repealing the individual mandate in the tax bill.
"I personally think that it complicates tax reform," she said.
Collins was also one of three Republicans who voted against the GOP senate bill to repeal the individual and employer mandate in July. That shell of a bill was intended to get the Senate and House to conference on a health care bill and did not pass the Senate. I guess they couldn't help themselves.... didn't we just have 11 months of them trying to not do the skinny repeal, and now they are trying to force it in at the last second? There's a right way and a wrong way... so many politicians these days are trafficking exclusively in the wrong way.
So they just torpedo's their tax bill?
Because repealing the mandate is the same thing as repeal the entire thing. The entire healthcare sector will blow up instantly as everyone healthy cancels their insurance since they can't be denied when they get insurance after getting sick.
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On November 15 2017 06:56 Trainrunnef wrote:
nurse practitioner is basically a doctor that took a different path. they can open up their own practice and diagnose like any other doctor. its essentially the doctorate of nursing, not at all what day to day nursing is like.
IIRC, only about a dozen states allow NP's to solo practice, though the number may have risen in the meantime. Otherwise they act similar to PA's as a doctor's right hand, ops person or as a team lead.
The hours aren't great and nurses of all kinds are stuck with a lot of (oftentimes literally) shitty jobs. That's healthcare in general, and the rest of the medical staff are right in the trenches with them.
Also, 70k for a job with up to 90k requiring bachelor's degree isn't bad. When hitting the ceiling, might as well go and get the NP/PA certification - there are a lot of programs that allow experienced medical professions to get advanced degree/ certification, and many hospitals will gladly help pay for it.
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On November 15 2017 07:01 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 06:54 Plansix wrote:
Nursing and teaching are the two professions that are desperately needed, but wildly dysfunctional due to people not valuing the humans that perform the job. Part of that is lack of public education on what exactly a nurse does today. You say nurse and most people over 40 will picture what a CNA or LPN does not realizing that the field has shed certain non-technical responsibilities and gained new ones that require a higher level of understanding and education,
From what I hear a lot of places like rookie LPNs over rookie RNs or BSNs because they come in with a lot more practical experience so they know what they are doing earlier then the latter because they have more education but less actual practical experience.
The laws can be a bit weird with Nurse ranks, setting arbitrary educational barriers to perform certain tasks.
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On November 15 2017 07:17 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 07:01 Trainrunnef wrote:On November 15 2017 06:54 Plansix wrote:
Nursing and teaching are the two professions that are desperately needed, but wildly dysfunctional due to people not valuing the humans that perform the job. Part of that is lack of public education on what exactly a nurse does today. You say nurse and most people over 40 will picture what a CNA or LPN does not realizing that the field has shed certain non-technical responsibilities and gained new ones that require a higher level of understanding and education, From what I hear a lot of places like rookie LPNs over rookie RNs or BSNs because they come in with a lot more practical experience so they know what they are doing earlier then the latter because they have more education but less actual practical experience. The laws can be a bit weird with Nurse ranks, setting arbitrary educational barriers to perform certain tasks.
I think you mean experienced lpn over rn, which is true, but it also depends as certain states have pretty severe restrictions on what LPNs are allowed to do. in some they cant even administer medicine
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