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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 21 2014 21:50 GMT
#17841
On February 22 2014 01:51 nunez wrote:
morally inbred?

it's more than simple echo chamber effect. more like, the libertarian moral system is naive and incomplete. i actually think we need libertarianish rights and such. they are important. however, they are also limited both in terms of how good they are as rights(being unexamined products of both biology and history, naive property rights can enable rent seeking and exploitation. ), and also epistemicly limited in the way they ignore state of affairs, the actual condition of society. you know the 'right vs good' distinction in ethics, this is largely played out in libertarian thinking by extreme favoring of the right set of rules over concerns over how people are actually living.

we have both a welfare based, consequentialist morality as well as a rights (power) based system. gotta be flexible and respect the draw of each.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 21 2014 22:03 GMT
#17842
A special's being shown on cspan tonight at 8:00pm entitled "What's so great about America?"
not sure whether there's gonna be any interesting debate, or just a bunch of back-patting; but from the previews there might be something interesting to it.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-21 22:11:14
February 21 2014 22:10 GMT
#17843
On February 22 2014 06:35 oneofthem wrote:
http://qz.com/179920/the-ceo-of-exxon-loves-fracking-as-long-as-it-doesnt-spoil-his-view/

I'm not saying he is a good person, but that seems like an article whose sole purpose is to rile up people already of a certain political persuasion and confirm their beliefs (hence the popularity of the article). Also keep in mind that CEOs are doing a job and want to do it well, so of course they are going to try to maximize profits (and it's not just the oil industry cutting corners...). Personally I think your job can involve one thing and you can think something else when it comes to you personally. I think annuities are wastes of money but if my job involved selling them I would want to do a damned good job.

This isn't that much better than articles decrying Obama for going on vacation when X political crisis is occurring.
On February 22 2014 07:03 zlefin wrote:
A special's being shown on cspan tonight at 8:00pm entitled "What's so great about America?"
not sure whether there's gonna be any interesting debate, or just a bunch of back-patting; but from the previews there might be something interesting to it.

Yeah, from the title it seems like it could be anything from a total roast to a circlejerk.
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
February 21 2014 22:15 GMT
#17844
On February 21 2014 21:55 BallinWitStalin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2014 16:10 Danglars wrote:
On February 21 2014 12:37 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
As the movement to expand access to marijuana grows across the country, the Republican Party, with the exception of its kooky libertarian wing, has a bad case of reefer madness. Gov. Rick Perry, who's no stranger to moments of mental madness, equated marijuana use to murder, while Gov. Chris Christie has more or less said he’d prefer dead kids to stoned kids. During the 2012 election, Mitt Romney promised to "fight tooth and nail" against pro-marijuana legalization.

While national polling shows more than 55% of Americans support pot legalization, Republicans remains strongly opposed, and in fact, more than two-thirds of Republicans voted against legalization in Colorado and Washington.

With Republicans likely to remain opposed, marijuana could emerge as a big cultural wedge issue winner in both the 2014 and 2016 elections. The GOP holds a majority in the House of Congress and is threatening in the Senate come November, but in state elections, marijuana on the ballot has big potential to harm Republican candidates. In January, the Florida Supreme Court approved a proposed constitutional amendment that would legalize medical marijuana, assuring that the initiative will appear on the state’s November ballot. The referendum on pot may, in turn, determine the winner of the state’s gubernatorial race. According to the most recent Quinnipiac University poll, 70 percent of Floridians favor medical marijuana, which augers well for Democratic challenger Charlie Christ, given Gov. Rick Scott opposes the bill. There is considerable evidence that vote turnout rises when pot is on the ballot, especially for young voters who would naturally favor a candidate who supports it.

Nate Cohn, a columnist for theNew Republic, writes that assuming Hillary Clinton would be the nominee, she “would be well-positioned to deploy the issue. Her strength among older voters and women mitigates the risk that she would lose very much support, while legalization could help Clinton with the young, independent, and male voters who could clinch her primary or general election victory.”

Democrats are already winning ideological clashes in this country’s cultural war. On issues from same-sex marriage to the death penalty; from abortion to gun control; poll after poll shows a majority of Americans lean left. Pot legalization is shaping up to be another issue Democrats could apply a blowtorch to Republicans in blue and purple states, for the GOP is handcuffed when it comes to dealing intelligently on the war on drugs.


Source
Really, StealthBlue? Really? AlterNet now? And to think not so long ago Kwark was up in arms on ZeroHedge?

News at 11: Democrats say that Democrats are already winning ideological clashes in the country's cultural war. Democrats think Rick Perry has moments of "mental madness" and Christie has issues he chooses "dead kids" on. What reporting! Well, on that note, here's some Wall Street Journal (whose editorial pages are brought to you more and more by Crony Capitalism, Inc. and the DC Chamber of Commerce):
The FCC Wades Into the Newsroom
News organizations often disagree about what Americans need to know. MSNBC, for example, apparently believes that traffic in Fort Lee, N.J., is the crisis of our time. Fox News, on the other hand, chooses to cover the September 2012 attacks on the U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi more heavily than other networks. The American people, for their part, disagree about what they want to watch.

But everyone should agree on this: The government has no place pressuring media organizations into covering certain stories.

Unfortunately, the Federal Communications Commission, where I am a commissioner, does not agree. Last May the FCC proposed an initiative to thrust the federal government into newsrooms across the country. With its "Multi-Market Study of Critical Information Needs," or CIN, the agency plans to send researchers to grill reporters, editors and station owners about how they decide which stories to run. A field test in Columbia, S.C., is scheduled to begin this spring.

The purpose of the CIN, according to the FCC, is to ferret out information from television and radio broadcasters about "the process by which stories are selected" and how often stations cover "critical information needs," along with "perceived station bias" and "perceived responsiveness to underserved populations."


Proper role of government, investigating or studying private businesses and their compliance with whatever the FCC considers critical information. Further on in the article, it puts out one question that they'll seek answer to: "Have you ever suggested coverage of what you consider a story with critical information for your customers that was rejected by management?" Government out of our bedrooms, into our newsrooms?


Am I the only one seeing hypocrisy in Danglars accusing Stealthblue of posting from biased news sources?

Danglars, you're pretty much the only dude who I completely ignore because there's so much bias in everything you post that I find it too tedious and tiring to actually try to get meaningful information from it. Tone back the indignation, stealthBlue is basically the only dude keeping a lot of people interested in this thread.


Hypocrisy or no, (hint: "yes"), he's actually right. Alternet is clearly not a serious source, as is clear from even a cursory reading. A lot of the problem with our political discourse, particularly from right-wing sources, but also from left-wing ones, is when people intentionally obscure context, as is clear from "Gov. Rick Perry... equated marijuana use to murder, while Gov. Chris Christie has more or less said he’d prefer dead kids to stoned kids."

Just saying, the left needs to keep up standards in order to have moral high-ground.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 21 2014 22:29 GMT
#17845
On February 22 2014 07:15 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2014 21:55 BallinWitStalin wrote:
On February 21 2014 16:10 Danglars wrote:
On February 21 2014 12:37 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
As the movement to expand access to marijuana grows across the country, the Republican Party, with the exception of its kooky libertarian wing, has a bad case of reefer madness. Gov. Rick Perry, who's no stranger to moments of mental madness, equated marijuana use to murder, while Gov. Chris Christie has more or less said he’d prefer dead kids to stoned kids. During the 2012 election, Mitt Romney promised to "fight tooth and nail" against pro-marijuana legalization.

While national polling shows more than 55% of Americans support pot legalization, Republicans remains strongly opposed, and in fact, more than two-thirds of Republicans voted against legalization in Colorado and Washington.

With Republicans likely to remain opposed, marijuana could emerge as a big cultural wedge issue winner in both the 2014 and 2016 elections. The GOP holds a majority in the House of Congress and is threatening in the Senate come November, but in state elections, marijuana on the ballot has big potential to harm Republican candidates. In January, the Florida Supreme Court approved a proposed constitutional amendment that would legalize medical marijuana, assuring that the initiative will appear on the state’s November ballot. The referendum on pot may, in turn, determine the winner of the state’s gubernatorial race. According to the most recent Quinnipiac University poll, 70 percent of Floridians favor medical marijuana, which augers well for Democratic challenger Charlie Christ, given Gov. Rick Scott opposes the bill. There is considerable evidence that vote turnout rises when pot is on the ballot, especially for young voters who would naturally favor a candidate who supports it.

Nate Cohn, a columnist for theNew Republic, writes that assuming Hillary Clinton would be the nominee, she “would be well-positioned to deploy the issue. Her strength among older voters and women mitigates the risk that she would lose very much support, while legalization could help Clinton with the young, independent, and male voters who could clinch her primary or general election victory.”

Democrats are already winning ideological clashes in this country’s cultural war. On issues from same-sex marriage to the death penalty; from abortion to gun control; poll after poll shows a majority of Americans lean left. Pot legalization is shaping up to be another issue Democrats could apply a blowtorch to Republicans in blue and purple states, for the GOP is handcuffed when it comes to dealing intelligently on the war on drugs.


Source
Really, StealthBlue? Really? AlterNet now? And to think not so long ago Kwark was up in arms on ZeroHedge?

News at 11: Democrats say that Democrats are already winning ideological clashes in the country's cultural war. Democrats think Rick Perry has moments of "mental madness" and Christie has issues he chooses "dead kids" on. What reporting! Well, on that note, here's some Wall Street Journal (whose editorial pages are brought to you more and more by Crony Capitalism, Inc. and the DC Chamber of Commerce):
The FCC Wades Into the Newsroom
News organizations often disagree about what Americans need to know. MSNBC, for example, apparently believes that traffic in Fort Lee, N.J., is the crisis of our time. Fox News, on the other hand, chooses to cover the September 2012 attacks on the U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi more heavily than other networks. The American people, for their part, disagree about what they want to watch.

But everyone should agree on this: The government has no place pressuring media organizations into covering certain stories.

Unfortunately, the Federal Communications Commission, where I am a commissioner, does not agree. Last May the FCC proposed an initiative to thrust the federal government into newsrooms across the country. With its "Multi-Market Study of Critical Information Needs," or CIN, the agency plans to send researchers to grill reporters, editors and station owners about how they decide which stories to run. A field test in Columbia, S.C., is scheduled to begin this spring.

The purpose of the CIN, according to the FCC, is to ferret out information from television and radio broadcasters about "the process by which stories are selected" and how often stations cover "critical information needs," along with "perceived station bias" and "perceived responsiveness to underserved populations."


Proper role of government, investigating or studying private businesses and their compliance with whatever the FCC considers critical information. Further on in the article, it puts out one question that they'll seek answer to: "Have you ever suggested coverage of what you consider a story with critical information for your customers that was rejected by management?" Government out of our bedrooms, into our newsrooms?


Am I the only one seeing hypocrisy in Danglars accusing Stealthblue of posting from biased news sources?

Danglars, you're pretty much the only dude who I completely ignore because there's so much bias in everything you post that I find it too tedious and tiring to actually try to get meaningful information from it. Tone back the indignation, stealthBlue is basically the only dude keeping a lot of people interested in this thread.


Hypocrisy or no, (hint: "yes"), he's actually right. Alternet is clearly not a serious source, as is clear from even a cursory reading. A lot of the problem with our political discourse, particularly from right-wing sources, but also from left-wing ones, is when people intentionally obscure context, as is clear from "Gov. Rick Perry... equated marijuana use to murder, while Gov. Chris Christie has more or less said he’d prefer dead kids to stoned kids."

Just saying, the left needs to keep up standards in order to have moral high-ground.

I fail to see where the hypocrisy is. I don't see Danglars throwing up a bunch of stories from right-wing propaganda sites like "some" posters in this thread do with left-wing propaganda sites. Does he express an opinion? Sure. What the fuck is this thread for if not for expressing opinions?
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 21 2014 23:45 GMT
#17846
Personally I'd prefer it be for thoughtful and serious debate about how to solve the problems facing our country.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
February 21 2014 23:48 GMT
#17847
On February 22 2014 08:45 zlefin wrote:
Personally I'd prefer it be for thoughtful and serious debate about how to solve the problems facing our country.

The fuck does that have to do with politics?
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 21 2014 23:49 GMT
#17848
On February 22 2014 08:45 zlefin wrote:
Personally I'd prefer it be for thoughtful and serious debate about how to solve the problems facing our country.

Okay, I've been meaning to ask this for a while: how old are you? I'm guessing like 15. Even your posts still have spots.
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
February 21 2014 23:52 GMT
#17849
Well, a quick scan through his post history in this thread shows citations of Breitbart News and the Daily Caller, neither of which is exactly a paragon of good journalism.

I mean.... seriously?
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government

That said, the thread is full of ideologues, and I by no means intend to single Danglars out. Just one centrist's observation.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 21 2014 23:55 GMT
#17850
On February 22 2014 08:52 Yoav wrote:
Well, a quick scan through his post history in this thread shows citations of Breitbart News and the Daily Caller, neither of which is exactly a paragon of good journalism.

I mean.... seriously?
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government

That said, the thread is full of ideologues, and I by no means intend to single Danglars out. Just one centrist's observation.

Yeah, but he doesn't robo-post that shit like StealthBlue does.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
February 22 2014 00:19 GMT
#17851
On February 22 2014 08:55 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2014 08:52 Yoav wrote:
Well, a quick scan through his post history in this thread shows citations of Breitbart News and the Daily Caller, neither of which is exactly a paragon of good journalism.

I mean.... seriously?
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government

That said, the thread is full of ideologues, and I by no means intend to single Danglars out. Just one centrist's observation.

Yeah, but he doesn't robo-post that shit like StealthBlue does.

... so he consciously links to dubious news sites? Is that supposed to be any better?
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 22 2014 00:29 GMT
#17852
On February 22 2014 08:49 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2014 08:45 zlefin wrote:
Personally I'd prefer it be for thoughtful and serious debate about how to solve the problems facing our country.

Okay, I've been meaning to ask this for a while: how old are you? I'm guessing like 15. Even your posts still have spots.


I'm not going to give my age; and i'm not sure what you mean by spots.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 22 2014 00:33 GMT
#17853
On February 22 2014 09:19 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2014 08:55 xDaunt wrote:
On February 22 2014 08:52 Yoav wrote:
Well, a quick scan through his post history in this thread shows citations of Breitbart News and the Daily Caller, neither of which is exactly a paragon of good journalism.

I mean.... seriously?
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government

That said, the thread is full of ideologues, and I by no means intend to single Danglars out. Just one centrist's observation.

Yeah, but he doesn't robo-post that shit like StealthBlue does.

... so he consciously links to dubious news sites? Is that supposed to be any better?

I can't think offhand how he's used those sources, but he certainly doesn't post conservative talking points verbatim 3-5 times per day. So yes, it is far better.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 22 2014 01:03 GMT
#17854
On February 22 2014 07:10 Chocolate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2014 06:35 oneofthem wrote:
http://qz.com/179920/the-ceo-of-exxon-loves-fracking-as-long-as-it-doesnt-spoil-his-view/

I'm not saying he is a good person, but that seems like an article whose sole purpose is to rile up people already of a certain political persuasion and confirm their beliefs (hence the popularity of the article). Also keep in mind that CEOs are doing a job and want to do it well, so of course they are going to try to maximize profits (and it's not just the oil industry cutting corners...). Personally I think your job can involve one thing and you can think something else when it comes to you personally. I think annuities are wastes of money but if my job involved selling them I would want to do a damned good job.

This isn't that much better than articles decrying Obama for going on vacation when X political crisis is occurring.
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2014 07:03 zlefin wrote:
A special's being shown on cspan tonight at 8:00pm entitled "What's so great about America?"
not sure whether there's gonna be any interesting debate, or just a bunch of back-patting; but from the previews there might be something interesting to it.

Yeah, from the title it seems like it could be anything from a total roast to a circlejerk.


Contrary to popular opinion it should bother you if your job is to do something you think is morally suspect or even merely stupid.

If your job is sellinh annuities and you think they are garbage then something is wrong.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 22 2014 01:08 GMT
#17855
Bill Ayers vs Dinesh D'Souza is apparently who's doing this debate being shown on cspan.
Oh god this is gonna be, hmm, something, i'm not sure which adjective is appropriate.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-22 01:38:31
February 22 2014 01:37 GMT
#17856
Interesting.

After this guys done ^^
But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
February 22 2014 01:53 GMT
#17857
He butchered that "Life of Brian" quote.
But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 22 2014 02:18 GMT
#17858
why is anyone interested in what d'souza has to say i have no idea. then again we have people like sarah palin running around
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8744 Posts
February 22 2014 02:26 GMT
#17859
On February 22 2014 11:18 oneofthem wrote:
why is anyone interested in what d'souza has to say i have no idea. then again we have people like sarah palin running around


he says what people want to hear. about as easy as that I guess.
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
February 22 2014 02:29 GMT
#17860
On February 22 2014 11:18 oneofthem wrote:
why is anyone interested in what d'souza has to say i have no idea. then again we have people like sarah palin running around


I can't wait for D'Souza to praise america for being anti-anti-colonialist, what with our being a colony that rebelled violently and shot its way out of being a colony. Or how being pro America requires that you not adopt an anti-colonialist mindset.

I also hope he extolls our fervent religiousity shortly after he mentions how he got kicked out of running a religious school for his adultery.
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
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