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On September 07 2017 23:27 kollin wrote:
Toxic masculinity does not just involve trying to impress women too. When a man blows his brains out because he didn't feel like he could talk about the problems afflicting him, hes a victim of toxic masculinity.
Keep asking yourself why he couldn't talk about those problems and theres probably a root cause that somehow flows back to something like: society thinks a man is more impressive to a woman if he has no problems.
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United States42008 Posts
The idea that children need a mother's touch is a good place to start. It used to default to the other way around, the man as the higher income individual and the more positive role model used to be viewed as the primary caregiver. Then the Victorian middle classes came along and decided that women were delicate flowers made of feelings and maternal instincts and then this bitch had her kids taken away by her ex-husband so she decided that from now on the wife would always get the kids because fuck you.
That idea is repeated in books, films, music, schools, and the world around us and it is reinforced until men are expected to "babysit" their own children when the mother isn't around and women who don't want to be mothers have basically failed at being a woman. It's all bullshit in the end, a stay at home dad isn't any less a man and a woman who wants a career over a family isn't any less a woman. The toxic part is that these ideas get internalized and people fuck over their lives trying to conform to some nonsense that is in fundamental conflict with who they are.
It's somewhat comparable to the shit we used to do to gay teenagers in that way. Telling them that they're wrong and broken because they think sucking a dick might be more fun than getting laid.
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On September 07 2017 23:28 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 23:23 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2017 23:19 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2017 23:12 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 23:09 Doodsmack wrote:On September 07 2017 23:01 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 22:55 kollin wrote:
The problem's mainly semantic I think, because some people read 'toxic masculinity' and presume that it means all masculinity is toxic, whereas others read it and think it just means to highlight the parts of masculinity that are toxic. The problem exists that overly stereotypical masculine behaviour clearly is a result of sexual selection over how ever many generations, along with the lesson most people learn in school about people who are competitive and people who are not. Fair enough it results in stupid situations like the "man up" problem. On the other hand what should be obviously the same thing but reflected in women, which to me has the same genesis has been flipped to be a result of men. Sex sells so women starve them selves therefor its a result of toxic masculinity is a flawed argument in a lot of ways and transfers responsibilty from women to an invisible oppressor in much the same way that a male equivalent should realistically be transferred to what ultimately probably comes down to what they think will impress women in the long run. Instead it's the patriarchy. See there you gave some reasoning you had not previously stated. So you say that women do things they think will impress men, and that is the root cause of things like anorexia. Now if women are doing these things to impress men, how do you think the power structure of society plays into things? The fact that we have a male dominated society must have an impact on how often and how pressured women feel to impress men, yes? Also consider how rabidly men consume products and advertisements that use sex to sell. Has male dominated culture been influenced in any way, in your opinion, by the overwhelming biological urge to reproduce? And if so, could it be said that in some small way, women also have a part in this? And if so, could you not see the problem I have with this sort of argument, as to an outsider such as myself they seem to cancel each other out, and society is left with toxic stupidity more then anything. Societal gender roles are absolutely to be blamed on both sexes. Hell, these days you'll probably find more rape apologists in a room of middle aged women than a room full of middle aged men. It's not about casting blame, it's about asking the question "where do our ideas of what it means to be a man/woman come from and how do they impact us?" I don’t know how many times we are going to have to say “its not about blame”. But we might need to start every post about toxic masculinity with “its not about blaming men.” You might want to send an email to all of the journalists who work for The Guardian, and let them know this 
There is no easy solution. This is the fight. If this discussion was easy, we would have solved these problems long ago. Even starting off the discussion with “it is often mischaracterized as an attack on men” did nothing to dissuade people from questioning if it was an attack on men.
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On September 07 2017 23:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 23:28 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 07 2017 23:23 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2017 23:19 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2017 23:12 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 23:09 Doodsmack wrote:On September 07 2017 23:01 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 22:55 kollin wrote:
The problem's mainly semantic I think, because some people read 'toxic masculinity' and presume that it means all masculinity is toxic, whereas others read it and think it just means to highlight the parts of masculinity that are toxic. The problem exists that overly stereotypical masculine behaviour clearly is a result of sexual selection over how ever many generations, along with the lesson most people learn in school about people who are competitive and people who are not. Fair enough it results in stupid situations like the "man up" problem. On the other hand what should be obviously the same thing but reflected in women, which to me has the same genesis has been flipped to be a result of men. Sex sells so women starve them selves therefor its a result of toxic masculinity is a flawed argument in a lot of ways and transfers responsibilty from women to an invisible oppressor in much the same way that a male equivalent should realistically be transferred to what ultimately probably comes down to what they think will impress women in the long run. Instead it's the patriarchy. See there you gave some reasoning you had not previously stated. So you say that women do things they think will impress men, and that is the root cause of things like anorexia. Now if women are doing these things to impress men, how do you think the power structure of society plays into things? The fact that we have a male dominated society must have an impact on how often and how pressured women feel to impress men, yes? Also consider how rabidly men consume products and advertisements that use sex to sell. Has male dominated culture been influenced in any way, in your opinion, by the overwhelming biological urge to reproduce? And if so, could it be said that in some small way, women also have a part in this? And if so, could you not see the problem I have with this sort of argument, as to an outsider such as myself they seem to cancel each other out, and society is left with toxic stupidity more then anything. Societal gender roles are absolutely to be blamed on both sexes. Hell, these days you'll probably find more rape apologists in a room of middle aged women than a room full of middle aged men. It's not about casting blame, it's about asking the question "where do our ideas of what it means to be a man/woman come from and how do they impact us?" I don’t know how many times we are going to have to say “its not about blame”. But we might need to start every post about toxic masculinity with “its not about blaming men.” You might want to send an email to all of the journalists who work for The Guardian, and let them know this There is no easy solution. This is the fight. If this discussion was easy, we would have solved these problems long ago. Even starting off the discussion with “it is often mischaracterized as an attack on men” did nothing to dissuade people from questioning if it was an attack on men.
Not really, it was more like a group of people consistently moved goal posts before deliberately misinterpreting posts as righteous male indignation.
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United States42008 Posts
On September 07 2017 23:28 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 23:27 kollin wrote:
Toxic masculinity does not just involve trying to impress women too. When a man blows his brains out because he didn't feel like he could talk about the problems afflicting him, hes a victim of toxic masculinity. Keep asking yourself why he couldn't talk about those problems and theres probably a root cause that somehow flows back to something like: society thinks a man is more impressive to a woman if he has no problems.
You're agreeing with him, although I don't know that you both realize it.
It's unlikely that at any time a woman told him to shut up about his feelings. And it's probably unlikely that a man did either, in my experience good friends don't tell their bros to bottle that shit up (outside of the military?). And yet somehow the idea stuck that if he talked about the shit he was going through then he was weak.
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On September 07 2017 23:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 23:28 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 23:27 kollin wrote:
Toxic masculinity does not just involve trying to impress women too. When a man blows his brains out because he didn't feel like he could talk about the problems afflicting him, hes a victim of toxic masculinity. Keep asking yourself why he couldn't talk about those problems and theres probably a root cause that somehow flows back to something like: society thinks a man is more impressive to a woman if he has no problems. You're agreeing with him, although I don't know that you both realize it. It's unlikely that at any time a woman told him to shut up about his feelings. And it's probably unlikely that a man did either, in my experience good friends don't tell their bros to bottle that shit up (outside of the military?). And yet somehow the idea stuck that if he talked about the shit he was going through then he was weak.
To a degree I am. Really think about what I wrote though lol. It's pretty obvious.
I'll say it again though, society isn't just composed of men, no matter how much the guardian writes about it.
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On September 07 2017 23:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 23:28 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 07 2017 23:23 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2017 23:19 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2017 23:12 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 23:09 Doodsmack wrote:On September 07 2017 23:01 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 22:55 kollin wrote:
The problem's mainly semantic I think, because some people read 'toxic masculinity' and presume that it means all masculinity is toxic, whereas others read it and think it just means to highlight the parts of masculinity that are toxic. The problem exists that overly stereotypical masculine behaviour clearly is a result of sexual selection over how ever many generations, along with the lesson most people learn in school about people who are competitive and people who are not. Fair enough it results in stupid situations like the "man up" problem. On the other hand what should be obviously the same thing but reflected in women, which to me has the same genesis has been flipped to be a result of men. Sex sells so women starve them selves therefor its a result of toxic masculinity is a flawed argument in a lot of ways and transfers responsibilty from women to an invisible oppressor in much the same way that a male equivalent should realistically be transferred to what ultimately probably comes down to what they think will impress women in the long run. Instead it's the patriarchy. See there you gave some reasoning you had not previously stated. So you say that women do things they think will impress men, and that is the root cause of things like anorexia. Now if women are doing these things to impress men, how do you think the power structure of society plays into things? The fact that we have a male dominated society must have an impact on how often and how pressured women feel to impress men, yes? Also consider how rabidly men consume products and advertisements that use sex to sell. Has male dominated culture been influenced in any way, in your opinion, by the overwhelming biological urge to reproduce? And if so, could it be said that in some small way, women also have a part in this? And if so, could you not see the problem I have with this sort of argument, as to an outsider such as myself they seem to cancel each other out, and society is left with toxic stupidity more then anything. Societal gender roles are absolutely to be blamed on both sexes. Hell, these days you'll probably find more rape apologists in a room of middle aged women than a room full of middle aged men. It's not about casting blame, it's about asking the question "where do our ideas of what it means to be a man/woman come from and how do they impact us?" I don’t know how many times we are going to have to say “its not about blame”. But we might need to start every post about toxic masculinity with “its not about blaming men.” You might want to send an email to all of the journalists who work for The Guardian, and let them know this There is no easy solution. This is the fight. If this discussion was easy, we would have solved these problems long ago. Even starting off the discussion with “it is often mischaracterized as an attack on men” did nothing to dissuade people from questioning if it was an attack on men.
Yeah I mean it works both ways.
Its often mischaracterized as an attack on men, when in fact its an attack on society.
However, its also often used as an attack on men, which feeds the mischaracterization in a vicious circle.
Meanwhile the problem goes unsolved.
Its almost as if using better language would work better. But then, that's the same point I've been making about various issues on this thread.
There's no interest in using better language, though, because it doesn't get views, likes, controversy and headlines. And so the problems go on and on, completely unsolved.
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I would just like to point out that up to 25% of those suffering from anorexia are males. That it has been described as early as back in 1200, that sufferers generally disregard how others perceive them, and that it is a coping mechanism more than anything else.
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On September 07 2017 23:36 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 23:34 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2017 23:28 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 23:27 kollin wrote:
Toxic masculinity does not just involve trying to impress women too. When a man blows his brains out because he didn't feel like he could talk about the problems afflicting him, hes a victim of toxic masculinity. Keep asking yourself why he couldn't talk about those problems and theres probably a root cause that somehow flows back to something like: society thinks a man is more impressive to a woman if he has no problems. You're agreeing with him, although I don't know that you both realize it. It's unlikely that at any time a woman told him to shut up about his feelings. And it's probably unlikely that a man did either, in my experience good friends don't tell their bros to bottle that shit up (outside of the military?). And yet somehow the idea stuck that if he talked about the shit he was going through then he was weak. To a degree I am. Really think about what I wrote though lol. It's pretty obvious. I'll say it again though, society isn't just composed of men, no matter how much the guardian writes about it.
It's not men that are being blamed though, it's a structure of power within society.
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I guess that's my toxic masculinity shining through, opressing a group of women even more by ignoring the plight of starving men.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On September 07 2017 23:40 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 23:36 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 23:34 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2017 23:28 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 23:27 kollin wrote:
Toxic masculinity does not just involve trying to impress women too. When a man blows his brains out because he didn't feel like he could talk about the problems afflicting him, hes a victim of toxic masculinity. Keep asking yourself why he couldn't talk about those problems and theres probably a root cause that somehow flows back to something like: society thinks a man is more impressive to a woman if he has no problems. You're agreeing with him, although I don't know that you both realize it. It's unlikely that at any time a woman told him to shut up about his feelings. And it's probably unlikely that a man did either, in my experience good friends don't tell their bros to bottle that shit up (outside of the military?). And yet somehow the idea stuck that if he talked about the shit he was going through then he was weak. To a degree I am. Really think about what I wrote though lol. It's pretty obvious. I'll say it again though, society isn't just composed of men, no matter how much the guardian writes about it. It's not men that are being blamed though, it's a structure of power within society.
That seriously depends on where you look. Also part of the reason I call it stupidity, as a famous sjw once said, words have meaning.
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United States42008 Posts
On September 07 2017 23:36 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 23:34 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2017 23:28 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 23:27 kollin wrote:
Toxic masculinity does not just involve trying to impress women too. When a man blows his brains out because he didn't feel like he could talk about the problems afflicting him, hes a victim of toxic masculinity. Keep asking yourself why he couldn't talk about those problems and theres probably a root cause that somehow flows back to something like: society thinks a man is more impressive to a woman if he has no problems. You're agreeing with him, although I don't know that you both realize it. It's unlikely that at any time a woman told him to shut up about his feelings. And it's probably unlikely that a man did either, in my experience good friends don't tell their bros to bottle that shit up (outside of the military?). And yet somehow the idea stuck that if he talked about the shit he was going through then he was weak. To a degree I am. Really think about what I wrote though lol. It's pretty obvious. I'll say it again though, society isn't just composed of men, no matter how much the guardian writes about it.
We'll never get this argument off the ground unless we can find someone here who wants to defend what you're arguing against. :p
So far we have you arguing against the Guardian on one side and people saying that what you're arguing against is missing the point and explaining what they think the point is, which is pretty close to what you think, on the other side.
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On September 07 2017 23:36 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 23:34 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2017 23:28 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 23:27 kollin wrote:
Toxic masculinity does not just involve trying to impress women too. When a man blows his brains out because he didn't feel like he could talk about the problems afflicting him, hes a victim of toxic masculinity. Keep asking yourself why he couldn't talk about those problems and theres probably a root cause that somehow flows back to something like: society thinks a man is more impressive to a woman if he has no problems. You're agreeing with him, although I don't know that you both realize it. It's unlikely that at any time a woman told him to shut up about his feelings. And it's probably unlikely that a man did either, in my experience good friends don't tell their bros to bottle that shit up (outside of the military?). And yet somehow the idea stuck that if he talked about the shit he was going through then he was weak. To a degree I am. Really think about what I wrote though lol. It's pretty obvious. I'll say it again though, society isn't just composed of men, no matter how much the guardian writes about it.
I just don’t see a problem with a publication writing about an issue they feel is important. There are a lot of publications out there in the world.
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On September 07 2017 23:24 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 23:18 Doodsmack wrote:On September 07 2017 23:12 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 23:09 Doodsmack wrote:On September 07 2017 23:01 bo1b wrote:On September 07 2017 22:55 kollin wrote:
The problem's mainly semantic I think, because some people read 'toxic masculinity' and presume that it means all masculinity is toxic, whereas others read it and think it just means to highlight the parts of masculinity that are toxic. The problem exists that overly stereotypical masculine behaviour clearly is a result of sexual selection over how ever many generations, along with the lesson most people learn in school about people who are competitive and people who are not. Fair enough it results in stupid situations like the "man up" problem. On the other hand what should be obviously the same thing but reflected in women, which to me has the same genesis has been flipped to be a result of men. Sex sells so women starve them selves therefor its a result of toxic masculinity is a flawed argument in a lot of ways and transfers responsibilty from women to an invisible oppressor in much the same way that a male equivalent should realistically be transferred to what ultimately probably comes down to what they think will impress women in the long run. Instead it's the patriarchy. See there you gave some reasoning you had not previously stated. So you say that women do things they think will impress men, and that is the root cause of things like anorexia. Now if women are doing these things to impress men, how do you think the power structure of society plays into things? The fact that we have a male dominated society must have an impact on how often and how pressured women feel to impress men, yes? Also consider how rabidly men consume products and advertisements that use sex to sell. Has male dominated culture been influenced in any way, in your opinion, by the overwhelming biological urge to reproduce? And if so, could it be said that in some small way, women also have a part in this? And if so, could you not see the problem I have with this sort of argument, as to an outsider such as myself they seem to cancel each other out, and society is left with toxic stupidity more then anything. Okay we can agree that both women and men have a contribution - the question is to what degree. Here you say women play a part "in some small way". Does that mean men play a part in a much larger way - even if male dominated society, as you say, is a product of biology and evolution? You seem to be admitting that society being male dominated WILL have an effect on women in this regard, but just excusing the fact that society is male dominated. But that does not lead to the effect men and women have "canceling each other out" - quite the opposite. I actually expect that society will be dominated by one gender or another so long as we are not perfect machines sailing through the universe. I also expect that the next few generations will be female dominated as more and more cards are falling into line in that way. I also don't think you understand what I mean by cancelling out.
Okay, society is dominated by one gender - but we've already established that and it doesn't get to the point. Does society being male dominated, and the rabid consumption by males of products sold with sex, have an outsize impact on femininity as compared to masculinity?
There's nothing hard to understand about what you mean by "cancelling out", and if anything you have failed to understand the general meaning of the phrase, since you said that women having an impact "in some small way" would cancel out the (presumably much larger) impact of men. If the fact that society is male dominated causes a lopsided effect, then there's a lopsided effect, not a cancelling out.
Saying things like "lol you missed the context" and "lol you don't understand my point" don't work when the posting clearly demonstrates otherwise and you are using that as an evasion without explaining further.
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Me saying the guardian was tongue in cheeck aimed at a few users who not so many pages back refused to consider the possibility that toxic femininity was a concept, which was solely brought up to show how stupid the whole idea was.
Me saying the both cancel each other out is me saying we may as well call it toxic sexual selection, or toxic biology or something else equally inane.
Following that premise, me saying before to plansix that prefacing a stupid argument doesn't defend it, was me saying that no matter how much you would like to say toxic masculinity isn't blaming men, most people are going to read it that way anyway, and further to the point I'd argue that an awful lot of it actually is blaming men.
If you have a problem with the general public interpreting words as they sound not necessarily on their meaning, I'm sure you were probably one of the people supporting that guy who got fired from google for describing women as more neurotic (among other things), if not you may be a hypocrite.
Ultimately the biggest and only problem I have is the ludicrous double standard where problems pushed by society onto women which they then go ahead and exacerbate are actually the result of male (that is how almost everyone reads it) toxicity pushing society in one direction.
This is a complete shit show made worse by people like farvacola all but cooing on the sidelines at people who disagree with him as if they were toddlers, reputable news organisations like salon, huffington post, the guardian, independent etc running this crap 24/7 pushing a narrative while people like plansix pretend they don't get an awful lot of their talking points from them, if not directly then through the zeitgeist.
Really it's not a suprise that Trump won. You can all look forward to the hardline ultra liberal man (yes it will 100% be a man) that follows him.
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The problem is that the groups misusing toxic masculinity which does make it a shit term are the ones being propped up by industry and given more sway. Popular use changes its position in the every day lexicon and trying to revert it back to the start gets you lumped in with rapists and domestic abusers. So now you have absolutely stupid concepts like manspreading and mansplaining thrown under "toxic masculinity".
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United States42008 Posts
But you're down with toxic cultural gender expectations as a concept that describes an actual problem, right? Cause if so I'll step out.
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On September 07 2017 23:54 KwarK wrote:
But you're down with toxic cultural gender expectations as a concept that describes an actual problem, right? Cause if so I'll step out.
Sure, I think it's a stupid phrase which is why I shortened it to something more commonly said, by most people, most days - stupidity.
It's been fun, I'm suprised I wasn't banned in this conversation, I'll see you again in 6 months or so.
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Those toxic men fighting off bears, predatory cats and snakes with their bare hands and rudimentary tools to prevent them from eating their women and children.
Those toxic men standing up to mother nature, erecting cities, building sewage systems, wrestling steel and iron. That patriarchal oppression.
Those toxic men coming up with all kinds of crazy inventions so we can be warm, sheltered and telepathically communicate with one another and then call men toxic.
Those toxic men creating magnificent works of art and literature for us to marvel at (potentially, unless you're a postmodernist then you can just shit all over that and be smug).
Few subjects are more single-sided and disrespectful than such a view on men historically. I just find myself technically unable to agree with a concept like that.
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I thought it seemed pretty basic, if you want to partake in a discussion about a topic, you first need to understand what the topic actually is. Like, before creating a 5-page shitshow because you don't like the term "toxic masculinity", maybe take a moment to understand what toxic masculinity actually represents. Your feelings about a particular word or phrase does not change its meaning, which in this case is very specific.
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