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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-06 15:01:34
September 06 2017 15:00 GMT
#173161


Ok, I'm straight up surprised by this strong response from Microsoft. Support is one thing, saying "don't cut my taxes until you do this" is another.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium4764 Posts
September 06 2017 15:03 GMT
#173162
On September 06 2017 23:53 Nebuchad wrote:
Highly doubt that's true.

+ Show Spoiler +
You can look at the Flynn Effect that shows we universally score much higher on IQ tests than our ancestors, which would suggest our genes have improved drastically for no particular reason.
For more specific counters you have for example the scores of Southern Italian Americans at the beginning of last century. They used to be similar to the scores of African Americans, but then in the span of very few generations the Italians improved and are now scoring similar to other white Americans, which can't really be explained genetically.
For even more specific counters you have situations like the children that african american soldiers had in Germany during/after WW2. They score similar to other Germans.

Those are the three that I remember off the top of my head but there are plenty of examples, some involving twins raised in different environments. You can also use logic rather than examples and consider what an IQ test considers intelligence: your capacity to do abstraction and generalization is tasked a lot. This isn't a capacity that is used at the same rate in all environments, most notably rural vs modern. From what I've seen it's extremely hard to look at the data and conclude that environmental factors don't play a major role in scores on IQ tests.

It's almost like we have better nourishment and upbringing and ways to ideally unfold our genetic programs, but that's surely not the case, right?
Seriously, of course intelligence is going to be bolstered by how you develop in this world.
But what do you think comes first, the genome you inherited from your mother and father or the unfolding of the genetic programs based on resources and other environmental factors (like social and cognitive stimuli?

Intelligence is obviously an extremely complex problem primarily based in genetics and how the genetic programs for brain structure can unfold and be maintained. This unfolding can be made easier or more difficult and needs to be maintained. This means disease, trauma, malnourishment, epigenetics, and so on and on.
Taxes are for Terrans
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13924 Posts
September 06 2017 15:07 GMT
#173163
On September 07 2017 00:00 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MorningEdition/status/905380105467387906

Ok, I'm straight up surprised by this strong response from Microsoft. Support is one thing, saying "don't cut my taxes until you do this" is another.

Probably more worried about the human resources impact from dreamers more then tax code hoodoo.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
September 06 2017 15:08 GMT
#173164
Uldridge, the claim I'm answering is "What we measure with IQ tests is indeed primarily though not exclusively determined by genetics." The initial claim by Kickboxer was "Unless you're information-deprived or malnourished (these will lower your IQ), the genetic component is overwhelming."

These claims don't really match what you're saying, and deserve us going after them. Would deserve you going after them too, actually, if you really hold the position that you present.
No will to live, no wish to die
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
September 06 2017 15:12 GMT
#173165
On September 06 2017 22:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2017 22:23 zlefin wrote:
On September 06 2017 21:53 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:


How does he still manage to tweet out complete lies like USA being the highest taxed country in the world? Like it's just not even close to being true.


because many people do not value truth. also many are too dumb to recognize it.
there's simply no consequences for lying. it'd be nice to add some, but I can't think of any good way to add them.

The consequence should be that your congress removes him from office or at least call him out and reprimand him. He's either completely misinformed or malignantly misstating facts. Both are unacceptable and he's making policy based on it.

current law does not allow impeachment for lying like that.
Some change to that could perhaps by done, but it'd take a constitutional amendment.

A reprimand is nice, but often fairly meaningless.

And of course congress itself may lie (though not nearly as blatantly on average); the standards applied to debate in Congress aren't that high, and lots of BS and misrepresentation is allowed (though again not generally as blatant as trump's stuff). congress really doesn't police its own conduct much (even though it does have the explicit power to do so).

I get the feeling that even with the power to enforce such rules, nobbody would unless there were electoral consequences for not doing so.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13924 Posts
September 06 2017 15:14 GMT
#173166
Wouldn't the people who belive intelligence is genetic be for racial equality and supporting the concept of white privilege? If you truly belive intelegence is primarily genetic then logically you belive that black people have the same chance for greater intellectual impact in society but that it's being supressed by the current society. That you regognize that white privilege is aceptance on how society has and is repressing those genetics the same as your genetics only beacuse of the color of their skin.

Also didn't the memo get passed that I was bunk years ago?
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 06 2017 15:14 GMT
#173167

A voice of sanity from the left. I hope you were sitting down.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 06 2017 15:15 GMT
#173168
On September 07 2017 00:07 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2017 00:00 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/MorningEdition/status/905380105467387906

Ok, I'm straight up surprised by this strong response from Microsoft. Support is one thing, saying "don't cut my taxes until you do this" is another.

Probably more worried about the human resources impact from dreamers more then tax code hoodoo.

I also think we are hitting the breaking point with the business community and the Republican Party’s base. The overwhelming majority of Americans support DACA, with the exception of self identifying republicans.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42653 Posts
September 06 2017 15:16 GMT
#173169
On September 07 2017 00:14 Danglars wrote:
https://twitter.com/JonahNRO/status/905176738191298560
A voice of sanity from the left. I hope you were sitting down.

The ideal has always been a legislative fix. That's why Obama asked Congress to do one before passing a stopgap measure.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 06 2017 15:18 GMT
#173170
On September 07 2017 00:16 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2017 00:14 Danglars wrote:
https://twitter.com/JonahNRO/status/905176738191298560
A voice of sanity from the left. I hope you were sitting down.

The ideal has always been a legislative fix. That's why Obama asked Congress to do one before passing a stopgap measure.

Kwark, it is only her. Just her, no one else has ever made that statement. She is the voice of reason in the left and we must accept this. Also you need to accept that you are the left too.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21666 Posts
September 06 2017 15:18 GMT
#173171
On September 07 2017 00:14 Danglars wrote:
https://twitter.com/JonahNRO/status/905176738191298560
A voice of sanity from the left. I hope you were sitting down.

That requires Congress to do something, which they don't.
Which is why there is a shaky solution in the first place. Because Congress did not do their job, As usual.


It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
September 06 2017 15:20 GMT
#173172
It'd be a good thing if congress passed some sort of legislation about immigration, specifically the DACA. I kind of doubt they will as it would require spines and the ability to not shrivel into dust at the first hint of criticism from anyone. Basically, they've shirked responsibility for the issue (and for that matter, almost all issues) for at least two decades, not sure they'll stop just because Trump asks them to.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 06 2017 15:23 GMT
#173173
I mean the ideal is Congress does it, but you know if they don't and you don't like that, you've got this extra-constitutional end run where you write the laws yourself and blame Congress.

I privately hope Trump uses this logic to refuse to enforce tax law on top earners because they're taxed too much. I mean, it would be ideal if Congress changes the tax law, but that requires Congress to do something, which is why we need this shaky solution in the first place. Trump would then truly be Obama's successor.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21666 Posts
September 06 2017 15:24 GMT
#173174
Pretty sure the Republicans can't pass anything related to immigration because of the rift in their party.

So to pass something for the DACA would mean asking (begging) the Democrats for help, which I don't see happening.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 06 2017 15:24 GMT
#173175
On September 07 2017 00:14 Sermokala wrote:
Wouldn't the people who belive intelligence is genetic be for racial equality and supporting the concept of white privilege? If you truly belive intelegence is primarily genetic then logically you belive that black people have the same chance for greater intellectual impact in society but that it's being supressed by the current society. That you regognize that white privilege is aceptance on how society has and is repressing those genetics the same as your genetics only beacuse of the color of their skin.

Also didn't the memo get passed that I was bunk years ago?

Depends upon which people you're talking about. White supremacists certainly don't take that approach.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42653 Posts
September 06 2017 15:24 GMT
#173176
On September 07 2017 00:20 Nevuk wrote:
It'd be a good thing if congress passed some sort of legislation about immigration, specifically the DACA. I kind of doubt they will as it would require spines and the ability to not shrivel into dust at the first hint of criticism from anyone. Basically, they've shirked responsibility for the issue (and for that matter, almost all issues) for at least two decades, not sure they'll stop just because Trump asks them to.

Ah, but you see Trump is playing chicken with them because he makes the best deals. He'll break DACA and then pin it on Congress and shout "you better fix this cause who do you think the American people will blame if you don't?"
And then when asked what he'd do if they didn't fix it and he lost the game of chicken he explained that he'd fix it himself. Truly the best negotiator.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 06 2017 15:27 GMT
#173177
Congress has been trying to pass DACA for 16 years and it has been pressure from conservative hardliners that kills it every time. It is overwhelmingly popular, but the nation is held hostage by a minority who would rather deport 800 thousand people who committed no crime and done nothing wrong.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42653 Posts
September 06 2017 15:27 GMT
#173178
On September 07 2017 00:23 Danglars wrote:
I mean the ideal is Congress does it, but you know if they don't and you don't like that, you've got this extra-constitutional end run where you write the laws yourself and blame Congress.

I privately hope Trump uses this logic to refuse to enforce tax law on top earners because they're taxed too much. I mean, it would be ideal if Congress changes the tax law, but that requires Congress to do something, which is why we need this shaky solution in the first place. Trump would then truly be Obama's successor.

Children brought to the US against their will as minors who know no home but this country.

Billionaires who have to pay capital gains at 20%.

Two equally deserving groups.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9617 Posts
September 06 2017 15:28 GMT
#173179
On September 07 2017 00:23 Danglars wrote:
I mean the ideal is Congress does it, but you know if they don't and you don't like that, you've got this extra-constitutional end run where you write the laws yourself and blame Congress.

I privately hope Trump uses this logic to refuse to enforce tax law on top earners because they're taxed too much. I mean, it would be ideal if Congress changes the tax law, but that requires Congress to do something, which is why we need this shaky solution in the first place. Trump would then truly be Obama's successor.

so do you prefer if we have an inept congress that's incapable of passing legislation that real people instead suffer? or that we reinstate DACA until such time that we have acceptable legislation?

and i mean joke or not, likening the issue to rich peoples greed is just bad. disheartening, even in this political landscape.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 06 2017 15:28 GMT
#173180
On September 07 2017 00:27 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2017 00:23 Danglars wrote:
I mean the ideal is Congress does it, but you know if they don't and you don't like that, you've got this extra-constitutional end run where you write the laws yourself and blame Congress.

I privately hope Trump uses this logic to refuse to enforce tax law on top earners because they're taxed too much. I mean, it would be ideal if Congress changes the tax law, but that requires Congress to do something, which is why we need this shaky solution in the first place. Trump would then truly be Obama's successor.

Children brought to the US against their will as minors who know no home but this country.

Billionaires who have to pay capital gains at 20%.

Two equally deserving groups.

And the law in your mind says that if the group is deserving, we can ignore the law. Interesting legal strategy, Kwark, let's see if you can get enough Supreme Court justices to follow along.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
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