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On August 25 2017 05:23 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 04:42 mozoku wrote:
I'd be willing to bet that if you ask any major ethnic group whom they feel is most discriminated against, at least a plurality of that group would vote for their own ethnic group.
There are definitely more valid complaints for groups that aren't white Christians, but the fact that all people pay most attention to themselves probably plays a significant role in the results of that poll. Self-centeredness isn't unique to white Christians by any means.
It would be a more interesting result if the pollster had polled a control group. what would a control group be?
A single "control group" would probably hard, but you could attempt to correct for the bias by looking at the average difference between self-perceived discrimination and the amount of discrimination other ethnic groups perceive your ethnic group as facing across ethnic groups.
It's not a great solution as you're using other ethnic groups perception of your group's discrimination to make the correction (which is kind of questionable), but I'd be interested to see the results of it before concluding Trump's white voters are on average crazier than the crazies of any other ethnic/racial group (after applying a filter [that favors racial group X's crazy idea] similar to "Trump voter" since white nationalism is sort of what he ran on).
On August 25 2017 07:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 04:42 mozoku wrote:
There are definitely more valid complaints for groups that aren't white Christians, but the fact that all people pay most attention to themselves probably plays a significant role in the results of that poll. Self-centeredness isn't unique to white Christians by any means. It doesn't actually make sense in terms of the demographic breakdown of the population though. Whites make up almost 3/4 of the US population. Even if you have the borderline-conspiracy-theorist attitude of "everyone not white is out to get me", there just aren't enough non-whites in US for that to add up to you facing more discrimination than minorities. For that belief to make sense, you have to also think minorities are racist at a drastically higher rate than whites (which is ironic to say the least), or believe that a significant percentage of white people discriminate against other white people but NOT against minorities.
I think most of the people who voted whites for that question probably believe that most discrimination against whites comes from other whites (i.e. programs like affirmative action).
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On August 25 2017 07:55 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 05:23 zlefin wrote:On August 25 2017 04:42 mozoku wrote:
I'd be willing to bet that if you ask any major ethnic group whom they feel is most discriminated against, at least a plurality of that group would vote for their own ethnic group.
There are definitely more valid complaints for groups that aren't white Christians, but the fact that all people pay most attention to themselves probably plays a significant role in the results of that poll. Self-centeredness isn't unique to white Christians by any means.
It would be a more interesting result if the pollster had polled a control group. what would a control group be? A single "control group" would probably hard, but you could attempt to correct for the bias by looking at the average difference between self-perceived discrimination and the amount of discrimination other ethnic groups perceive your ethnic group as facing across ethnic groups. It's not a great solution as you're using other ethnic groups perception of your group's discrimination to make the correction (which is kind of questionable), but I'd be interested to see the results of it before concluding Trump's white voters are on average crazier than the crazies of any other ethnic/racial group (after applying a filter [that favors racial group X's crazy idea] similar to "Trump voter" since white nationalism is sort of what he ran on). Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 07:23 TheYango wrote:On August 25 2017 04:42 mozoku wrote:
There are definitely more valid complaints for groups that aren't white Christians, but the fact that all people pay most attention to themselves probably plays a significant role in the results of that poll. Self-centeredness isn't unique to white Christians by any means. It doesn't actually make sense in terms of the demographic breakdown of the population though. Whites make up almost 3/4 of the US population. Even if you have the borderline-conspiracy-theorist attitude of "everyone not white is out to get me", there just aren't enough non-whites in US for that to add up to you facing more discrimination than minorities. For that belief to make sense, you have to also think minorities are racist at a drastically higher rate than whites (which is ironic to say the least), or believe that a significant percentage of white people discriminate against other white people but NOT against minorities. I think most of the people who voted whites for that question probably believe that most discrimination against whites comes from other whites (i.e. programs like affirmative action).
so what do you make of the data that was provided about how the different races responded to the question?
i'm satisfied to prove they're crazy; regardless of whether they're crazier or not thna others.
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On August 25 2017 07:15 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 06:57 Gorsameth wrote:On August 25 2017 06:31 Wulfey_LA wrote:Yeah, but if you give an anti-anti-Trumper enough time they will spin enough double negatives to get to the point to where Democrats are responsible for MLCOON guy turning racist. Just keep repeating that the Democrats are playing identity politics long enough and anti-anti-Trumpers will make there way to equivocating and excusing this kind of stuff away. EDIT: Dinesh really nails the anti-anti-Trumper spin as to why the White Nationalists are the Democrats fault better than anyone else. + Show Spoiler + Just because someone wants to help minorities have the same opportunities as majorities does not mean they are fighting the majority or that the majority is not welcome. But here's the thing: it kinda does. If you're the one having the privilege, a fight for equality is a fight against you, cause you have to give away your privilege. Of course you can't word it like that cause that makes sense to most people, so instead you have to paint it as other people trying to get an advantage over you. But given that there is a (justified) loss at the start, it's easy to manipulate people into believing that the other gets an advantage.
It will feel that way a lot of the time to the majority that is being "attacked", but here's the thing. I'm a straight white guy, so I've enjoyed pretty much every demographic privilege there is in this country. But I recognized and checked them some time ago, and though technically I'll still enjoy white privilege, male privilege, etc. for some time, I don't see it as a fight against everything I represent. I don't feel like I represent the oppression of people different than myself, and I don't see any metric by which that is justified. When I argue with someone who made a homophobic/transphobic/mysogynistic/etc. comment, or when I do anything else to demonstrate my solidarity with people who just want to be treated the same as me, I don't see it as a fight that I can only lose. I'm just in it to make sure that people who look different from me get treated like a human being too.
Once you upturn the notion that you're being attacked, you quickly realize that it was never the case at all. Unless they were Antifa or some shit, but that's on them.
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Men obviously have it worse than they did in the 50s, but they'll definitely have it worse in a decade or so since it seems like women are much, much better at going to and finishing college.
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Its ok because in response we can just continue to devalue the degree and hire our friends for top jobs
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On August 25 2017 05:54 Plansix wrote:
This pretty much assures that whatever bill gets passed by the house is dead in the senate. I also like that the content doesn't matter.
I mean it is very much congress's job post nixon, president's only real power is in foreign policy and domestic enforcement. But you just sorta come off as i don't have a plan when you do that...
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On August 25 2017 00:25 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 00:22 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:09 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:05 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:02 m4ini wrote:On August 24 2017 23:58 Introvert wrote:On August 24 2017 23:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2017 23:47 Introvert wrote:
silly Trump hasn't yet learned that, no matter the circumstances, shutdowns and crises are always the Republicans fault!
Also that the voters don't care. that lesson doesn't stick eithrr. I mean they control Congress and the Presidency. At what point to they take responsibility? What you have done here is ignored the facts that lead people to blame the Republicans and insist the Republicans are being blamed because the people blaming believe "crises are always the Republican's fault!" This is called a strawman argument. You have set up the premise that it is always the fault of the Republicans, regardless of the facts, and by disputing that premise you hope to prove that it is not the fault of the Republicans, regardless of the facts. But the facts in this case are that the Republicans have both the power and the obligation to fix this. If it doesn't get fixed, it's on them. Not because they're Republicans, because they were elected to fix it. nah when the gop is the minority they are expected to compromise (i.e. give up completely) and when they are in the majority they are also expected to compromise on almost everything. that's how it works. Democrats control nothing but I don't hear anyone asking that pressure be put on them. That's a red herring if i've ever seen one, jeez. not really, I was making a more general point. this is how it works in the media. only one side is ever expected to make concessions, so only one side is ever blamed for anything. not to say that the gop isn't terrible, they can't even get rid of Obamacare. Man, read what you're writing. Only one side is expected to make concessions, and then you literally spell the word "Obamacare". Do you understand why no one is taking you serious? I don't actually try to be mean, but you're being ridiculous to a level where i wonder if you're actually serious. when the Republicans are in the minority they are always called on to "recognize they are only the minority party and should compromise" and when they are in the majority they should "learn how to govern and make deals." it doesn't matter what the circumstances. one party is allowed to squabble among itself but never called on to make the same trades. Again. Obamacare completely defeats your argument. Show nested quote +
This doesn't just apply to the debt ceiling debate.
Trump is misguided but has the right idea. debt ceiling and budgeting times are good times for the nation's attention to be turned back to these issues. Congress never feels the urgency in it's massive spending any other time. but perhaps I view this less seriously because I know the top and they would never let any of this actually happen. it's all noise.
If "blackmailing" is the right idea, i hope that you never get to any sort of power.
I had to step out for a while and I know we've moved on, but I was curious how you thought Ocare was a counter-argument. repeal failed because Senators who supposedly favored repeal and/or replace are weasels. I'm not placing that on the Democrats. They have to ride out the ACA trainwreck in their own way.
+ Show Spoiler +As to that last point, it's not "blackmail." We have politicians whose first instinct is to punt on hard decisions. I'm talking classic give and take here, just like we are supposed to have for other topics. During debt ceiling talks is an excellent time to deal with things that, I don't know, increase the debt.
Besides word on the street is that Democrats know the GOP is scared to death of a "default" and they might try and see what they can get out of it. I'm curious to see if they will be that stupid.
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I'm not entirely sure this administration knows how to create a tax bill, or anything really other than Obama Executive Order reversal orders.
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I suspect this is a leak to try and bring Dems to the table. At least that's what I would suspect with a more competent administration. Posted the whole thing because it's short.
President Trump is seriously considering ending DACA, the Obama-era policy that shields some illegal immigrants from deportation, before conservative state attorneys general file a court challenge to the program.
Sources familiar with the deliberations tell Axios that Trump has made no final decision, and the White House continues to receive advice from the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice. Jeff Sessions strongly believes Trump should end DACA; DHS, however, has a more nuanced position, and Trump himself has said he's sympathetic to the children helped by the program.
What is DACA? Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals — a program Obama introduced that shields illegal immigrants from deportation and temporarily gives them permits to work and study in the U.S., so long as they arrived as children.
Why this matters: If Trump rescinds the program, it will affect a huge number of people. At least 750,000 people currently have DACA status. Despite promising on the campaign trail to immediately rescind DACA, Trump has wavered since taking office, saying he feels for these children who were brought to the country through no fault of their own. The Trump administration has continued to issue new permits under the program, and with its future unclear, many families are confused and anxious about their futures.
What the administration believes: The Trump administration doesn't believe it has the legal authority to maintain the current program; and DHS has made clear that if Congress wants to keep the principles of DACA in place, it would need to introduce legislation to do so.
What's prompting Trump: On June 29, Texas AG Ken Paxton sent a letter — co-signed by 10 other attorneys general from conservative states — to Attorney General Jeff Sessions, in which they "respectfully" request that the Secretary of Homeland Security phase out the DACA program; warning that they'll otherwise amend an existing lawsuit to challenge the program in court.
Asked about that threat, Sessions told Fox and Friends: "I like it that our states and localities are holding the federal government to account, expecting us to do what's our responsibility to the state and locals and that's to enforce the law."
https://www.axios.com/trump-seriously-considering-ending-daca-2476724345.html
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On August 25 2017 08:46 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 00:25 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:22 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:09 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:05 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:02 m4ini wrote:On August 24 2017 23:58 Introvert wrote:On August 24 2017 23:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2017 23:47 Introvert wrote:
silly Trump hasn't yet learned that, no matter the circumstances, shutdowns and crises are always the Republicans fault!
Also that the voters don't care. that lesson doesn't stick eithrr. I mean they control Congress and the Presidency. At what point to they take responsibility? What you have done here is ignored the facts that lead people to blame the Republicans and insist the Republicans are being blamed because the people blaming believe "crises are always the Republican's fault!" This is called a strawman argument. You have set up the premise that it is always the fault of the Republicans, regardless of the facts, and by disputing that premise you hope to prove that it is not the fault of the Republicans, regardless of the facts. But the facts in this case are that the Republicans have both the power and the obligation to fix this. If it doesn't get fixed, it's on them. Not because they're Republicans, because they were elected to fix it. nah when the gop is the minority they are expected to compromise (i.e. give up completely) and when they are in the majority they are also expected to compromise on almost everything. that's how it works. Democrats control nothing but I don't hear anyone asking that pressure be put on them. That's a red herring if i've ever seen one, jeez. not really, I was making a more general point. this is how it works in the media. only one side is ever expected to make concessions, so only one side is ever blamed for anything. not to say that the gop isn't terrible, they can't even get rid of Obamacare. Man, read what you're writing. Only one side is expected to make concessions, and then you literally spell the word "Obamacare". Do you understand why no one is taking you serious? I don't actually try to be mean, but you're being ridiculous to a level where i wonder if you're actually serious. when the Republicans are in the minority they are always called on to "recognize they are only the minority party and should compromise" and when they are in the majority they should "learn how to govern and make deals." it doesn't matter what the circumstances. one party is allowed to squabble among itself but never called on to make the same trades. Again. Obamacare completely defeats your argument.
This doesn't just apply to the debt ceiling debate.
Trump is misguided but has the right idea. debt ceiling and budgeting times are good times for the nation's attention to be turned back to these issues. Congress never feels the urgency in it's massive spending any other time. but perhaps I view this less seriously because I know the top and they would never let any of this actually happen. it's all noise.
If "blackmailing" is the right idea, i hope that you never get to any sort of power. I had to step out for a while and I know we've moved on, but I was curious how you thought Ocare was a counter-argument. repeal failed because Senators who supposedly favored repeal and/or replace are weasels. I'm not placing that on the Democrats. They have to ride out the ACA trainwreck in their own way. + Show Spoiler +As to that last point, it's not "blackmail." We have politicians whose first instinct is to punt on hard decisions. I'm talking classic give and take here, just like we are supposed to have for other topics. During debt ceiling talks is an excellent time to deal with things that, I don't know, increase the debt.
Besides word on the street is that Democrats know the GOP is scared to death of a "default" and they might try and see what they can get out of it. I'm curious to see if they will be that stupid.
The time to talk about the debt is when you put up next years budget and when you discuss bills that cost money.
The wrong time to talk about the debt is when the bill from last year arrives and you start threatening to not pay the bill for things you have already done.
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On August 25 2017 08:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 08:46 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:25 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:22 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:09 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:05 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:02 m4ini wrote:On August 24 2017 23:58 Introvert wrote:On August 24 2017 23:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2017 23:47 Introvert wrote:
silly Trump hasn't yet learned that, no matter the circumstances, shutdowns and crises are always the Republicans fault!
Also that the voters don't care. that lesson doesn't stick eithrr. I mean they control Congress and the Presidency. At what point to they take responsibility? What you have done here is ignored the facts that lead people to blame the Republicans and insist the Republicans are being blamed because the people blaming believe "crises are always the Republican's fault!" This is called a strawman argument. You have set up the premise that it is always the fault of the Republicans, regardless of the facts, and by disputing that premise you hope to prove that it is not the fault of the Republicans, regardless of the facts. But the facts in this case are that the Republicans have both the power and the obligation to fix this. If it doesn't get fixed, it's on them. Not because they're Republicans, because they were elected to fix it. nah when the gop is the minority they are expected to compromise (i.e. give up completely) and when they are in the majority they are also expected to compromise on almost everything. that's how it works. Democrats control nothing but I don't hear anyone asking that pressure be put on them. That's a red herring if i've ever seen one, jeez. not really, I was making a more general point. this is how it works in the media. only one side is ever expected to make concessions, so only one side is ever blamed for anything. not to say that the gop isn't terrible, they can't even get rid of Obamacare. Man, read what you're writing. Only one side is expected to make concessions, and then you literally spell the word "Obamacare". Do you understand why no one is taking you serious? I don't actually try to be mean, but you're being ridiculous to a level where i wonder if you're actually serious. when the Republicans are in the minority they are always called on to "recognize they are only the minority party and should compromise" and when they are in the majority they should "learn how to govern and make deals." it doesn't matter what the circumstances. one party is allowed to squabble among itself but never called on to make the same trades. Again. Obamacare completely defeats your argument.
This doesn't just apply to the debt ceiling debate.
Trump is misguided but has the right idea. debt ceiling and budgeting times are good times for the nation's attention to be turned back to these issues. Congress never feels the urgency in it's massive spending any other time. but perhaps I view this less seriously because I know the top and they would never let any of this actually happen. it's all noise.
If "blackmailing" is the right idea, i hope that you never get to any sort of power. I had to step out for a while and I know we've moved on, but I was curious how you thought Ocare was a counter-argument. repeal failed because Senators who supposedly favored repeal and/or replace are weasels. I'm not placing that on the Democrats. They have to ride out the ACA trainwreck in their own way. + Show Spoiler +As to that last point, it's not "blackmail." We have politicians whose first instinct is to punt on hard decisions. I'm talking classic give and take here, just like we are supposed to have for other topics. During debt ceiling talks is an excellent time to deal with things that, I don't know, increase the debt.
Besides word on the street is that Democrats know the GOP is scared to death of a "default" and they might try and see what they can get out of it. I'm curious to see if they will be that stupid. The time to talk about the debt is when you put up next years budget and when you approve of bills that cost money. The wrong time to talk about the debt is when the bill from last year arrives and you start threatening to not pay the bill for things you have already done.
Except that we know that path is never actually realized. I just wanted to point out this is nothing like "blackmail" which is an absurd characterization. It's not like we haven't known this deadline was coming since the last debt-ceiling increase.
I would certainly prefer that they dealt with it when budgeting.
Edit: I go into this with the assumption that the debt ceiling will be raised, because it always is. The GOP fears and even I don't think the Democrats are so far off their rocker that they'd hold it up. Although Republicans sure are cowardly...
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At some point is congress going to step in and be grownups? Politicians should not be drawning districts. Let's be a modern nation and have it done by an independent agency. Same with voting rights. State governments can't be trusted.
Edit: it's childish brinkmanship. The democrats will call their bluff again.
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On August 25 2017 08:54 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 08:51 Gorsameth wrote:On August 25 2017 08:46 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:25 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:22 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:09 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:05 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:02 m4ini wrote:On August 24 2017 23:58 Introvert wrote:On August 24 2017 23:52 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
I mean they control Congress and the Presidency. At what point to they take responsibility?
What you have done here is ignored the facts that lead people to blame the Republicans and insist the Republicans are being blamed because the people blaming believe "crises are always the Republican's fault!" This is called a strawman argument. You have set up the premise that it is always the fault of the Republicans, regardless of the facts, and by disputing that premise you hope to prove that it is not the fault of the Republicans, regardless of the facts.
But the facts in this case are that the Republicans have both the power and the obligation to fix this. If it doesn't get fixed, it's on them. Not because they're Republicans, because they were elected to fix it. nah when the gop is the minority they are expected to compromise (i.e. give up completely) and when they are in the majority they are also expected to compromise on almost everything. that's how it works. Democrats control nothing but I don't hear anyone asking that pressure be put on them. That's a red herring if i've ever seen one, jeez. not really, I was making a more general point. this is how it works in the media. only one side is ever expected to make concessions, so only one side is ever blamed for anything. not to say that the gop isn't terrible, they can't even get rid of Obamacare. Man, read what you're writing. Only one side is expected to make concessions, and then you literally spell the word "Obamacare". Do you understand why no one is taking you serious? I don't actually try to be mean, but you're being ridiculous to a level where i wonder if you're actually serious. when the Republicans are in the minority they are always called on to "recognize they are only the minority party and should compromise" and when they are in the majority they should "learn how to govern and make deals." it doesn't matter what the circumstances. one party is allowed to squabble among itself but never called on to make the same trades. Again. Obamacare completely defeats your argument.
This doesn't just apply to the debt ceiling debate.
Trump is misguided but has the right idea. debt ceiling and budgeting times are good times for the nation's attention to be turned back to these issues. Congress never feels the urgency in it's massive spending any other time. but perhaps I view this less seriously because I know the top and they would never let any of this actually happen. it's all noise.
If "blackmailing" is the right idea, i hope that you never get to any sort of power. I had to step out for a while and I know we've moved on, but I was curious how you thought Ocare was a counter-argument. repeal failed because Senators who supposedly favored repeal and/or replace are weasels. I'm not placing that on the Democrats. They have to ride out the ACA trainwreck in their own way. + Show Spoiler +As to that last point, it's not "blackmail." We have politicians whose first instinct is to punt on hard decisions. I'm talking classic give and take here, just like we are supposed to have for other topics. During debt ceiling talks is an excellent time to deal with things that, I don't know, increase the debt.
Besides word on the street is that Democrats know the GOP is scared to death of a "default" and they might try and see what they can get out of it. I'm curious to see if they will be that stupid. The time to talk about the debt is when you put up next years budget and when you approve of bills that cost money. The wrong time to talk about the debt is when the bill from last year arrives and you start threatening to not pay the bill for things you have already done. Except that we know that path is never actually realized. I just wanted to point out this is nothing like "blackmail" which is an absurd characterization. It's not like we haven't known this deadline was coming since the last debt-ceiling increase. I would certainly prefer that they dealt with it when budgeting. Edit: I go into this with the assumption that the debt ceiling will be raised, because it always is. The GOP fears and even I don't think the Democrats are so far off their rocker that they'd hold it up. Although Republicans sure are cowardly...
Point 1. Then stop voting these terrible people who use the wrong moment to talk about the debt into office.
2. How is it not blackmail to say "agree to this thing you don't want to do or we will default the country".
3. There is no doubt the Democrats would sign a clean bill. The problem is that the Republicans keep poisoning it.
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On August 25 2017 05:22 Wulfey_LA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 04:07 TheYango wrote:On August 25 2017 02:30 zlefin wrote:
Asked what racial group they think faces the most discrimination in America, 45% of Trump
voters say it's white people followed by 17% for Native Americans with 16%
picking African Americans, and 5% picking Latinos. Asked what religious group
they think faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters says
it's Christians followed by 22% for Muslims and 12% for Jews. I'm curious what kind of warped logic leads people to believe that White Christians face *more* discrimination than minorities. I get that they probably receive more than they did 20 years ago, and maybe more than some are used to. But the idea that it's *more than minorities* is just so patently absurd that I don't know what kind of logic gets you there. Here is a clear and eloquent explanation of how the white man is oppressed. This is kind of the short version though. The longer version is that Dems/blacks played identity politics first, which triggered the whites. So when the triggered whites turned to identity politics and grievance (see the 54%), it is okay since the Dems/blacks made them do it. The point is the real villains are the Democrats, who were the first and always racists (see Confederacy).
This made my day. Went from 0 to Racist in the blink of an eye.
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On August 25 2017 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 08:54 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 08:51 Gorsameth wrote:On August 25 2017 08:46 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:25 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:22 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:09 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:05 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:02 m4ini wrote:On August 24 2017 23:58 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
nah when the gop is the minority they are expected to compromise (i.e. give up completely) and when they are in the majority they are also expected to compromise on almost everything. that's how it works. Democrats control nothing but I don't hear anyone asking that pressure be put on them.
That's a red herring if i've ever seen one, jeez. not really, I was making a more general point. this is how it works in the media. only one side is ever expected to make concessions, so only one side is ever blamed for anything. not to say that the gop isn't terrible, they can't even get rid of Obamacare. Man, read what you're writing. Only one side is expected to make concessions, and then you literally spell the word "Obamacare". Do you understand why no one is taking you serious? I don't actually try to be mean, but you're being ridiculous to a level where i wonder if you're actually serious. when the Republicans are in the minority they are always called on to "recognize they are only the minority party and should compromise" and when they are in the majority they should "learn how to govern and make deals." it doesn't matter what the circumstances. one party is allowed to squabble among itself but never called on to make the same trades. Again. Obamacare completely defeats your argument.
This doesn't just apply to the debt ceiling debate.
Trump is misguided but has the right idea. debt ceiling and budgeting times are good times for the nation's attention to be turned back to these issues. Congress never feels the urgency in it's massive spending any other time. but perhaps I view this less seriously because I know the top and they would never let any of this actually happen. it's all noise.
If "blackmailing" is the right idea, i hope that you never get to any sort of power. I had to step out for a while and I know we've moved on, but I was curious how you thought Ocare was a counter-argument. repeal failed because Senators who supposedly favored repeal and/or replace are weasels. I'm not placing that on the Democrats. They have to ride out the ACA trainwreck in their own way. + Show Spoiler +As to that last point, it's not "blackmail." We have politicians whose first instinct is to punt on hard decisions. I'm talking classic give and take here, just like we are supposed to have for other topics. During debt ceiling talks is an excellent time to deal with things that, I don't know, increase the debt.
Besides word on the street is that Democrats know the GOP is scared to death of a "default" and they might try and see what they can get out of it. I'm curious to see if they will be that stupid. The time to talk about the debt is when you put up next years budget and when you approve of bills that cost money. The wrong time to talk about the debt is when the bill from last year arrives and you start threatening to not pay the bill for things you have already done. Except that we know that path is never actually realized. I just wanted to point out this is nothing like "blackmail" which is an absurd characterization. It's not like we haven't known this deadline was coming since the last debt-ceiling increase. I would certainly prefer that they dealt with it when budgeting. Edit: I go into this with the assumption that the debt ceiling will be raised, because it always is. The GOP fears and even I don't think the Democrats are so far off their rocker that they'd hold it up. Although Republicans sure are cowardly... Point 1. Then stop voting these terrible people who use the wrong moment to talk about the debt into office. 2. How is it not blackmail to say "agree to this thing you don't want to do or we will default the country". 3. There is no doubt the Democrats would sign a clean bill. The problem is that the Republicans keep poisoning it.
1. you love to say that. It's such a useless thing to say.
2. I directly disputed that characterization, but
3. you seem to think literally only one side can be guilty in any sort of discussion (as shown by #1) so I suppose any alternative is impossible.
I'm still more interested in how m4ini thinks that the Ocare example didn't work then this though. McConnell and Ryan have promised a clean increase and that is likely what we will get. Pretty boring tbh.
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Don't let people fool you, the way pushing the debt ceiling is a dangerous game. Even more so than with Obama.
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It's crazy how the GOP has somehow managed to normalize the idea of government shutdowns like it's the most normal tactic in the world.
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The last time they did it, an adult was in the White House. But maybe they want to have the worst year ever?
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On August 25 2017 09:07 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:On August 25 2017 08:54 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 08:51 Gorsameth wrote:On August 25 2017 08:46 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:25 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:22 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:09 m4ini wrote:On August 25 2017 00:05 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2017 00:02 m4ini wrote:
[quote]
That's a red herring if i've ever seen one, jeez. not really, I was making a more general point. this is how it works in the media. only one side is ever expected to make concessions, so only one side is ever blamed for anything. not to say that the gop isn't terrible, they can't even get rid of Obamacare. Man, read what you're writing. Only one side is expected to make concessions, and then you literally spell the word "Obamacare". Do you understand why no one is taking you serious? I don't actually try to be mean, but you're being ridiculous to a level where i wonder if you're actually serious. when the Republicans are in the minority they are always called on to "recognize they are only the minority party and should compromise" and when they are in the majority they should "learn how to govern and make deals." it doesn't matter what the circumstances. one party is allowed to squabble among itself but never called on to make the same trades. Again. Obamacare completely defeats your argument.
This doesn't just apply to the debt ceiling debate.
Trump is misguided but has the right idea. debt ceiling and budgeting times are good times for the nation's attention to be turned back to these issues. Congress never feels the urgency in it's massive spending any other time. but perhaps I view this less seriously because I know the top and they would never let any of this actually happen. it's all noise.
If "blackmailing" is the right idea, i hope that you never get to any sort of power. I had to step out for a while and I know we've moved on, but I was curious how you thought Ocare was a counter-argument. repeal failed because Senators who supposedly favored repeal and/or replace are weasels. I'm not placing that on the Democrats. They have to ride out the ACA trainwreck in their own way. + Show Spoiler +As to that last point, it's not "blackmail." We have politicians whose first instinct is to punt on hard decisions. I'm talking classic give and take here, just like we are supposed to have for other topics. During debt ceiling talks is an excellent time to deal with things that, I don't know, increase the debt.
Besides word on the street is that Democrats know the GOP is scared to death of a "default" and they might try and see what they can get out of it. I'm curious to see if they will be that stupid. The time to talk about the debt is when you put up next years budget and when you approve of bills that cost money. The wrong time to talk about the debt is when the bill from last year arrives and you start threatening to not pay the bill for things you have already done. Except that we know that path is never actually realized. I just wanted to point out this is nothing like "blackmail" which is an absurd characterization. It's not like we haven't known this deadline was coming since the last debt-ceiling increase. I would certainly prefer that they dealt with it when budgeting. Edit: I go into this with the assumption that the debt ceiling will be raised, because it always is. The GOP fears and even I don't think the Democrats are so far off their rocker that they'd hold it up. Although Republicans sure are cowardly... Point 1. Then stop voting these terrible people who use the wrong moment to talk about the debt into office. 2. How is it not blackmail to say "agree to this thing you don't want to do or we will default the country". 3. There is no doubt the Democrats would sign a clean bill. The problem is that the Republicans keep poisoning it. 1. you love to say that. It's such a useless thing to say. 2. I directly disputed that characterization, but 3. you seem to think literally only one side can be guilty in any sort of discussion (as shown by #1) so I suppose any alternative is impossible. I'm still more interested in how m4ini thinks that the Ocare example didn't work then this though. McConnell and Ryan have promised a clean increase and that is likely what we will get. Pretty boring tbh.
This whole chain started by you stating the you feel like the Republicans are always held as the fault for a crisis/shutdown.
The Democrats will pass a clean bill, does anyone doubt that?
So how can it be the Democrats fault for a shutdown if they will pass a clean bill 100% of the time?
The Republicans keep getting blamed because they are the ones who keep attaching stuff to the debt ceiling raise.
They are the ones who keep going, we won't do it unless X.
I would also love to hear your reasoning how poisoning a bill that needs to pass to ensure the continued operation of the government and would cost billions in damages if not passed on time is not blackmail. Cause I aint seeing that line.
ps.
The fact that you think holding politicians responsible for their actions as 'useless' shows how dysfunctional the system has become.
Lowest rated congress in history but lets vote them back in to keep them doing their horrendously awful job.
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EPT
