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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 25 2017 03:50 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 03:36 Danglars wrote:On August 25 2017 02:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Are we seriously back to not attacking the tweet and pivoting to an unserious standard of researching every user before you retweet their comment? Absolutely pathetic. It's like you want to lose. No, its about Trump yet again re-tweeting something from an anti-semite which he has a history of doing.
Thanks for the confirmation that it is exactly what it seems to be.
On August 25 2017 03:55 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 03:36 Danglars wrote:Are we seriously back to not attacking the tweet and pivoting to an unserious standard of researching every user before you retweet their comment? Absolutely pathetic. It's like you want to lose. Second in command of the free world retweeting an anti-semite is just totally fine to you?
It's not what the person says, it's if someone can unearth something about the individual in his or her past that disqualifies him. Frankly, disgusting. It's like you can't see beyond your own nose unless you have a disclaimer stating "I'm retweeting this because it's funny, not because I've researched this individual's past and found camaraderie in their worldview.
You really must be scraping the bottom on your Trump criticism if you're resorting to this. Did he not throw enough red meat your direction these last couple days or something?
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On August 25 2017 04:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 02:30 zlefin wrote:
Asked what racial group they think faces the most discrimination in America, 45% of Trump
voters say it's white people followed by 17% for Native Americans with 16%
picking African Americans, and 5% picking Latinos. Asked what religious group
they think faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters says
it's Christians followed by 22% for Muslims and 12% for Jews. I'm curious what kind of warped logic leads people to believe that White Christians face *more* discrimination than minorities. I get that they probably receive more than they did 20 years ago, and maybe more than some are used to. But the idea that it's *more than minorities* is just so patently absurd that I don't know what kind of logic gets you there.
I don't know, perhaps we can ask Danglars and xDaunt?
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On August 25 2017 04:12 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 04:07 TheYango wrote:On August 25 2017 02:30 zlefin wrote:
Asked what racial group they think faces the most discrimination in America, 45% of Trump
voters say it's white people followed by 17% for Native Americans with 16%
picking African Americans, and 5% picking Latinos. Asked what religious group
they think faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters says
it's Christians followed by 22% for Muslims and 12% for Jews. I'm curious what kind of warped logic leads people to believe that White Christians face *more* discrimination than minorities. I get that they probably receive more than they did 20 years ago, and maybe more than some are used to. But the idea that it's *more than minorities* is just so patently absurd that I don't know what kind of logic gets you there. Fox news and the war on christmas segments come to mind. Same with the anti religous discrimination laws. These people are selfish n self absorbed. Thats how. I dont see much empathy in them.
I would be totally cool with declaring war on Christmas. Anything to burn every record of those damn Christmas songs from history.
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On August 25 2017 04:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 02:30 zlefin wrote:
Asked what racial group they think faces the most discrimination in America, 45% of Trump
voters say it's white people followed by 17% for Native Americans with 16%
picking African Americans, and 5% picking Latinos. Asked what religious group
they think faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters says
it's Christians followed by 22% for Muslims and 12% for Jews. I'm curious what kind of warped logic leads people to believe that White Christians face *more* discrimination than minorities. I get that they probably receive more than they did 20 years ago, and maybe more than some are used to. But the idea that it's *more than minorities* is just so patently absurd that I don't know what kind of logic gets you there.
being incredibly oblivious to the actual facts of the situation; plus a helping of bias, and some parts of the republicans/conservatives have been feeding the story that they're being persecuted for a long time, so some of them actually believe it. that's long term propaganda doing its work; and they've been pushing that propaganda for decades.
some other poll had like 25% of people not knowing that the affordable care act and obamacare are the same thing; so it's not surprising that people who almost never actaully meet a minority are unfamiliar iwth the actual difficulties they face. especially if they consume few and/or highly biased media.
also, who knows how stupid people are when ansewring polls; I mean, they often answer with things that are provably wrong, and some are just weird/odd at times.
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I'd be willing to bet that if you ask any major ethnic group whom they feel is most discriminated against, at least a plurality of that group would vote for their own ethnic group.
There are definitely more valid complaints for groups that aren't white Christians, but the fact that all people pay most attention to themselves probably plays a significant role in the results of that poll. Self-centeredness isn't unique to white Christians by any means.
It would be a more interesting result if the pollster had polled a control group.
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President Donald Trump on Thursday reignited his feud with GOP leaders, taking fresh potshots at Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Speaker Paul Ryan. But underneath the bluster, there’s a recognition that Congress and the White House still need to work together to avoid fiscal disaster in September.
Trump is working to convene a meeting with McConnell and Ryan as well as Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi soon after the August recess ends, according to congressional sources. Avoiding a federal default and a government shutdown will likely be chief among the topics of discussion.
It could be an awkward meeting.
Trump blamed McConnell and Ryan in a pair of tweets Thursday for creating a “mess” over the debt ceiling, contending they rejected his call to attach an increase in the nation's borrowing limit to a bipartisan veterans bill.
“I requested that Mitch M & Paul R tie the Debt Ceiling legislation into the popular V.A. Bill (which just passed) for easy approval,” Trump wrote Thursday morning. “They didn't do it so now we have a big deal with Dems holding them up (as usual) on Debt Ceiling approval. Could have been so easy-now a mess!”
The tweets underscore the absence of a strategy heading into a delicate month of negotiations that could rock the U.S. economy as well as Trump’s refusal to call a truce in the GOP’s growing civil war.
The White House had said Wednesday that Trump and McConnell will meet following the August recess to discuss the fall agenda, though it did not mention Democratic leaders. A White House spokesperson didn’t immediately respond to a question about a bipartisan meeting, but press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said Trump intends to work closely with congressional leaders on shared policy goals.
Trump's tweet aside, passing a debt limit increase was never going to be easy.
The White House favors a "clean" debt ceiling hike. But conservatives in the House and Senate are loath to back any measure that increases the nation's borrowing authority without corresponding spending cuts and reforms. Connecting a "clean" debt ceiling hike to a veterans bill would have put them in an untenable position of either voting against their fiscal priorities or against the bipartisan VA measure.
Though the notion of tying a debt ceiling increase to the veterans measure was always likely to be doomed, one GOP source said the Senate had been preparing to support it, only to be stymied when House leaders opted to adjourn for the August recess.
House Speaker Paul Ryan predicted on CNBC Thursday that Congress would pass a debt ceiling increase and said there are "a lot of options" about how to structure the legislation. Ryan said the House had looked at linking it to the VA bill, but said a deadline came up and "we weren't able to do that then."
Ryan also said he expects the House to pass bills to keep the government open in about a week after Congress returns. But he said the Senate's heavy workload in September — which unlike the House includes confirmation of judges, subcabinet officials and ambassadors — will likely require a short-term funding measure to keep the government open until December.
Trump, though, has signaled that he's open to playing hardball for border wall funding, raising the prospect of a shutdown next month if he doesn't sign the short-term funding extension.
Trump is increasingly furious at Senate Republicans for failing to repeal Obamacare and not doing more to curb the Russia investigations. He berated Sens. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) and Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) over the phone, is seeking a primary challenger to Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) and has vented frustration at Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.). He's also drawn criticism from senators for his handling of the violent white supremacist march in Charlottesville.
Trump has particularly tangled with McConnell, shouting at him in a phone call earlier this month, while the Senate majority leader later questioned Trump’s political acumen.
After hitting McConnell and Ryan over the debt ceiling, Trump added another broadside in his morning tweetstorm.
"The only problem I have with Mitch McConnell is that, after hearing Repeal & Replace for 7 years, he failed!" Trump tweeted. "That should NEVER have happened!"
Trump’s attack on the Republican leaders came just a day after the White House and McConnell’s office issued conciliatory statements intended to tamp down talk of a breach and after the two men had not spoken for two weeks. McConnell’s statement also listed preventing a government default among his and Trump's shared goals.
And even as Trump showed no inclination to lighten up on his fellow Republicans, GOP lawmakers on Thursday appeared to try to lower the temperature around their squabble with the president.
Asked about Trump's debt-ceiling swipe, Ryan told CNBC, "I don't really take it as going after me." McConnell also praised Trump at a public appearance in Kentucky Thursday.
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), a frequent Trump critic, said Trump is right to criticize Congress and encouraged lawmakers to take tough votes during an interview with conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt.
Even Sen. Jeff Flake told Fox News he was "glad" Trump visited Arizona this week to tour the border, despite Trump's repeated attacks on him.
Still, Flake also poked at Trump in a separate interview, with CNN reporting Flake said Trump was “inviting” a 2020 challenger by how he is governing.
Source
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On August 25 2017 04:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 02:30 zlefin wrote:
Asked what racial group they think faces the most discrimination in America, 45% of Trump
voters say it's white people followed by 17% for Native Americans with 16%
picking African Americans, and 5% picking Latinos. Asked what religious group
they think faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters says
it's Christians followed by 22% for Muslims and 12% for Jews. I'm curious what kind of warped logic leads people to believe that White Christians face *more* discrimination than minorities. I get that they probably receive more than they did 20 years ago, and maybe more than some are used to. But the idea that it's *more than minorities* is just so patently absurd that I don't know what kind of logic gets you there.
Here is a clear and eloquent explanation of how the white man is oppressed.
This is kind of the short version though. The longer version is that Dems/blacks played identity politics first, which triggered the whites. So when the triggered whites turned to identity politics and grievance (see the 54%), it is okay since the Dems/blacks made them do it. The point is the real villains are the Democrats, who were the first and always racists (see Confederacy).
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On August 25 2017 04:42 mozoku wrote:
I'd be willing to bet that if you ask any major ethnic group whom they feel is most discriminated against, at least a plurality of that group would vote for their own ethnic group.
There are definitely more valid complaints for groups that aren't white Christians, but the fact that all people pay most attention to themselves probably plays a significant role in the results of that poll. Self-centeredness isn't unique to white Christians by any means.
It would be a more interesting result if the pollster had polled a control group.
what would a control group be?
There's certainly likely to be some self-centered bias; but of course the numbers exceed what a reasonable expected self-centered bias would produce.
I found the breakdown by race on page 46 of their findings, sadly it doesn't show the numbers of people in each category, thoguh sample sizes are undoubtedly rather small
It's hard to copy the data to here but i'll see what I can do
left to right is race of answerer
overall
Hispanic
White
AfricanAmeric...
Other
top to bottom is
Race Facing the Most Discrimination
African Americans
Asian Americans
Latino Americans
Native Americans
White people
Not sure
37% 22% 33% 73% 40%
2% 0% 3% 0% 3%
8% 24% 7% 8% 1%
14% 1% 17% 2% 14%
21% 9% 26% 6% 7%
17% 43% 14% 10% 35%
almost noone said asians faced the most discrimination (even the other group, which sohuld contain the asians)
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This pretty much assures that whatever bill gets passed by the house is dead in the senate. I also like that the content doesn't matter.
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On August 25 2017 05:22 Wulfey_LA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 04:07 TheYango wrote:On August 25 2017 02:30 zlefin wrote:
Asked what racial group they think faces the most discrimination in America, 45% of Trump
voters say it's white people followed by 17% for Native Americans with 16%
picking African Americans, and 5% picking Latinos. Asked what religious group
they think faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters says
it's Christians followed by 22% for Muslims and 12% for Jews. I'm curious what kind of warped logic leads people to believe that White Christians face *more* discrimination than minorities. I get that they probably receive more than they did 20 years ago, and maybe more than some are used to. But the idea that it's *more than minorities* is just so patently absurd that I don't know what kind of logic gets you there. Here is a clear and eloquent explanation of how the white man is oppressed. https://twitter.com/Yoojin_Cho/status/900725436556161024This is kind of the short version though. The longer version is that Dems/blacks played identity politics first, which triggered the whites. So when the triggered whites turned to identity politics and grievance (see the 54%), it is okay since the Dems/blacks made them do it. The point is the real villains are the Democrats, who were the first and always racists (see Confederacy).
ho-ly-shit. Martin Luther...fuck, what a despicable human being.
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On August 25 2017 05:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 05:22 Wulfey_LA wrote:On August 25 2017 04:07 TheYango wrote:On August 25 2017 02:30 zlefin wrote:
Asked what racial group they think faces the most discrimination in America, 45% of Trump
voters say it's white people followed by 17% for Native Americans with 16%
picking African Americans, and 5% picking Latinos. Asked what religious group
they think faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters says
it's Christians followed by 22% for Muslims and 12% for Jews. I'm curious what kind of warped logic leads people to believe that White Christians face *more* discrimination than minorities. I get that they probably receive more than they did 20 years ago, and maybe more than some are used to. But the idea that it's *more than minorities* is just so patently absurd that I don't know what kind of logic gets you there. Here is a clear and eloquent explanation of how the white man is oppressed. https://twitter.com/Yoojin_Cho/status/900725436556161024This is kind of the short version though. The longer version is that Dems/blacks played identity politics first, which triggered the whites. So when the triggered whites turned to identity politics and grievance (see the 54%), it is okay since the Dems/blacks made them do it. The point is the real villains are the Democrats, who were the first and always racists (see Confederacy). ho-ly-shit. Martin Luther...fuck, what a despicable human being.
I almost spit out my coffee at work when I listened to it. It seems pretty tame and then “Boom!” woops, I guess he was racist the whole time.
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On August 25 2017 06:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 05:56 Mohdoo wrote:On August 25 2017 05:22 Wulfey_LA wrote:On August 25 2017 04:07 TheYango wrote:On August 25 2017 02:30 zlefin wrote:
Asked what racial group they think faces the most discrimination in America, 45% of Trump
voters say it's white people followed by 17% for Native Americans with 16%
picking African Americans, and 5% picking Latinos. Asked what religious group
they think faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters says
it's Christians followed by 22% for Muslims and 12% for Jews. I'm curious what kind of warped logic leads people to believe that White Christians face *more* discrimination than minorities. I get that they probably receive more than they did 20 years ago, and maybe more than some are used to. But the idea that it's *more than minorities* is just so patently absurd that I don't know what kind of logic gets you there. Here is a clear and eloquent explanation of how the white man is oppressed. https://twitter.com/Yoojin_Cho/status/900725436556161024This is kind of the short version though. The longer version is that Dems/blacks played identity politics first, which triggered the whites. So when the triggered whites turned to identity politics and grievance (see the 54%), it is okay since the Dems/blacks made them do it. The point is the real villains are the Democrats, who were the first and always racists (see Confederacy). ho-ly-shit. Martin Luther...fuck, what a despicable human being. I almost spit out my coffee at work when I listened to it. It seems pretty tame and then “Boom!” woops, I guess he was racist the whole time.
I do think its fair to point out that it is very unlikely that Danglars and the others making his same arguments are making those same arguments for the same reasons. I can't imagine our resident republicans "disagree with" MLK.
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On August 25 2017 06:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 05:56 Mohdoo wrote:On August 25 2017 05:22 Wulfey_LA wrote:On August 25 2017 04:07 TheYango wrote:On August 25 2017 02:30 zlefin wrote:
Asked what racial group they think faces the most discrimination in America, 45% of Trump
voters say it's white people followed by 17% for Native Americans with 16%
picking African Americans, and 5% picking Latinos. Asked what religious group
they think faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters says
it's Christians followed by 22% for Muslims and 12% for Jews. I'm curious what kind of warped logic leads people to believe that White Christians face *more* discrimination than minorities. I get that they probably receive more than they did 20 years ago, and maybe more than some are used to. But the idea that it's *more than minorities* is just so patently absurd that I don't know what kind of logic gets you there. Here is a clear and eloquent explanation of how the white man is oppressed. https://twitter.com/Yoojin_Cho/status/900725436556161024This is kind of the short version though. The longer version is that Dems/blacks played identity politics first, which triggered the whites. So when the triggered whites turned to identity politics and grievance (see the 54%), it is okay since the Dems/blacks made them do it. The point is the real villains are the Democrats, who were the first and always racists (see Confederacy). ho-ly-shit. Martin Luther...fuck, what a despicable human being. I almost spit out my coffee at work when I listened to it. It seems pretty tame and then “Boom!” woops, I guess he was racist the whole time.
I thought he said that, but I wasn't sure, glad to know he's actually a colossal racist old fuck with certainty.
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On August 25 2017 06:21 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 06:14 Plansix wrote:On August 25 2017 05:56 Mohdoo wrote:On August 25 2017 05:22 Wulfey_LA wrote:On August 25 2017 04:07 TheYango wrote:On August 25 2017 02:30 zlefin wrote:
Asked what racial group they think faces the most discrimination in America, 45% of Trump
voters say it's white people followed by 17% for Native Americans with 16%
picking African Americans, and 5% picking Latinos. Asked what religious group
they think faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters says
it's Christians followed by 22% for Muslims and 12% for Jews. I'm curious what kind of warped logic leads people to believe that White Christians face *more* discrimination than minorities. I get that they probably receive more than they did 20 years ago, and maybe more than some are used to. But the idea that it's *more than minorities* is just so patently absurd that I don't know what kind of logic gets you there. Here is a clear and eloquent explanation of how the white man is oppressed. https://twitter.com/Yoojin_Cho/status/900725436556161024This is kind of the short version though. The longer version is that Dems/blacks played identity politics first, which triggered the whites. So when the triggered whites turned to identity politics and grievance (see the 54%), it is okay since the Dems/blacks made them do it. The point is the real villains are the Democrats, who were the first and always racists (see Confederacy). ho-ly-shit. Martin Luther...fuck, what a despicable human being. I almost spit out my coffee at work when I listened to it. It seems pretty tame and then “Boom!” woops, I guess he was racist the whole time. I thought he said that, but I wasn't sure, glad to know he's actually a colossal racist old fuck with certainty.
The whole Christopher Columbus founded this country was pretty good too. For course there are endless videos that of people from the left being shitty too. This one is just out there because he wants the confederate flags restored for “heritage” reasons. But then he slips up and says what he really wants.
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Yeah, but if you give an anti-anti-Trumper enough time they will spin enough double negatives to get to the point to where Democrats are responsible for MLCOON guy turning racist. Just keep repeating that the Democrats are playing identity politics long enough and anti-anti-Trumpers will make there way to equivocating and excusing this kind of stuff away.
EDIT: Dinesh really nails the anti-anti-Trumper spin as to why the White Nationalists are the Democrats fault better than anyone else.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On August 25 2017 06:31 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Yeah, but if you give an anti-anti-Trumper enough time they will spin enough double negatives to get to the point to where Democrats are responsible for MLCOON guy turning racist. Just keep repeating that the Democrats are playing identity politics long enough and anti-anti-Trumpers will make there way to equivocating and excusing this kind of stuff away.
I think this guy is an interesting data point because I think it highlights what a lot of people use to show contrast between the KKK and someone being "harmless". Will this guy go out and lynch people? Doesn't seem that way at all. Respects the fact that some people DO want blacks to attend white schools but wishes himself that schools were segregated. But guys, where's the harm in wanting these 2 cultures to remain separate and respected? I just don't want it around me.
But no. This guy is indefensible.
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On August 25 2017 06:31 Wulfey_LA wrote:Yeah, but if you give an anti-anti-Trumper enough time they will spin enough double negatives to get to the point to where Democrats are responsible for MLCOON guy turning racist. Just keep repeating that the Democrats are playing identity politics long enough and anti-anti-Trumpers will make there way to equivocating and excusing this kind of stuff away. EDIT: Dinesh really nails the anti-anti-Trumper spin as to why the White Nationalists are the Democrats fault better than anyone else. + Show Spoiler +
The middle paragraph is where the mind runs off the track into Oo.
"They are not directly for me so they must be against me".
No.
Just because someone wants to help minorities have the same opportunities as majorities does not mean they are fighting the majority or that the majority is not welcome.
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On August 25 2017 06:57 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 06:31 Wulfey_LA wrote:Yeah, but if you give an anti-anti-Trumper enough time they will spin enough double negatives to get to the point to where Democrats are responsible for MLCOON guy turning racist. Just keep repeating that the Democrats are playing identity politics long enough and anti-anti-Trumpers will make there way to equivocating and excusing this kind of stuff away. EDIT: Dinesh really nails the anti-anti-Trumper spin as to why the White Nationalists are the Democrats fault better than anyone else. + Show Spoiler + Just because someone wants to help minorities have the same opportunities as majorities does not mean they are fighting the majority or that the majority is not welcome.
But here's the thing: it kinda does.
If you're the one having the privilege, a fight for equality is a fight against you, cause you have to give away your privilege. Of course you can't word it like that cause that makes sense to most people, so instead you have to paint it as other people trying to get an advantage over you. But given that there is a (justified) loss at the start, it's easy to manipulate people into believing that the other gets an advantage.
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On August 25 2017 04:42 mozoku wrote:
There are definitely more valid complaints for groups that aren't white Christians, but the fact that all people pay most attention to themselves probably plays a significant role in the results of that poll. Self-centeredness isn't unique to white Christians by any means.
It doesn't actually make sense in terms of the demographic breakdown of the population though. Whites make up almost 3/4 of the US population. Even if you have the borderline-conspiracy-theorist attitude of "everyone not white is out to get me", there just aren't enough non-whites in US for that to add up to you facing more discrimination than minorities.
For that belief to make sense, you have to also think minorities are racist at a drastically higher rate than whites (which is ironic to say the least), or believe that a significant percentage of white people discriminate against other white people but NOT against minorities.
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Just because someone wants to help minorities have the same opportunities as majorities does not mean they are fighting the majority or that the majority is not welcome.
The opposite of equality is privilege. Privilege is something that you don't just give up. So yes, you have to fight for equality (every single issue in all of history, like LGBT stuff, feminism stuff etc had to be fought for). You fight the privileged for their privilege, or rather to remove said privilege.
edit: didn't see Nebuchads post, kinda what he said.
edit2:
For that belief to make sense, you have to also think minorities are racist at a drastically higher rate than whites
Out of genuine interest, are there statistics about that? Because there would be cause to assume that a higher percentage of a (possibly discriminated) minority is racist/anti-something. At least in my mind.
I'm not saying they are, btw. I just wonder, if i have 9 friends, we meet one thousand people, 100 of which are racist, 6 of my friends gonna be pissed off and start forming "anti-people opinions". That makes 60% of my group "anti people" or whatever, but only 10% of the 1000 people.
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EPT
