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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Norway28727 Posts
playing chicken, perhaps. I recall a story from a friend of mine in the Norwegian navy. It's years ago and I don't remember the details, but the gist of it was, if they were in danger of colliding with any american ship, they would immediately deviate from their course because it could be assumed that the american ship would not. With other countries, it was more along the lines of 'for whomever deviating makes more sense deviates', but there wasn't any point in discussing if the ship was american.
I mean, this mentality has inspired a pretty famous joke
+ Show Spoiler +Canadians: Please divert your course 15 degrees the South to avoid a collision.
Americans: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees the North to avoid a collision.
Canadians: Negative. You will have to divert your course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.
Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.
Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.
Americans: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS LINCOLN, THE SECOND LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH, I SAY AGAIN, THAT'S ONE FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER-MEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP.
Canadians: This is a lighthouse, over...
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United States43350 Posts
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men.
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On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men.
Obligatory "if the Dems and lib republicans had not replaced them with the welfare state"
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United States43350 Posts
On August 22 2017 01:04 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men. Obligatory "if the Dems and lib republicans had not replaced them with the welfare state"
You think they'd be better off if we'd taken the fathers away and also denied welfare? Calm down Ayn Rand. This isn't a "don't feed wildlife, it'll become dependent" analogy is it?
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On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men.
The three strikes laws by Clinton also did a lot to keep that trend going, while addressing none of the causes of crime itself. And the growing prison population was not addressed by Bush during his term either.
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On August 22 2017 01:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 01:04 Danglars wrote:On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men. Obligatory "if the Dems and lib republicans had not replaced them with the welfare state" You think they'd be better off if we'd taken the fathers away and also denied welfare? Calm down Ayn Rand. This isn't a "don't feed wildlife, it'll become dependent" analogy is it?
At this point I'm unsure if all of you suffer from a reading disability and really just that bad at understanding each other - the alternative seems counterproductive to the purpose of a discussion thread.
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Kwark’s joke about Nixon is in response to the very bad NR article that claims democrats hurt blacks after Jim Crow. Or that somehow Republicans would have treated them better. Which runs counter to history and our understanding of the Nixon elections and policies, all which were steeped in dog whistle racism.
I have no idea what Danglars was trying to say there with the welfare state comment. It would be easy to simply admit "Yeah, that NR article is terrible".
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The NR article is without a doubt terrible, but even you will have to admit there is a pattern of gross mischaracterization of the opposing side's arguments. And perhaps not understanding what Danglars meant should prompt you to ask him to clarify rather than giving a usual quip mischaracterizing what he said and thus launching us into another 10-50 page discussion where all meaning is lost and everyone is declared either a fascist, racist, nazi, ANTIFA, alt-right, alt-left, or something similar. It's a repeating cycle in this thread.
Or if one doesn't want clarification at least have the decency to simply ignore it and move on. Would also save us from the 10-50 page nonsens and namecalling.
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United States43350 Posts
On August 22 2017 01:14 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 01:07 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:04 Danglars wrote:On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men. Obligatory "if the Dems and lib republicans had not replaced them with the welfare state" You think they'd be better off if we'd taken the fathers away and also denied welfare? Calm down Ayn Rand. This isn't a "don't feed wildlife, it'll become dependent" analogy is it? At this point I'm unsure if all of you suffer from a reading disability and really just that bad at understanding each other - the alternative seems counterproductive to the purpose of a discussion thread.
Am I not understanding his point? In America welfare is given to help people in poverty. Nixon's war on the black community created a lot of poverty, and therefore a lot of need for welfare. The welfare didn't cause the problem unless you subscribe to a Randian philosophy where charity is the worst thing you can do to a human because it robs them of their freedom and their independence. Surely objections must be to the cause of the problem, Nixon, and not to the bandaid solution. I'd rather people weren't living in poverty but given that they are I certainly don't disagree with welfare.
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United States24749 Posts
Having never driven a ship, I think collisions can happen the same way a healthy adult can get caught by slow zombies. You can make a poor decision which puts you on a path you can't escape from unless you shoot the zombie. You probably shouldn't have gotten caught but now there is nowhere you can go unless the zombie is cooperative, has a radio, and has the necessary maneuverability to get out of your way. Oil tankers often do not.
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On August 22 2017 01:28 Ghostcom wrote:
The NR article is without a doubt terrible, but even you will have to admit there is a pattern of gross mischaracterization of the opposing side's arguments. And perhaps not understanding what Danglars meant should prompt you to ask him to clarify rather than giving a usual quip mischaracterizing what he said and thus launching us into another 10-50 page discussion where all meaning is lost and everyone is declared either a fascist, racist, nazi, ANTIFA, alt-right, alt-left, or something similar. It's a repeating cycle in this thread.
Or if one doesn't want clarification at least have the decency to simply ignore it and move on. Would also save us from the 10-50 page nonsens and namecalling.
A page ago I asked if someone could point to some good articles from NR. Or anyplace else really.
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On August 22 2017 01:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 01:14 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:07 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:04 Danglars wrote:On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men. Obligatory "if the Dems and lib republicans had not replaced them with the welfare state" You think they'd be better off if we'd taken the fathers away and also denied welfare? Calm down Ayn Rand. This isn't a "don't feed wildlife, it'll become dependent" analogy is it? At this point I'm unsure if all of you suffer from a reading disability and really just that bad at understanding each other - the alternative seems counterproductive to the purpose of a discussion thread. Am I not understanding his point? In America welfare is given to help people in poverty. Nixon's war on the black community created a lot of poverty, and therefore a lot of need for welfare. The welfare didn't cause the problem unless you subscribe to a Randian philosophy where charity is the worst thing you can do to a human because it robs them of their freedom and their independence. Surely objections must be to the cause of the problem, Nixon, and not to the bandaid solution. I'd rather people weren't living in poverty but given that they are I certainly don't disagree with welfare.
No you are not. If you've talked with at least one conservative before in your life you would've recognized the argument that some/most of the welfare programs incentivizes absent fathers and have thus caused many problems.
I'm not getting dragged further into the specific discussion of welfare/Nixon as I do not share that belief (and the framing is overly simplistic) and thus have no wish to defend Danglars's argument.
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United States43350 Posts
On August 22 2017 01:38 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 01:28 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:14 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:07 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:04 Danglars wrote:On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men. Obligatory "if the Dems and lib republicans had not replaced them with the welfare state" You think they'd be better off if we'd taken the fathers away and also denied welfare? Calm down Ayn Rand. This isn't a "don't feed wildlife, it'll become dependent" analogy is it? At this point I'm unsure if all of you suffer from a reading disability and really just that bad at understanding each other - the alternative seems counterproductive to the purpose of a discussion thread. Am I not understanding his point? In America welfare is given to help people in poverty. Nixon's war on the black community created a lot of poverty, and therefore a lot of need for welfare. The welfare didn't cause the problem unless you subscribe to a Randian philosophy where charity is the worst thing you can do to a human because it robs them of their freedom and their independence. Surely objections must be to the cause of the problem, Nixon, and not to the bandaid solution. I'd rather people weren't living in poverty but given that they are I certainly don't disagree with welfare. No you are not. If you've talked with at least one conservative before in your life you would've recognized the argument that some/most of the welfare programs incentivizes absent fathers and have thus caused many problems. This isn't born out of a Randian philosophy, but from a perspective that many of the programs are shitty and removes agency from those in need. I'm not getting dragged further into the specific discussion of welfare/Nixon as I do not share that belief (and the framing is overly simplistic) and thus have no wish to defend Danglars's argument.
What's this "if you've talked with at least one conservative before"? I am a conservative.
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On August 22 2017 01:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 01:38 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:28 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:14 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:07 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:04 Danglars wrote:On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men. Obligatory "if the Dems and lib republicans had not replaced them with the welfare state" You think they'd be better off if we'd taken the fathers away and also denied welfare? Calm down Ayn Rand. This isn't a "don't feed wildlife, it'll become dependent" analogy is it? At this point I'm unsure if all of you suffer from a reading disability and really just that bad at understanding each other - the alternative seems counterproductive to the purpose of a discussion thread. Am I not understanding his point? In America welfare is given to help people in poverty. Nixon's war on the black community created a lot of poverty, and therefore a lot of need for welfare. The welfare didn't cause the problem unless you subscribe to a Randian philosophy where charity is the worst thing you can do to a human because it robs them of their freedom and their independence. Surely objections must be to the cause of the problem, Nixon, and not to the bandaid solution. I'd rather people weren't living in poverty but given that they are I certainly don't disagree with welfare. No you are not. If you've talked with at least one conservative before in your life you would've recognized the argument that some/most of the welfare programs incentivizes absent fathers and have thus caused many problems. This isn't born out of a Randian philosophy, but from a perspective that many of the programs are shitty and removes agency from those in need. I'm not getting dragged further into the specific discussion of welfare/Nixon as I do not share that belief (and the framing is overly simplistic) and thus have no wish to defend Danglars's argument. What's this "if you've talked with at least one conservative before"? I am a conservative.
I'm glad your reading comprehension allowed you to take away the important part of that post. It also answered my initial question, so thanks for that.
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Ships take a long time to turn. I know that
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United States43350 Posts
On August 22 2017 01:41 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 01:40 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:38 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:28 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:14 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:07 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:04 Danglars wrote:On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men. Obligatory "if the Dems and lib republicans had not replaced them with the welfare state" You think they'd be better off if we'd taken the fathers away and also denied welfare? Calm down Ayn Rand. This isn't a "don't feed wildlife, it'll become dependent" analogy is it? At this point I'm unsure if all of you suffer from a reading disability and really just that bad at understanding each other - the alternative seems counterproductive to the purpose of a discussion thread. Am I not understanding his point? In America welfare is given to help people in poverty. Nixon's war on the black community created a lot of poverty, and therefore a lot of need for welfare. The welfare didn't cause the problem unless you subscribe to a Randian philosophy where charity is the worst thing you can do to a human because it robs them of their freedom and their independence. Surely objections must be to the cause of the problem, Nixon, and not to the bandaid solution. I'd rather people weren't living in poverty but given that they are I certainly don't disagree with welfare. No you are not. If you've talked with at least one conservative before in your life you would've recognized the argument that some/most of the welfare programs incentivizes absent fathers and have thus caused many problems. This isn't born out of a Randian philosophy, but from a perspective that many of the programs are shitty and removes agency from those in need. I'm not getting dragged further into the specific discussion of welfare/Nixon as I do not share that belief (and the framing is overly simplistic) and thus have no wish to defend Danglars's argument. What's this "if you've talked with at least one conservative before"? I am a conservative. I'm glad your reading comprehension allowed you to take away the important part of that post.
I chose not to continue to argue over welfare and incentives because you specifically asked me not to get into that discussion with you. But I did object to the idea that I, who still have my membership card for the Conservative Party lying around somewhere, have never spoken to a conservative.
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On August 22 2017 01:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 01:41 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:40 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:38 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:28 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:14 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:07 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:04 Danglars wrote:On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men. Obligatory "if the Dems and lib republicans had not replaced them with the welfare state" You think they'd be better off if we'd taken the fathers away and also denied welfare? Calm down Ayn Rand. This isn't a "don't feed wildlife, it'll become dependent" analogy is it? At this point I'm unsure if all of you suffer from a reading disability and really just that bad at understanding each other - the alternative seems counterproductive to the purpose of a discussion thread. Am I not understanding his point? In America welfare is given to help people in poverty. Nixon's war on the black community created a lot of poverty, and therefore a lot of need for welfare. The welfare didn't cause the problem unless you subscribe to a Randian philosophy where charity is the worst thing you can do to a human because it robs them of their freedom and their independence. Surely objections must be to the cause of the problem, Nixon, and not to the bandaid solution. I'd rather people weren't living in poverty but given that they are I certainly don't disagree with welfare. No you are not. If you've talked with at least one conservative before in your life you would've recognized the argument that some/most of the welfare programs incentivizes absent fathers and have thus caused many problems. This isn't born out of a Randian philosophy, but from a perspective that many of the programs are shitty and removes agency from those in need. I'm not getting dragged further into the specific discussion of welfare/Nixon as I do not share that belief (and the framing is overly simplistic) and thus have no wish to defend Danglars's argument. What's this "if you've talked with at least one conservative before"? I am a conservative. I'm glad your reading comprehension allowed you to take away the important part of that post. I chose not to continue to argue over welfare and incentives because you specifically asked me not to get into that discussion with you. But I did object to the idea that I, who still have my membership card for the Conservative Party lying around somewhere, have never spoken to a conservative.
Is this the point where:
1) I point out that UK conservative =|= US conservative
2) You are still missing the point. The point is that you (and quite a few others on all parts of the political spectrum) are repeatedly mischaracterizing arguments and it's destructive to any meaningful discourse.
EDIT: I have no doubt that you have actually spoken to conservatives as well as republicans before.
EDIT2: To move away from this and to something more constructive: here is an interesting map in these interesting identity politics times:
https://demographics.virginia.edu/DotMap/
Frankly, from a European POV the racial demographic is less interesting than the population densities in themselves.
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On August 22 2017 01:48 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 01:44 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:41 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:40 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:38 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:28 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:14 Ghostcom wrote:On August 22 2017 01:07 KwarK wrote:On August 22 2017 01:04 Danglars wrote:On August 22 2017 00:53 KwarK wrote:
I can't help feeling like maybe black families would have done better had Nixon not locked up all the men. Obligatory "if the Dems and lib republicans had not replaced them with the welfare state" You think they'd be better off if we'd taken the fathers away and also denied welfare? Calm down Ayn Rand. This isn't a "don't feed wildlife, it'll become dependent" analogy is it? At this point I'm unsure if all of you suffer from a reading disability and really just that bad at understanding each other - the alternative seems counterproductive to the purpose of a discussion thread. Am I not understanding his point? In America welfare is given to help people in poverty. Nixon's war on the black community created a lot of poverty, and therefore a lot of need for welfare. The welfare didn't cause the problem unless you subscribe to a Randian philosophy where charity is the worst thing you can do to a human because it robs them of their freedom and their independence. Surely objections must be to the cause of the problem, Nixon, and not to the bandaid solution. I'd rather people weren't living in poverty but given that they are I certainly don't disagree with welfare. No you are not. If you've talked with at least one conservative before in your life you would've recognized the argument that some/most of the welfare programs incentivizes absent fathers and have thus caused many problems. This isn't born out of a Randian philosophy, but from a perspective that many of the programs are shitty and removes agency from those in need. I'm not getting dragged further into the specific discussion of welfare/Nixon as I do not share that belief (and the framing is overly simplistic) and thus have no wish to defend Danglars's argument. What's this "if you've talked with at least one conservative before"? I am a conservative. I'm glad your reading comprehension allowed you to take away the important part of that post. I chose not to continue to argue over welfare and incentives because you specifically asked me not to get into that discussion with you. But I did object to the idea that I, who still have my membership card for the Conservative Party lying around somewhere, have never spoken to a conservative. Is this the point where: 1) I point out that UK conservative =|= US conservative 2) You are still missing the point. The point is that you (and quite a few others on all parts of the political spectrum) are repeatedly mischaracterizing arguments and it's destructive to any meaningful discourse.
This problem is compounded by posters purposefully obtuse about what they are saying. A lot of people have gotten very very tired of asking or trying to figure it out, only to be told they were wrong and misunderstood the post. This also feeds the cycle of characterization of posts.
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Where is aui on these roster leaks? He is way too good as a 4 position to be out on the sidelines. His carry is underwhelming, but his 4 is extremely impactful.
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On August 22 2017 01:54 Piledriver wrote:
Where is aui on these roster leaks? He is way too good as a 4 position to be out on the sidelines. His carry is underwhelming, but his 4 is extremely impactful.
Multiposting ftw? I also agree that aui is an excellent position 4.
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EPT
