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On August 19 2017 03:59 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 03:22 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2017 03:19 Falling wrote:On August 19 2017 03:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 19 2017 02:39 Falling wrote:
@Wolf
Yes, the speaker is Adrienne Smith and that is the exact quote. I don't see how it's in another context or do you mean that if you don't seek out and establish a person's pronouns and subsequently 'mispronoun' that constitutes something akin to sexism in the workplace? Or is it that if you refuse to use squeak, elkself, squeakself, tik, dai, necro, frankenself, merself, vamp, witchself, whomp (that's a great one), botself, mechie, and so on (man, tumblr is educational), then this would constitute harassment and workplace discrimination? It means that the bar for discrimination in the work place, or other environments, is already quite high. And while you can get in trouble in general for being an ass-hole at work, it takes several degrees higher before human rights complaints can start to factor in. Like any other current charges of discrimination (or discriminatory environments), there has to be intent, sustained action, etc. Would not using those above pronouns constitute 'being an ass-hole at work'? Because it seems being an ass-hole is a much lower bar to cross and likely all that would be sufficient to give just cause for firing (see people's defence of Damore's firing.) Why wouldn’t it? That is a form of harassment. The same with refusing to use someone’s married name because they are in an interracial marriage. Or using a nick name that someone has said they do not want to be called that. Is it? You just used alternate proper nouns as your examples, all of which are individualized to the person. Pronouns are a weird embedding of the language that are very functional, used rather subconsciously, and by their very nature, general. Think of the ones I just used: you, your, their- I don't need to know anything at all about you to use 'you'. I need to know a tiny bit more to use he/she, but I need to know you on a first name basis to know to use 'necro' rather than 'faun'. But it's not so obvious that refusing to treat pronouns like proper nouns is a matter of harassment or disrespect. But if it is, then that would seem to put to a lie wolf's claim- this is an overblown fear.
In a world of at will employment, it comes down to respect for your co-worker. No using the pro-noun they ask is a clear sign you don’t respect them and want to make them upset.
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On August 19 2017 04:16 Falling wrote:
"giving trans people basic human respect"
Well that rather assumes that pronouns are a matter of basic human respect, and I wonder- is it? Was it before? Did it become so now?
"someone asks you for an incredibly basic courtesy"
Is it an incredibly basic courtesy? To be compelled to use an individualized set of pronouns. Up until now, pronouns were not considered to be owned by anybody- they were an embedded feature of the language used for general purposes. Proper nouns and honourifics is where we demonstrated respect. Why and when did this become and an incredibly basic courtesy- to play along with their cubself, kitself, meowself, squidself, wormself, lynxelf, whiskerself? (I tell you, this Ask a Non-Binary tumblr is a treasure-trove.) Wouldn't be more respectful to treat them as the humans they are, rather than the animal or mythical being , or inanimate object they seem to think they are?
Yes, remember what was said about being fired for being an ass-hole?
Someone insisting on such ridiculous things is an ass-hole.
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On August 19 2017 04:11 Rebs wrote:Didnt that Cernovich guy threaten to drop the "motherlode" or what was it if Bannon got fired?
As someone who knew about Juice Bro of Super Sperm legend in 2014 when he was yelling at nerd girls for having opinions, I will never get used to seeing his name in this thread.
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it has always been basic human respect to call people by what they prefer to be called. translating these respects to other people shouldn't be hard.
if you had long hair and a thin frame and i called you a she i'd apologize and feel the appropriate amount of shame. whether you were trans or not should not change this.
if for some reason you object to what other people want to be called (which is weird. it's not your business- i find this reasoning very similar to homophobes opposing gay marriage. just weird..) you could always go wild and call them by their name and skip the whole whatever-makes-this-weird-to-you thing.
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On August 19 2017 04:16 Falling wrote:
"giving trans people basic human respect"
Well that rather assumes that individualized pronouns are a matter of basic human respect, and I wonder- is it? Was it before? Did it become so now?
"someone asks you for an incredibly basic courtesy"
Is it an incredibly basic courtesy? To be compelled to use an individualized set of pronouns. Up until now, pronouns were not considered to be owned by anybody- they were an embedded feature of the language used for general purposes. Proper nouns and honourifics is where we demonstrated respect. Why and when did this become and an incredibly basic courtesy- to play along with their cubself, kitself, meowself, squidself, wormself, lynxelf, whiskerself? (I tell you, this Ask a Non-Binary tumblr is a treasure-trove.) Wouldn't it be more respectful to treat them as the humans they are, rather than the animal or mythical being , or inanimate object they seem to think they are?
Would you be cool if everybody you worked with called you(assuming) "she" in a manner that was clearly meant to get under your skin every day and nobody would help you?
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Canada11279 Posts
To both Plansix and Wolf: why?
Why is it disrespectful? Was it always disrespectful, did it become disrespectful? What made it disrespectful?
Are they actually lynxes and witches and harpies and stars and leafs and sponges?
edit.
Gahlo, are you assuming my gender? 
You realize that he/she is very generalized- it's not even the same thing. And when I said you need very little information, I mean that. If I see a person in the streets as long as they are not deliberately trying to be ambiguous it's pretty easy to tell whether he/ she is appropriate- this includes trans people who are trying to be helpful: a great many of whom simply want the other set of pronouns- he rather than she and she rather than he. Well, alright. I can work with the cues you give me. But there's little to indicate that you consider yourself a dragon.
But Wolf "gender identity or expression" I haven't lost the thread at all. Once you delve into non-binary with no limitation, there's a whole branch that identifies their gender as anything but human.
I didn't say respecting pronouns- I'm asking, how is it that using individualized pronouns is a sign of respect? What if I am respecting people by treating them as people and not plants or worms?
I'm not in the alt-right twitter circle. I'm in the non-binary advice to other non-binary folks on tumblr. Unless the entire thing is a sham, I'm reading right from the people that help other people consider their faeirie selves. It's not a slippery slope- if someone else needs to tell you what pronouns you can or cannot use in reference to them- who are you to say they shouldn't identify as fog?
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On August 19 2017 04:25 Falling wrote:
To both Plansix and Wolf: why?
Why is it disrespectful? Was it always disrespectful, did it become disrepectful? What made it disrespectful?
Are they actually lynxes and witches and harpies and stars and leafs and sponges?
“gender identity or expression”
I think you've lost the thread somewhere.
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United States42009 Posts
On August 19 2017 04:16 Falling wrote:
"giving trans people basic human respect"
Well that rather assumes that pronouns are a matter of basic human respect, and I wonder- is it? Was it before? Did it become so now?
"someone asks you for an incredibly basic courtesy"
Is it an incredibly basic courtesy? To be compelled to use an individualized set of pronouns. Up until now, pronouns were not considered to be owned by anybody- they were an embedded feature of the language used for general purposes. Proper nouns and honourifics is where we demonstrated respect. Why and when did this become and an incredibly basic courtesy- to play along with their cubself, kitself, meowself, squidself, wormself, lynxelf, whiskerself? (I tell you, this Ask a Non-Binary tumblr is a treasure-trove.) Wouldn't be more respectful to treat them as the humans they are, rather than the animal or mythical being , or inanimate object they seem to think they are?
Falling, nobody is asking you to respect pronouns. They're asking that you respect people. If someone says to you "hey, I'd really appreciate it if you referred to me by the gender I identify with" and you say "fuck you bitch, I do what I want", you're not defending your right to use whatever pronoun you want, you're defending your right to treat people however you want. There's a huge difference. This is, and always has been, about how you treat people. It's never been about pronouns, and it never will be. Words don't come with some innate value, there is no special right sound that is intrinsically correct, they're just a way to communicate. If someone tells you that they prefer you to use one word over another, you cannot fall back on "yeah, but their word is the wrong word". Language doesn't work that way.
Remember when we all stopped calling black people coloured people? That didn't make any sense, they're not black, even the really black East Africans aren't like coal black, and most African Americans are pretty light skinned due to the amount of mixing that has happened. And yet somehow we all managed to survive just being polite over it.
As I said, it is, and always has been, about treating other people with respect. The opposing view to the pronoun debate is "yeah, I get that it upsets them, but I should have the right to do it anyway". And you know what, people do have the right to be assholes to each other. You can be as transphobic as you want. But when you're doing it at the workplace you should absolutely get fired for doing it.
As for the lynxself, you need to spend less time in alt-right twitter circle jerks. That's literally not a problem. It's right up there with the HIV stabbing antifa and the men preying on women by saying they're trans. It just doesn't happen. But let's say it could happen. Let's give your idiotic argument the tiniest benefit of the doubt. What you're saying comes down to "if we treat trans people with basic human dignity then what if that's a slippery slope and people wanting respect goes too far, better not risk it". You can fuck right off with that transphobic bullshit. You don't need to be an asshole to trans people just in case someone who insists that they're a lynx ever does whatever the hell you think lynxpeople are out there doing.
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On August 19 2017 04:25 Falling wrote:
To both Plansix and Wolf: why?
Why is it disrespectful? Was it always disrespectful, did it become disrepectful? What made it disrespectful?
Are they actually lynxes and witches and harpies and stars and leafs and sponges?
Because it is important to them. Because they ask you. Because they are a person and you should respect what they want. There are limitations to all requests, but we have decided this one is reasonable.
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For someone who has some trouble following this discussion, this is just about a man(-body) wanting to be called "she" and vice versa, correct? I have trouble concentrating for some reason, can't tell if it's limited to actual female in mans body wanting to be called "she" (and vice versa) or more.
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United States42009 Posts
On August 19 2017 04:31 m4ini wrote:
For someone who has some trouble following this discussion, this is just about a man(-body) wanting to be called "she" and vice versa, correct?
A trans-woman (someone who identifies as female but was assigned male at birth) wanting to be treated as a woman (or the inverse), but yes. Bodies can be in various states of transition.
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You're asked to give someone a certain pronoun that's become some sort of title, an identifier, which used to be an extremely basic way of approaching people, which now has the potential to become a slippery slope if we feed into that; what's keeping "cis" people from getting their nicknames they identify with? Sure, it might feel people feel more accepted if you call them 'they', which becomes confusing in certain settings, but how will you keep up if you need to remember 20+ pronouns? I can barely remember names ffs.
Yes, this is the slippery slope argument, and it's just a hypothetical situation. But still...
The underlying aspects of society are complex as is, no need to add extra layers of pronoun privilege to that for people you might interact with once or twice. And if it's on a regular basis, just call them by their name and if you're friendly, you'll probably be a good sport and use their preferred pronoun.
But why is it so important for people to show to the world how they want to be perceived? I never got that.
Why do all those subcultures (the hip-hoppers, punkers, anarchists, hippies, differential sexually oriented, religious, ...) all feel the need to show the world that: LOOK, SEE ME AND UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS THE GROUP I ASSOCIATE WITH. It doesn't fucking matter one bit where you feel like you belong, as long as you feel comfortable where you belong and that you don't get up in my face with that shit.
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On August 19 2017 04:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 04:31 m4ini wrote:
For someone who has some trouble following this discussion, this is just about a man(-body) wanting to be called "she" and vice versa, correct?
A trans-woman (someone who identifies as female but was assigned male at birth) wanting to be treated as a woman (or the inverse), but yes. Bodies can be in various states of transition.
You see, i was going to say that i don't understand the discussion because that should be simply normal, but the fact that you actively decide to be a dick about a very clear question makes me wonder if you're just out to argue whatever.
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On August 19 2017 04:36 Uldridge wrote:
You're asked to give someone a certain pronoun that's become some sort of title, an identifier, which used to be an extremely basic way of approaching people, which now has the potential to become a slippery slope if we feed into that; what's keeping "cis" people from getting their nicknames they identify with? Sure, it might feel people feel more accepted if you call them 'they', which becomes confusing in certain settings, but how will you keep up if you need to remember 20+ pronouns? I can barely remember names ffs.
Yes, this is the slippery slope argument, and it's just a hypothetical situation. But still...
The underlying aspects of society are complex as is, no need to add extra layers of pronoun privilege to that for people you might interact with once or twice. And if it's on a regular basis, just call them by their name and if you're friendly, you'll probably be a good sport and use their preferred pronoun.
But why is it so important for people to show to the world how they want to be perceived? I never got that.
Why do all those subcultures (the hip-hoppers, punkers, anarchists, hippies, differential sexually oriented, religious, ...) all feel the need to show the world that: LOOK, SEE ME AND UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS THE GROUP I ASSOCIATE WITH. It doesn't fucking matter one bit where you feel like you belong, as long as you feel comfortable where you belong and that you don't get up in my face with that shit.
Tell you what, when we get to 10+ pronouns we can start to have this discussion. Right now we are at like 3-4 max.
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United States42009 Posts
On August 19 2017 04:36 Uldridge wrote:
You're asked to give someone a certain pronoun that's become some sort of title, an identifier, which used to be an extremely basic way of approaching people, which now has the potential to become a slippery slope if we feed into that; what's keeping "cis" people from getting their nicknames they identify with? Sure, it might feel people feel more accepted if you call them 'they', which becomes confusing in certain settings, but how will you keep up if you need to remember 20+ pronouns? I can barely remember names ffs.
Yes, this is the slippery slope argument, and it's just a hypothetical situation. But still...
The underlying aspects of society are complex as is, no need to add extra layers of pronoun privilege to that for people you might interact with once or twice. And if it's on a regular basis, just call them by their name and if you're friendly, you'll probably be a good sport and use their preferred pronoun.
But why is it so important for people to show to the world how they want to be perceived? I never got that.
Why do all those subcultures (the hip-hoppers, punkers, anarchists, hippies, differential sexually oriented, religious, ...) all feel the need to show the world that: LOOK, SEE ME AND UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS THE GROUP I ASSOCIATE WITH. It doesn't fucking matter one bit where you feel like you belong, as long as you feel comfortable where you belong and that you don't get up in my face with that shit.
Given your admirable ability with what must be at least a second language with you I suspect that you can manage to learn some new words, if it comes to that. If the worst case "this has really gone too far" scenario is that we end up with 20 words for different gender expressions that people have to try and learn, well, that's probably something I can live with. I think I could manage to add 20 words to my vocabulary. And I think you could too.
But that's not what is actually happening here. What is happening here is a group of people who are experiencing body dysmorphia are asking you to help them out using existing pronouns. And body dysmorphia is meant to fucking suck. Every interaction you have with people includes invalidation as they treat you like a person that you know isn't you. Most trans people attempt suicide, it's that awful. Even if you decide that they're all mentally ill, not deliberately using their illness to hurt them really is the very least that you can do.
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Canada11279 Posts
edit.
Gahlo, are you assuming my gender?
You realize that he/she is very generalized- it's not even the same thing. And when I said you need very little information, I mean that. If I see a person in the streets as long as they are not deliberately trying to be ambiguous it's pretty easy to tell whether he/ she is appropriate- this includes trans people who are trying to be helpful: a great many of whom simply want the other set of pronouns- he rather than she and she rather than he. Well, alright. I can work with the cues you give me. But there's little to indicate that you consider yourself a dragon.
But Wolf "gender identity or expression" I haven't lost the thread at all. Once you delve into non-binary with no limitation, there's a whole branch that identifies their gender as anything but human.
@Kwark
I didn't say respecting pronouns- I'm asking, how is it that using individualized pronouns is a sign of respect? What if I am respecting people by treating them as people and not plants or worms?
I'm not in the alt-right twitter circle. I'm in the non-binary advice to other non-binary folks on tumblr. Unless the entire thing is a sham, I'm reading right from the people that help other people consider their faeirie selves. It's not a slippery slope- if someone else needs to tell you what pronouns you can or cannot use in reference to them- who are you to say they shouldn't identify as fog? These people already exist and are already making blogs about their otherkinselves.
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United States42009 Posts
On August 19 2017 04:37 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 04:33 KwarK wrote:On August 19 2017 04:31 m4ini wrote:
For someone who has some trouble following this discussion, this is just about a man(-body) wanting to be called "she" and vice versa, correct?
A trans-woman (someone who identifies as female but was assigned male at birth) wanting to be treated as a woman (or the inverse), but yes. Bodies can be in various states of transition. You see, i was going to say that i don't understand the discussion because that should be simply normal, but the fact that you actively decide to be a dick about a very clear question makes me wonder if you're just out to argue whatever.
:s
I think you misread my post. I wasn't trying to be a dick at all.
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On August 19 2017 03:35 Nevuk wrote:
The first letter of each paragraph, including the "Thank you" at the end spells R-E-S-I-S-T.
Pretty clever.
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On August 19 2017 04:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 04:37 m4ini wrote:On August 19 2017 04:33 KwarK wrote:On August 19 2017 04:31 m4ini wrote:
For someone who has some trouble following this discussion, this is just about a man(-body) wanting to be called "she" and vice versa, correct?
A trans-woman (someone who identifies as female but was assigned male at birth) wanting to be treated as a woman (or the inverse), but yes. Bodies can be in various states of transition. You see, i was going to say that i don't understand the discussion because that should be simply normal, but the fact that you actively decide to be a dick about a very clear question makes me wonder if you're just out to argue whatever. :s I think you misread my post. I wasn't trying to be a dick at all.
My bad then, must've misunderstood.
Leaves the rest that i said: i don't understand why this is a discussion at all. The only proper excuse for not doing it is by accident (and yes, that happens, happened to me too back when Scarlett "came out").
The first letter of each paragraph, including the "Thank you" at the end spells R-E-S-I-S-T.
Pretty clever.
That actually is funny.
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United States42009 Posts
On August 19 2017 04:42 Falling wrote:
I didn't say respecting pronouns- I'm asking, how is it that using individualized pronouns is a sign of respect? What if I am respecting people by treating them as people and not plants or worms?
Trans person: "hey, if you call me X that's really invalidating to me and upsetting to me, I'd prefer it if you call me Y"
Falling: "yeah, but I think that actually X is the most respectful way to treat you so I'm gonna go ahead and do that anyway"
There is nothing respectful about deliberately calling someone by a name they have told you upsets them. If you're going with "yeah, but I think they're wrong", you're being an asshole. Don't be an asshole.
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EPT
