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United States43973 Posts
On February 05 2014 03:14 Silvanel wrote:
Buy gold necklace for Your wife/girlfriend and You do. ~1200$=~1oz=31g . Its not that much.
Saying that i have encoutered counterfeiting TiN with gold (as it is cheeper) so You have a point kinda.
Gold is overvalued true, but its industrial price wouldnt be super low either.
Most people in the world don't have $1200 to buy a gold necklace for their girlfriend. Maybe the top 5% of adult men could do it but they'd be buying their girlfriends about 60 necklaces each. It's not really realistic. We have far more gold than we can use.
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On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion.
Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ?
On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be.
And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit.
On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant.
The same is true for gold to the same extent.
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On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued?
Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences.
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On February 05 2014 03:24 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued? Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences.
And that is untrue in case of gold how ?
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On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent.
1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that.
2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created).
3) No.
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On February 05 2014 03:27 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:24 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued? Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences. And that is untrue in case of gold how ?
It costs resources to mine gold (same as Bitcoin I may add), while printing money requires little to zero resources.
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On February 05 2014 03:24 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued? Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences.
That doesn't have anything to do with how accurately it is valued. The Fed manipulates the money supply in part to make sure that the value is stable and predictable. Unlike the price of gold.
Can you imagine what it would be like to take out a loan denominated in an asset without predictable value?
It costs resources to mine gold (same as Bitcoin I may add), while printing money requires little to zero resources.
How do you account for the volatility of the price of gold then? The price doesn't have anything to do with it's scarcity or how difficult/easy it is to mine.
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On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No.
Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency.
ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim.
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On February 05 2014 03:33 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:24 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued? Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences. That doesn't have anything to do with how accurately it is valued. The Fed manipulates the money supply in part to make sure that the value is stable and predictable. Unlike the price of gold. Can you imagine what it would be like to take out a loan denominated in an asset without predictable value?
Can't do anything but LOL at this post, sorry buddy. Everything has risk associated with it...nothing is 100% predictable.
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On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim.
As a follow up, if the gold standard was so great, why has every country that was ever on it reneged on the gold promise as soon as it was inconvenient? No country has actually stuck to a gold standard. They all reneged. Every one. What makes you think that any government that says it will stick to a gold standard will actually do it?
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On February 05 2014 03:36 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:33 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:24 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued? Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences. That doesn't have anything to do with how accurately it is valued. The Fed manipulates the money supply in part to make sure that the value is stable and predictable. Unlike the price of gold. Can you imagine what it would be like to take out a loan denominated in an asset without predictable value? Can't do anything but LOL at this post, sorry buddy. Everything has risk associated with it...nothing is 100% predictable.
Some things are less volatile and more predictable than others though, hence why people take out loans denominated in the "dreaded" fiat currency you keep nagging on about, rather than say Dogecoins.....
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On February 05 2014 03:36 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:33 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:24 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued? Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences. That doesn't have anything to do with how accurately it is valued. The Fed manipulates the money supply in part to make sure that the value is stable and predictable. Unlike the price of gold. Can you imagine what it would be like to take out a loan denominated in an asset without predictable value? Can't do anything but LOL at this post, sorry buddy. Everything has risk associated with it...nothing is 100% predictable.
I never suggested that anything is certain... just that the value of currency is stable and predictable relative to gold, in part because of the intervention of the Fed.
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On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim.
Currency is only what you define it as. Right now "currency" is gov't paper controlled by one entity. The price of gold has gone up steadily as the money base has broadened...please get your facts straight.
Seems you are very close to Austria...I suggest you try and take an Austrian economics class. I wish I had that opportunity, but universities in the States brainwash today's kids with Keynesian economics.
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On February 05 2014 02:58 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. how do you guys know these kinds of things O.o
There is absolutely no proof or evidence of this, it's just what he believes, good luck arguing with it.
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On February 05 2014 03:43 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:36 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:33 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:24 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued? Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences. That doesn't have anything to do with how accurately it is valued. The Fed manipulates the money supply in part to make sure that the value is stable and predictable. Unlike the price of gold. Can you imagine what it would be like to take out a loan denominated in an asset without predictable value? Can't do anything but LOL at this post, sorry buddy. Everything has risk associated with it...nothing is 100% predictable. I never suggested that anything is certain... just that the value of currency is stable and predictable relative to gold, in part because of the intervention of the Fed.
Fiat currency has no value...none. Assets have value and we denominate those assets in fiat currency because that is what is forced upon us by the gov't who controls the fiat currency supply...as I've already said.
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On February 05 2014 03:45 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim. Currency is only what you define it as. Right now "currency" is gov't paper controlled by one entity. The price of gold has gone up steadily as the money base has broadened...please get your facts straight. Seems you are very close to Austria...I suggest you try and take an Austrian economics class. I wish I had that opportunity, but universities in the States brainwash today's kids with Keynesian economics.
I got my facts straight, I see absolutely nothing that you said that supports your previous statements and goes against what I claimed. Please get your arguments straight.
I see no need to study the nonsense that is Austrian economic school. It is not seriously taught in neither in Austria neither in Czech. Closest you get to Austrian school is in US.
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United States43973 Posts
On February 05 2014 03:48 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 02:58 Roe wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. how do you guys know these kinds of things O.o There is absolutely no proof or evidence of this, it's just what he believes, good luck arguing with it.
The amount of gold mined and the annual consumption of gold are known figures.
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On February 05 2014 03:51 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:43 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:36 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:33 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:24 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued? Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences. That doesn't have anything to do with how accurately it is valued. The Fed manipulates the money supply in part to make sure that the value is stable and predictable. Unlike the price of gold. Can you imagine what it would be like to take out a loan denominated in an asset without predictable value? Can't do anything but LOL at this post, sorry buddy. Everything has risk associated with it...nothing is 100% predictable. I never suggested that anything is certain... just that the value of currency is stable and predictable relative to gold, in part because of the intervention of the Fed. Fiat currency has no value...none. Assets have value and we denominate those assets in fiat currency because that is what is forced upon us by the gov't who controls the fiat currency supply...as I've already said.
For a guy claiming to know economics (even Austrian) you seem to be completely ignorant in their approach to value. Things have the value others are willing to exchange for it. Thus fiat currency has value, because people are willing to exchange it for goods. And no government force is not the reason. Did government force help Zimbabwean dollar ?
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On February 05 2014 03:51 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:43 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:36 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:33 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:24 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued? Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences. That doesn't have anything to do with how accurately it is valued. The Fed manipulates the money supply in part to make sure that the value is stable and predictable. Unlike the price of gold. Can you imagine what it would be like to take out a loan denominated in an asset without predictable value? Can't do anything but LOL at this post, sorry buddy. Everything has risk associated with it...nothing is 100% predictable. I never suggested that anything is certain... just that the value of currency is stable and predictable relative to gold, in part because of the intervention of the Fed. Fiat currency has no value...none. Assets have value and we denominate those assets in fiat currency because that is what is forced upon us by the gov't who controls the fiat currency supply...as I've already said.
And I suppose you have a theory for why the historical price of gold is so volatile? Is it the Fed's fault?
Edit: My point is, that if gold (or any asset) has some sort of intrinsic value calculated based on its cost of extraction + a function of its industrial usefulness or whatever than its price should be somewhat stable, or at least related to how these factors change over time. In comparison, the price of gold appears very unstable, which is why it would be a terrible unit of exchange, even if it only ever increased in value.
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On February 05 2014 03:37 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim. As a follow up, if the gold standard was so great, why has every country that was ever on it reneged on the gold promise as soon as it was inconvenient? No country has actually stuck to a gold standard. They all reneged. Every one. What makes you think that any government that says it will stick to a gold standard will actually do it?
In fact most of the currency crisis that happened in the last 20 years (like the 1997 asian crisis) happened in countries who had fixed money exhange rate in relation to the dollars. What is happening in europe is similar (with an euro not fixed to the dollars, but to german's production efficiency and neomercantilist practices). Floating exchange rate are just the most stable. Gold standard is a "barbarian relique of the past", and some american still talk about it simply because it was greatly beneficial to the US.
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EPT
