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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
zusch
Profile Joined March 2011
United States73 Posts
February 04 2014 17:36 GMT
#16901
On February 05 2014 01:41 KwarK wrote:
The fall of Rome was not caused by debasing currency. Source: 4 years study at a good university doing Ancient History, in particular Rome.


Gold as a reserve currency is just fucking retarded anyway. As an economy expands you need more currency to have shit working. Investors want to get interest, people want their assets to retain value, population grows, the amount of currency in existence must grow with the economy. This causes huge issues in a gold standard economy because it means you have to subdivide gold which means those who hoarded gold rather than invested it have seen a greater return because currency itself is becoming a scarce commodity. The economic boom of the 18th and 19th centuries would not have been possible on the gold standard without the emergence of huge new gold sources which flooded the economies with a shiny metal to make the new currency representing the economic growth out of.

The metal itself has very little value, the industrial value of gold is far, far, far below the current market value of gold for example. It's not even especially rare, there is far more of it stocked up than is ever reasonably likely to be used. It's an ongoing greater fool fallacy, people value it because they expect to find someone who values it even more to pass it onto and not actually be holding it when someone finally goes "wait, why are we stockpiling this gold stuff again?". The idea that you think paper money is questionable but gold is precious is pretty laughable. If you couldn't trade either they're both pretty worthless, they're both just physical representations of value that are no stronger than the trading partner's faith that they will keep their value. The emperor has no clothes.

I agree with you that gold is very little industrial value and I personally don't understand why it has such a high importance when valuing in the mind of many, but money has to be worth something...and when you print print print it is hard to know how much anything is worth. Gold doesn't even need to be used in every transaction. I could trade bread for cattle, cattle for copper, etc. If people hoarded their gold and no one could get any, do you think all trade would just stop and value of gold would go to infinity? No...people would barter for goods and services.

Unfortunately barter is not a viable form of trade for tax reasons as everything MUST be denominated in U.S. dollars. We are forced to use this worthless paper in every transaction we make. That is why Bitcoin is so interesting and why the gov't finds it so threatening. Bitcoin is going give people a way to transact anonymously without using worthless paper.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-04 17:41:01
February 04 2014 17:40 GMT
#16902
Bitcoin is interesting because it is new and exciting, not because it provides any sort of realistic alternative to nationalized fiat currencies. The only threat it presents to governments is the nightmare that comes with all the unforeseen liability and potential for fraud.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
February 04 2014 17:46 GMT
#16903
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44448 Posts
February 04 2014 17:49 GMT
#16904
On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".

Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
zusch
Profile Joined March 2011
United States73 Posts
February 04 2014 17:52 GMT
#16905
On February 05 2014 02:40 farvacola wrote:
Bitcoin is interesting because it is new and exciting, not because it provides any sort of realistic alternative to nationalized fiat currencies. The only threat it presents to governments is the nightmare that comes with all the unforeseen liability and potential for fraud.

Couldn't be further from the truth. The cost to send a Bitcoin to someone else is virtually zero, while buying something off Amazon would cost 2-3% extra because of credit card transaction costs. Then you include the privacy of Bitcoin and it becomes a very real alternative to fiat currency.

The gov't does not care about fraud, they are the fraud. They steal from their citizens, play on their emotions for political gain, divide and conquer, and harass true heroes of the economy. If Bitcoin fails it will be because the gov't destroys it, not because people don't see it as a viable method of transaction.
zusch
Profile Joined March 2011
United States73 Posts
February 04 2014 17:54 GMT
#16906
On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".

Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-04 17:57:18
February 04 2014 17:54 GMT
#16907
On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".

Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed.

scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. And the amount of central bank money isn't fixed, that's the important difference between gold and cash.

Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion.

If the government would be so scared we'd only be using fiat money by now.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44448 Posts
February 04 2014 17:57 GMT
#16908
On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".

Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed.

scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore.

Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-04 18:16:02
February 04 2014 17:58 GMT
#16909
Oh no a link to ZH: Obamacare to cost the economy a net of 2.5 million jobs (CBO)

Tab down to Appendix C

How Much Will the ACA Reduce Employment in the Longer Term?

The ACA’s largest impact on labor markets will probably occur after 2016, once its major provisions have taken full effect and overall economic output nears its maxi-mum sustainable level. CBO estimates that the ACA willreduce the total number of hours worked, on net, byabout 1.5 percent to 2.0 percent during the period from 2017 to 2024, almost entirely because workers will choose to supply less labor—given the new taxes and other incentives they will face and the financial benefits some will receive. Because the largest declines in labor supply will probably occur among lower-wage workers, the reduction in aggregate compensation (wages, salaries, and fringe benefits) and the impact on the overall econ-omy will be proportionally smaller than the reduction in hours worked. Specifically, CBO estimates that the ACA will cause a reduction of roughly 1 percent in aggregate labor compensation over the 2017–2024 period, com-pared with what it would have been otherwise. Although such effects are likely to continue after 2024 (the end of the current 10-year budget window), CBO has not esti-mated their magnitude or duration over a longer period.

Incentives to Change Labor Supply and Groups Affected.

For some people, the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid will reduce the incentive to work—but among other people it will increase that incentive. As with exchange subsidies, access to Medicaid confers financial benefits that are phased out with rising income or (more commonly) elim-inated when income exceeds a threshold; some people will thus work fewer hours or withdraw from the labor force to become or remain eligible (the substitution effect). Moreover, those financial benefits will lead some people to work less because the increase in their available resources enables them to reduce work without a decline in their standard of living (the income effect).

The Magnitude of the Incentive to Reduce Labor Supply.

For some people, the availability of exchange subsidies under the ACA will reduce incentives to work both through a substitution effect and through an income effect. The former arises because subsidies decline with rising income (and increase as income falls), thus making work less attractive. As a result, some people will choose not to work or will work less—thus substituting other activities for work. The income effect arises because subsidies increase available resources—similar to giving people greater income—thereby allowing some people to maintain the same standard of living while working less. The magnitude of the incentive to reduce labor supply thus depends on the size of the subsidies and the rate at which they are phased out.


The reduction in full-time-equivalent employment that CBO expects will arise from the ACA includes some
people choosing not to work at all and other people choosing to work fewer hours than they would have in
the absence of the law; however, CBO has not tried to quantify those two components of the overall effect.
Because some people will reduce the amount of hours they work rather than stopping work altogether, the
number who will choose to leave employment because of the ACA in 2024 is likely to be substantially less than
2.5 million. At the same time, more than 2.5 million people are likely to reduce the amount of labor they
choose to supply to some degree because of the ACA, even though many of them will not leave the labor force
entirely.
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
February 04 2014 17:58 GMT
#16910
On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".

Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed.


how do you guys know these kinds of things O.o
zusch
Profile Joined March 2011
United States73 Posts
February 04 2014 18:01 GMT
#16911
On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:
On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".

Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed.

scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore.

Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low.

I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either.

I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant.
Mercy13
Profile Joined January 2011
United States718 Posts
February 04 2014 18:02 GMT
#16912
So how do you value gold?
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
February 04 2014 18:02 GMT
#16913
On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:
On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".

Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed.

scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore.

Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low.

Maybe it's some kind of language confusion. All I was saying is : Gold can't be printed, so it's price stable, people like to invest in it and that makes it valuable.
zusch
Profile Joined March 2011
United States73 Posts
February 04 2014 18:05 GMT
#16914
On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold?

Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be.
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4769 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-04 18:07:31
February 04 2014 18:05 GMT
#16915
On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".

Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed.


However, we would use much more gold for industrial purpose if it wouldnt be so expansive. It has third electrical conducitivity of pure elements (behind silver and copper) and has huge chemical resistance. It has also very good decorative qualities. It has limited industrial aplictions because of its price not because of its low qualities.

And its scarce compared to elements like: iron, alumunium, silicon, carbon.....
Pathetic Greta hater.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44448 Posts
February 04 2014 18:07 GMT
#16916
On February 05 2014 02:58 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".

Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed.


how do you guys know these kinds of things O.o

Well the amount of elements are fixed because transmutation of elements depends upon nuclear reactors and beyond the rather small scale science projects that hasn't happened since the stars that made the dust that became the earth. The elements we have on earth aren't about to change any time soon. The amount of each of them is a fixed number.

As for gold, we know more or less how much gold there is. Enough has been mined by this point that if it were divided up equally between every single person on earth we would each have $1200 worth. So the question regarding the scarcity of gold becomes "Do you ever plan to consume $1200 of gold? Do you know anyone that does? Do you think those billion Chinese people will each consume their $1200 of gold? If not, who exactly is using this gold?". It's not especially useful, especially not at its current price, it just sits in vaults with the people who own it hoping that they'll find some other guy with a vault who wants gold even more than them. And that guy is in turn hoping he can then find someone who wants it even more.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4769 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-04 18:14:59
February 04 2014 18:14 GMT
#16917
Buy gold necklace for Your wife/girlfriend and You do. ~1200$=~1oz=31g . Its not that much.

Saying that i have encoutered counterfeiting TiN with gold (as it is cheeper) so You have a point kinda.
Gold is overvalued true, but its industrial price wouldnt be super low either.
Pathetic Greta hater.
zusch
Profile Joined March 2011
United States73 Posts
February 04 2014 18:15 GMT
#16918
On February 05 2014 03:07 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2014 02:58 Roe wrote:
On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.

And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins".

Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed.


how do you guys know these kinds of things O.o

It's not especially useful, especially not at its current price, it just sits in vaults with the people who own it hoping that they'll find some other guy with a vault who wants gold even more than them. And that guy is in turn hoping he can then find someone who wants it even more.

When you think about it...aren't most products and commodities greater fools theories? That is why products and services come into existence and fade away just as quickly. When I was a kid I really wanted beanie babies, probably because everyone else wanted them. As beanie babies grew in popularity the price went up and some were valued at astronomical prices only to have them all crash back to earth. This is a common occurrence in capitalism and a free markets. Gold has withstood all this time as a item that has held its value, maybe now it is losing its value because it has finally reached the topping point of its demand. Maybe something else (I'd guess Bitcoin) will replace gold.
Mercy13
Profile Joined January 2011
United States718 Posts
February 04 2014 18:16 GMT
#16919
On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold?

Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be.


And how is that different from how paper currency is valued?
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5093 Posts
February 04 2014 18:17 GMT
#16920
On February 04 2014 18:27 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2014 18:20 Introvert wrote:
On February 04 2014 18:01 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 04 2014 17:41 Introvert wrote:
On February 04 2014 15:33 Danglars wrote:
Well, Seb40EPM, everybody who ran or said they were considering running in 2012 minus Mitt Romney (unless he changes his mind) and Cain. It's not the conservative party, it's the Republican party, my preferred candidates are the most conservative I hold any hope for.

Against a Biden or Clinton, I'd support a Cruz, Paul (Rand), Trump, Ryan, Gingrich. Longest of the long shots Bolton, Ben Carson, Huntsman, DeMint. If they decided to run, Cuccinelli, Issa, Jindal, Palin (Flame On!), Rubio, Walker, West, Bachmann.

I couldn't get behind a Christie, or a Huckabee, or many of the rest of possibilities I didn't mention. As good as Bush was on terrorism, he was a big government type that grew it and paved the way for some of Obama's excesses; I don't want another Bush. Christie's opposition to Obamacare was hardly present and that issue remains big in my mind.

Of course if Coolidge and Reagan are any indication, we should be due another conservative guy I REALLY like in 2030. I hope I'm not voting for "the other guy" sometime before then.



I like your choices, but then again who wouldn't I vote for instead of Hillary? It's kind of tainting the whole thing...

I'm kind of surprised, it would not have amazed me to find out I was the only one who would vote for Palin if it came down to it...
Paul Ryan has proven he's soft on some things (* cough* immigration *cough*), so I'd take Cruz or Paul before him.

Despite the conventional wisdom in this thread, I think either of them has a good shot at wining. Recall, everyone said Reagan "couldn't win", "look at what happened to Goldwater", etc. Good parallels too, Reagan made the establishment very angry when he ran in a primary against Ford. He lost, but it was hardly by a large margin (it was decent, but for a sitting president?)...I think they even blamed him for Ford's loss by dragging out the primary. Some interesting modern parallels can be made.

Cuccinelli would be good, but he lost the governors race, I don't think we'll see him this time.

Same- Christie and Huckabee are dead last.

We have people as least as conservative as Reagan and maybe even Coolidge now, and I think if Obamacare is bad enough, we'll get a conservative before 2030. I hope.


Don't drag me back in haha, I hear from Introvert you already hashed and rehashed it all so I'm backing out. I would necessarily defend my interpretation and re-issue what I find wrong with yours, and here I would be violating your own advice ... for I do feel very comfortable as well with my position.


I think I debated it with Roe? Or was it that other guy, DoubleReed? Anyway, it's been hashed out, though at the slightest prompting I would take it up again. I can't help it.

I meant more on the theme of who do you think it will be, not who would you vote for.
I think you have to try really really hard to think there will be a Reagan moment -- at the end of the day he was governor of California not a Southern state.



It will be interesting to see who the establishment will pick if Christie doesn't work. It might be Huckabee.

In terms of Conservatives- Cruz is running, as is Rand. We may see Walker as well. I think Ryan will be in it. I don't think Rubio will...his name was there for a while, but after the immigration debacle he lost a lot of pull. He might be the establishment choice if it comes down to it (to appease the Tea Party), but I think he's a little down the line. Jindal may run too. It's really early, so it's hard to tell. I'm not an expert so I look for the obvious like Christie, Paul, and Cruz.

Honestly, I can only say that 3 or 4 are for sure running right now.

As to the Reagan comment, I would just say that it's hard to know. He really was the last time the establishment was pushed this hard, so that's the main similarity I see. That and the general down feeling in the country.

Maybe it's because it's late, but I don't see what that last bit has to do with anything. Anyone can win, look at Obama. A one term senator plucked from obscurity. Cruz and Paul are not governors either, they are in similar positions to the one Obama was in. They don't need to be a high profile governor, they've already made their mark.

I think a "Reagan moment" is not for sure, but it is possible.



Ya but Obama also clearly is an excellent electioneer, whatever else you want to say about him the guy crushed the Clinton machine completely and utterly and then won one of the most improbable elections in '12. Ya the Republicans went out of their way to shoot themselves in the foot but he definitely wakes up for the elections. After that disaster show that was the GOP primary I wonder who would be as solid in the other side.


I think your assessment of the Obama campaign is quite good and is a valid point. Certainly no Republican is as charismatic as him or Reagan. Perhaps since we are no longer in the 20s, to get anyone who runs on a extreme agenda elected, one needs charisma. And I agree that neither Paul or Cruz has an overabundance of it... The great thing is though, Hillary doesn't either! So that isn't as much of an issue. Also, Obama was hardly invincible, his victory margin (in the popular vote) was much lower than 2008, and (I haven't checked the numbers on this) but if everyone who voted for McCain in '08 had actually voted in 2012 Romney could have won! (or been MUCH closer.) Which brings me to...

Out of interest:

What exactly did change since the last election when the republicans seemed to live in their own imaginationland were they had good chances?
Yeah, Obamacare implementation was bad, but so was the (useless) goverment shutdown and as far as i can tell the blame for the incapable congress also falls more on the republicans?
You also had problems getting Women to vote for you… Has this changed in any way? Did you get the hispanic vote back? What changed?

You just got wrecked 2 times due to having candidates that had to act way too conservative in the pre-elections and had to nominate vice presidential candidates that make « moderate » people cringe just to get the conservative vote (which reps would/should get anyway ?)…
Now your suggesting to get these hardliners on the ticket directly? When they allready most likely were a good enough reason for many people to not vote for McCain and Romney?


Who even remembers the government shutdown? Who is going to vote on it? I think Cruz is actually quite smart, Obamacare is going to be such a large issue both this year and 2016 that him being associated with the shutdown will be a great boon to him. He can say that he stood against it to the end when no one else (except Mike Lee) would.

I hate playing the group game- "can they get this group and that group?" Women, I don't know what to do about. Someone has to intelligently present the argument of small government and personal responsibility to those women who apparently vote on the issue of birth control, abortion, and the small wage gap.

For Hispanics, I think the Republicans won't win them for decades. Reagan granted amnesty in his last term and Bush Sr. still got a crappy percentage of the vote. The Democrats always manage to take credit for anything that benefits minorities. Ironic, considering their history.

I want to know what imagination land you live in that a party needs the majority of both groups to win.

Romney and McCain didn't lose because they were too conservative. Obama didn't win that way! He won by taking a far left tact and getting his vote out. He LOST the independent vote last time. But I don't even want to argue this point. In the world where most of TL seems to live, McCain and Romney were two extreme conservatives.

Due to "internet culture" I always take a liberal's assessment of candidate viability and what counts as "extreme" with a very large pallet of salt. When 90% of the people you interact agree with you, it can alter your perception on these issues.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
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