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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On February 05 2014 03:51 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:45 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim. Currency is only what you define it as. Right now "currency" is gov't paper controlled by one entity. The price of gold has gone up steadily as the money base has broadened...please get your facts straight. Seems you are very close to Austria...I suggest you try and take an Austrian economics class. I wish I had that opportunity, but universities in the States brainwash today's kids with Keynesian economics. I got my facts straight, I see absolutely nothing that you said that supports your previous statements and goes against what I claimed. Please get your arguments straight. I see no need to study the nonsense that is Austrian economic school. It is not seriously taught in neither in Austria neither in Czech. Closest you get to Austrian school is in US.
When you state that the price of gold is volatile, and I state that it is not. Only one side is right and the other side is wrong...doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that the price of gold has only gone up. By getting such a basic fact incorrect it really diminishes your credibility.
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On February 05 2014 03:58 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:51 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:45 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim. Currency is only what you define it as. Right now "currency" is gov't paper controlled by one entity. The price of gold has gone up steadily as the money base has broadened...please get your facts straight. Seems you are very close to Austria...I suggest you try and take an Austrian economics class. I wish I had that opportunity, but universities in the States brainwash today's kids with Keynesian economics. I got my facts straight, I see absolutely nothing that you said that supports your previous statements and goes against what I claimed. Please get your arguments straight. I see no need to study the nonsense that is Austrian economic school. It is not seriously taught in neither in Austria neither in Czech. Closest you get to Austrian school is in US. When you state that the price of gold is volatile, and I state that it is not. Only one side is right and the other side is wrong...doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that the price of gold has only gone up. By getting such a basic fact incorrect it really diminishes your credibility.
"gone up" last year was pretty well an annus horribilis for gold as it fell nearly 28%, just because it has gone up, doesn't mean it is going to continue to do so..... It has fallen in the past and it is a certainty it will fall at some point in the future.... And "going up" is in no way a measure of a lack of volatility....
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On February 05 2014 03:58 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:51 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:45 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim. Currency is only what you define it as. Right now "currency" is gov't paper controlled by one entity. The price of gold has gone up steadily as the money base has broadened...please get your facts straight. Seems you are very close to Austria...I suggest you try and take an Austrian economics class. I wish I had that opportunity, but universities in the States brainwash today's kids with Keynesian economics. I got my facts straight, I see absolutely nothing that you said that supports your previous statements and goes against what I claimed. Please get your arguments straight. I see no need to study the nonsense that is Austrian economic school. It is not seriously taught in neither in Austria neither in Czech. Closest you get to Austrian school is in US. When you state that the price of gold is volatile, and I state that it is not. Only one side is right and the other side is wrong...doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that the price of gold has only gone up. By getting such a basic fact incorrect it really diminishes your credibility.
???
Edit:KwarK edited your post to make it work
![[image loading]](http://s27.postimg.org/7j5h087z7/7533_C368_C32556_FE.png)
open source screen capture
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On February 05 2014 03:58 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:51 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:45 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:On February 05 2014 02:49 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Gold isn't even slightly scarce. We have far more than we consume. The amount of pretty much anything in circulation is fixed. scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim. Currency is only what you define it as. Right now "currency" is gov't paper controlled by one entity. The price of gold has gone up steadily as the money base has broadened...please get your facts straight. Seems you are very close to Austria...I suggest you try and take an Austrian economics class. I wish I had that opportunity, but universities in the States brainwash today's kids with Keynesian economics. I got my facts straight, I see absolutely nothing that you said that supports your previous statements and goes against what I claimed. Please get your arguments straight. I see no need to study the nonsense that is Austrian economic school. It is not seriously taught in neither in Austria neither in Czech. Closest you get to Austrian school is in US. When you state that the price of gold is volatile, and I state that it is not. Only one side is right and the other side is wrong...doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that the price of gold has only gone up. By getting such a basic fact incorrect it really diminishes your credibility.
I hope you understand that going up is also movement of price, not stable. But my statement was not related to last few years. Last few years mean nothing in relation to your claims. I specifically used "in history". And on that count I am correct and you are wrong, or are you saying that for you history started in 2011 ?
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ForAmerica, a conservative nonprofit group, told CNN Tuesday that it will push to get rid of the Republican party's current leadership team in Congress with a petition and digital advertisements.
"Time and again, year after year, the Republican leadership in the House and Senate has come to grassroots conservatives, and Tea Party supporters pleading for our money, our volunteers, our time, our energy and our votes," ForAmerica Chairman Brent Bozell said in a statement to CNN. "In return they have repeatedly promised not just to stop the liberal assault on our freedoms and our national treasury, but to advance our conservative agenda. It's been years. There is not a single conservative accomplishment this so-called 'leadership' can point to."
The group told CNN that they will run digital ads targeting House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) and Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.), as well as Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and Minority Whip John Cornyn (R-Texas).
Concurrent to the ads is a petition push on the group's Facebook page and website.
Source
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United States43972 Posts
There's only so much you can do to push their agenda when their agenda is a minority agenda in the country. They shouldn't blame the politicians when they're victims of their own unpopularity.
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On February 05 2014 04:03 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:58 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:51 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:45 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim. Currency is only what you define it as. Right now "currency" is gov't paper controlled by one entity. The price of gold has gone up steadily as the money base has broadened...please get your facts straight. Seems you are very close to Austria...I suggest you try and take an Austrian economics class. I wish I had that opportunity, but universities in the States brainwash today's kids with Keynesian economics. I got my facts straight, I see absolutely nothing that you said that supports your previous statements and goes against what I claimed. Please get your arguments straight. I see no need to study the nonsense that is Austrian economic school. It is not seriously taught in neither in Austria neither in Czech. Closest you get to Austrian school is in US. When you state that the price of gold is volatile, and I state that it is not. Only one side is right and the other side is wrong...doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that the price of gold has only gone up. By getting such a basic fact incorrect it really diminishes your credibility. "gone up" last year was pretty well an annus horribilis for gold as it fell nearly 25%, just because it has gone up, doesn't mean it is going to continue to do so..... It has fallen in the past and it is a certainty it will fall at some point in the future.... And "going up" is in no way a measure of a lack of volatility....
So are we looking at gold prices historically or in just the last year? In the last year there has been a divergence in money supply and the price of gold. I attribute that to what KwarK was talking about (who also either didn't see my last response about greater fools theory to him or is declining to respond to me) when he said Central banks are hoarding it in their vaults. I theorize that gold has been sold on the open market by central banks to begin to pay down their enormous debts. They are doing this because they realize as a result of their hoarding, the price of gold has become overpriced. See again: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-24/year-later-bundesbank-has-repatriated-only-37-tons-gold-700-total
Volatility is defined as: A statistical measure of the dispersion of returns for a given security or market index. Volatility can either be measured by using the standard deviation or variance between returns from that same security or market index. Commonly, the higher the volatility, the riskier the security. (Investopedia). When something is going up or down in a straight line, it is not volatile. Instead, when prices jump up down, up down, up down...that is volatility.
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On February 05 2014 04:03 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:58 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:51 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:45 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
scarce in the sense that the amount of gold will not significantly increase anymore. Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim. Currency is only what you define it as. Right now "currency" is gov't paper controlled by one entity. The price of gold has gone up steadily as the money base has broadened...please get your facts straight. Seems you are very close to Austria...I suggest you try and take an Austrian economics class. I wish I had that opportunity, but universities in the States brainwash today's kids with Keynesian economics. I got my facts straight, I see absolutely nothing that you said that supports your previous statements and goes against what I claimed. Please get your arguments straight. I see no need to study the nonsense that is Austrian economic school. It is not seriously taught in neither in Austria neither in Czech. Closest you get to Austrian school is in US. When you state that the price of gold is volatile, and I state that it is not. Only one side is right and the other side is wrong...doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that the price of gold has only gone up. By getting such a basic fact incorrect it really diminishes your credibility. ??? Edit:KwarK edited your post to make it work open source screen capture
I'm guessing that is a chart adjusted for inflation. We can all find charts that support our arguments.
http://www.usagold.com/reference/prices/2013goldprice.jpg
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The gold price is almost irrelevant to anything however. The only thing you need to understand is that fiat currency is not stable in any way shape or form because of the debts issuing countries have built up. The mountain of debt cannot build forever and freshly printed currency cannot payoff debt.
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On February 05 2014 04:28 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 04:03 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:58 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:51 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:45 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:35 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 03:28 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:20 mcc wrote:On February 05 2014 02:54 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Gold is so valuable because it's scarce and the amount of gold in circulation is practically fixed. Also it's a long and well established currency.
And please stop this currency conspiracy nonsense, the government isn't "scared of Bitcoins". Government is scared of losing their monopoly on the money supply and losing tax revenue. Not really a conspiracy as much as a logical conclusion. Taxation has nothing to do with this issue. Government has no problem taxing things without the currency. Do you think that if you do business in gold that IRS will not come after you if you do not pay taxes ? On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And the same is true for the "fiat" currency and goods valued in it. Gold suffers the same problems as "fiat" currency and brings multiple new ones. It gives absolutely no benefit. On February 05 2014 03:01 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 02:57 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Nor will the amount of iron. There's less gold than iron on earth but there's less iridium on earth than gold. Scarcity is relative to consumption and consumption of gold is pretty low. I don't believe Nyxisto is arguing that the price of gold should be higher and I'm not arguing that either. I'm simply arguing that with fiat currency it is impossible to value assets correctly, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future, which is why economic growth (with the exception of Asian countries) have been so stagnant. The same is true for gold to the same extent. 1) IRS will try to come for taxes using Bitcoin transactions but it is still to be seen if they can actually do that. 2) See my post to Mercy13. The only advantage of paper to currency to gold is that it is more easily transported (which is why bank notes were created). 3) No. Advantage of paper currency is the fact that it is fiat and uphold by a strong party - government. I see no benefit in having to manage 2 grams of gold. Light wind and all your money are gone, woops. Of course you can solve it today with banks and electronic payments, but the problematic state of you owning microscopic amounts of currency remains. And if you plan to argue that you can barter with other things, than at that point you lost all the benefits of currency. ad 3) Gold in its history was pretty volatile and unpredictable. So no to your unsubstantiated claim. Currency is only what you define it as. Right now "currency" is gov't paper controlled by one entity. The price of gold has gone up steadily as the money base has broadened...please get your facts straight. Seems you are very close to Austria...I suggest you try and take an Austrian economics class. I wish I had that opportunity, but universities in the States brainwash today's kids with Keynesian economics. I got my facts straight, I see absolutely nothing that you said that supports your previous statements and goes against what I claimed. Please get your arguments straight. I see no need to study the nonsense that is Austrian economic school. It is not seriously taught in neither in Austria neither in Czech. Closest you get to Austrian school is in US. When you state that the price of gold is volatile, and I state that it is not. Only one side is right and the other side is wrong...doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that the price of gold has only gone up. By getting such a basic fact incorrect it really diminishes your credibility. ??? Edit:KwarK edited your post to make it work open source screen capture I'm guessing that is a chart adjusted for inflation. We can all find charts that support our arguments. [img]http://www.usagold.com/reference/prices/2013goldprice.jpg[img] [/url]
You "guess" it's adjusted for inflation? Of course it's adjusted for inflation... a graph measuring the change of value in USD is meaningless if it isn't adjusted for inflation.
Also, I would note that your chart, which comes from a website that is trying to convince people to buy gold coins, demonstrates that the price of gold is highly volatile, and doesn't support your contention that "the price of gold has only gone up."
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On February 05 2014 04:32 Mercy13 wrote:
You "guess" it's adjusted for inflation? Of course it's adjusted for inflation... a graph measuring the change of value in USD is meaningless if it isn't adjusted for inflation.
Also, I would note that your chart, which comes from a website that is trying to convince people to buy gold coins, demonstrates that the price of gold is highly volatile, and doesn't support your contention that "the price of gold has only gone up."
I was speaking of the price of gold in nominal terms. Adjusting the price for inflation only measures the price of gold relative to other goods during the same period of time.
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On February 05 2014 04:31 zusch wrote:
The gold price is almost irrelevant to anything however. The only thing you need to understand is that fiat currency is not stable in any way shape or form because of the debts issuing countries have built up. The mountain of debt cannot build forever and freshly printed currency cannot payoff debt.
You just said that money have no value at all, what's the value of a debt in that money ?
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On February 05 2014 04:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +ForAmerica, a conservative nonprofit group, told CNN Tuesday that it will push to get rid of the Republican party's current leadership team in Congress with a petition and digital advertisements.
"Time and again, year after year, the Republican leadership in the House and Senate has come to grassroots conservatives, and Tea Party supporters pleading for our money, our volunteers, our time, our energy and our votes," ForAmerica Chairman Brent Bozell said in a statement to CNN. "In return they have repeatedly promised not just to stop the liberal assault on our freedoms and our national treasury, but to advance our conservative agenda. It's been years. There is not a single conservative accomplishment this so-called 'leadership' can point to."
The group told CNN that they will run digital ads targeting House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) and Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.), as well as Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and Minority Whip John Cornyn (R-Texas).
Concurrent to the ads is a petition push on the group's Facebook page and website. Source
A few months ago I had thought that the old guard had reined those uppity youngsters in but I guess the tea party wave is taller then I thought.
Nytimes ran an article a couple days ago about how the tea party was getting higher returns from fundraising while Crossroads GPS and other old guard fundraisers were pulling in less.
If this trend continues it could result in a serious split in the party, and by my reading that will just create an enormous opportunity for the Dems come 2016
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On February 05 2014 04:49 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 04:32 Mercy13 wrote:
You "guess" it's adjusted for inflation? Of course it's adjusted for inflation... a graph measuring the change of value in USD is meaningless if it isn't adjusted for inflation.
Also, I would note that your chart, which comes from a website that is trying to convince people to buy gold coins, demonstrates that the price of gold is highly volatile, and doesn't support your contention that "the price of gold has only gone up."
I was speaking of the price of gold in nominal terms. Adjusting the price for inflation only measures the price of gold relative to other goods during the same period of time.
I'm sorry, but I think you should learn some basic economics, finance, and numbers before continuing to discuss this subject. You aren't making any sense.
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On February 05 2014 04:57 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 04:49 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 04:32 Mercy13 wrote:
You "guess" it's adjusted for inflation? Of course it's adjusted for inflation... a graph measuring the change of value in USD is meaningless if it isn't adjusted for inflation.
Also, I would note that your chart, which comes from a website that is trying to convince people to buy gold coins, demonstrates that the price of gold is highly volatile, and doesn't support your contention that "the price of gold has only gone up."
I was speaking of the price of gold in nominal terms. Adjusting the price for inflation only measures the price of gold relative to other goods during the same period of time. I'm sorry, but I think you should learn some basic economics, finance, and numbers before continuing to discuss this subject. You aren't making any sense.
Well to be fair that makes some sense. If the value of the US - Dollar doubles, the cost for a specific amount of gold in dollar will half. That doesn't mean that gold suddenly is less valuable, it just means that the exchange rates changed.
In terms of purchasing power gold pretty much is as stable as it gets.
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On February 05 2014 04:57 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 04:49 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 04:32 Mercy13 wrote:
You "guess" it's adjusted for inflation? Of course it's adjusted for inflation... a graph measuring the change of value in USD is meaningless if it isn't adjusted for inflation.
Also, I would note that your chart, which comes from a website that is trying to convince people to buy gold coins, demonstrates that the price of gold is highly volatile, and doesn't support your contention that "the price of gold has only gone up."
I was speaking of the price of gold in nominal terms. Adjusting the price for inflation only measures the price of gold relative to other goods during the same period of time. I'm sorry, but I think you should learn some basic economics, finance, and numbers before continuing to discuss this subject. You aren't making any sense.
I know plenty, but not everything. I also know that every blip in the economic picture cannot be explained and formulated down to an exact figure. Inflation is not an exact science as you don't seem to understand. This is the downfall of scholars (particularly the Keynesians who believe they can tinker and adjust the economy so it operates to maximum efficiency. Unfortunately that is impossible and there is always unintended consequences.
As a professional asset trader, I only deal with nominal terms...that is what determines your profit and loss. The price of gold in 1970 was under $100. Today it is over $1200.
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On February 05 2014 04:49 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 04:32 Mercy13 wrote:
You "guess" it's adjusted for inflation? Of course it's adjusted for inflation... a graph measuring the change of value in USD is meaningless if it isn't adjusted for inflation.
Also, I would note that your chart, which comes from a website that is trying to convince people to buy gold coins, demonstrates that the price of gold is highly volatile, and doesn't support your contention that "the price of gold has only gone up."
I was speaking of the price of gold in nominal terms. Adjusting the price for inflation only measures the price of gold relative to other goods during the same period of time.
So you're speaking of the price of gold using terms that can't measure its volatility as a currency... in order to prove that it isn't volatile?
An effective tactic if you're talking to high schoolers.
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On February 05 2014 05:04 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 04:57 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 04:49 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 04:32 Mercy13 wrote:
You "guess" it's adjusted for inflation? Of course it's adjusted for inflation... a graph measuring the change of value in USD is meaningless if it isn't adjusted for inflation.
Also, I would note that your chart, which comes from a website that is trying to convince people to buy gold coins, demonstrates that the price of gold is highly volatile, and doesn't support your contention that "the price of gold has only gone up."
I was speaking of the price of gold in nominal terms. Adjusting the price for inflation only measures the price of gold relative to other goods during the same period of time. I'm sorry, but I think you should learn some basic economics, finance, and numbers before continuing to discuss this subject. You aren't making any sense. I know plenty, but not everything. I also know that every blip in the economic picture cannot be explained and formulated down to an exact figure. Inflation is not an exact science as you don't seem to understand. This is the downfall of scholars (particularly the Keynesians who believe they can tinker and adjust the economy so it operates to maximum efficiency. Unfortunately that is impossible and there is always unintended consequences. As a professional asset trader, I only deal with nominal terms...that is what determines your profit and loss. The price of gold in 1970 was under $100. Today it is over $1200.
In 1970 my granddad went to college for $500 a semester. Today at the same college you pay over $7000 per semester.
College tuition is obviously a better currency, as it increased 14x where gold only increased 12x.
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On February 05 2014 03:24 zusch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:16 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 03:05 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 03:02 Mercy13 wrote:
So how do you value gold? Gold is valued by the collective opinions of all market participants, like any commodity or asset class should be. And how is that different from how paper currency is valued? Paper currency cannot be accurately valued because a tiny group of individuals (not all market participants) are in charge of how much is out there. They can change the amount at any time without notice. When they do this they send ripples (or shockwaves) throughout the entire economy that produces unintended consequences.
Just send me all your worthless, valueless paper currency then.
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On February 05 2014 05:04 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 04:57 Mercy13 wrote:On February 05 2014 04:49 zusch wrote:On February 05 2014 04:32 Mercy13 wrote:
You "guess" it's adjusted for inflation? Of course it's adjusted for inflation... a graph measuring the change of value in USD is meaningless if it isn't adjusted for inflation.
Also, I would note that your chart, which comes from a website that is trying to convince people to buy gold coins, demonstrates that the price of gold is highly volatile, and doesn't support your contention that "the price of gold has only gone up."
I was speaking of the price of gold in nominal terms. Adjusting the price for inflation only measures the price of gold relative to other goods during the same period of time. I'm sorry, but I think you should learn some basic economics, finance, and numbers before continuing to discuss this subject. You aren't making any sense. Well to be fair that makes some sense. If the value of the US - Dollar doubles, the cost for a specific amount of gold in dollar will half. That doesn't mean that gold suddenly is less valuable, it just means that the exchange rates changed. In terms of purchasing power gold pretty much is as stable as it gets.
In nominal terms, yes. But this is why it's important to view the price of gold in real terms, correct?
Edit: By real, I mean inflation adjusted.
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EPT
